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Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

I'd be interested to see how things would change with fixed lists. I agree, it's not as much "your guys" then, but to me fixed table set ups are just as limiting, and if you're going to try and fix a balance problem, I can't see that fixed tables do a better job than fixed lists.

I am of the opinion that mid to mid high, list building is a major factor in 40K tournaments, and player skill only becomes really important at higher levels.

I'd say if you were interested in seeing who was the better player, fixed lists would be the best way of doing that. But 40K tournaments are not really about finding the best player, they're about meeting up and playing lots of games against a variety of people. So I just find the fixed terrain set ups a bit weird given that context - why pretend it makes the game balanced when it totally doesn't?

If there was a fixed list tournament, I'd be really interested to play to be honest. I think it'd be really refreshing.

   
Made in us
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Gathering the Informations.

 AngryAngel80 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 AngryAngel80 wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
God, I despise that Tumblr style artwork that they keep pushing. The sooner it dies off the better.



This may incite some nerd rage but I still think that is part of what they want to do. Make it a total kids game and then be even more mainstream, makes logical business sense. I think it sucks, but it is what it is.


I think you're reading too much into it, it's more just a fun cartoon style.


You can think what you want on it, but if I'm right it'll feel pretty bad and if you are it is me over reaching. For what its worth I hope you are correct, I just don't think so and that makes me sad.

People have been saying the same nonsense you've posted for years. Possibly even decades.

It hasn't happened yet.
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




 Kanluwen wrote:
 AngryAngel80 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 AngryAngel80 wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
God, I despise that Tumblr style artwork that they keep pushing. The sooner it dies off the better.



This may incite some nerd rage but I still think that is part of what they want to do. Make it a total kids game and then be even more mainstream, makes logical business sense. I think it sucks, but it is what it is.


I think you're reading too much into it, it's more just a fun cartoon style.


You can think what you want on it, but if I'm right it'll feel pretty bad and if you are it is me over reaching. For what its worth I hope you are correct, I just don't think so and that makes me sad.

People have been saying the same nonsense you've posted for years. Possibly even decades.

It hasn't happened yet.


Interestingly I have just got back from local GW store where I was informed that once they are allowed to restart play in store, in a directive from higher management they will no longer be having any game days or pick up games in store. Instead when they have nights open they will be dedicated to the school and scout clubs, and during the day intro games only.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/25 14:53:44


 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





The art on the website is the art on the website. It doesn't affect the art in the books.

The art in Angels of Death, the Art in Hammer and Bolter... This are things that have also been suggested might not be "Grim Dark Enough" - IMHO they were. But even so, they too are self contained.

As for kids appeal: yes, GW markets for young people IN ADDITION to marketing to adults. There are comics and BL books for kids, but that doesn't interfere with regular BL offerings.

This is common: examine one facet of 40k under a microscope, extend that analysis to other elements outside the focus of the examination to prove that GW is terrible.

Talk ONLY about 2k matched, and use that to say the whole game sucks.

Talk about images that appear only on the website, and use that to prove we're becoming too kid friendly.

Here's a news flash: GW is marketing to EVERYONE. Yes, this does mean that a) some of that marketing will not appeal to you and b) some of that marketing was actually not designed to appeal to you.

   
Made in us
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 Mezmorki wrote:
I thank my lucky stars that I'm NOT a competitive 40K player. Looking at the map setups and how much they talk them up makes me want to puke.

Such a key and interesting skill in the game is reading the table layout, which should be asymmetric IMHO, and thinking through how you you'll utilize either side.

Ideally, part of playing a 40K game, even a competitive one, should include a process for players to alternate setting up terrain pieces and creating a board. Then players roll off to pick sides. The player that picks sides deploys first. Then the the other player gets to decide if they want to go first or not.


Player placed terrain in competitive play is actually a thing. ITC has been experimenting with players setting up the terrain in their half of the boards in alternating turns prior to deployment. The point being that fixed terrain arrangements don't work for the full variety of missions and different armies also benefitting from or inhibited by certain terrain features in different ways.
   
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 Da Boss wrote:
If you were really interested in a competitive test of skill you'd have mirror armies way before you'd need mirror terrain. The army selection has a much greater influence on the outcome than the terrain.


Maybe in an AA game like Chess. Your consideration is basically skew, but there's a whole lot less skew in 9th.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
tneva82 wrote:
If you want competive you need to stop gw games. Any game using gw rules is non competive by definition.


I don't think you have the correct definition of competitive.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/25 15:40:34


   
Made in us
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San Jose, CA

tneva82 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:


If you want competive you need to stop gw games. Any game using gw rules is non competive by definition.


Bingo...

When a game is expressly designed NOT to be competitive, unsurprisingly it doesn't work as one.

   
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Between Alpha and Omega, and a little to the left

 Daedalus81 wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
If you want competive you need to stop gw games. Any game using gw rules is non competive by definition.


I don't think you have the correct definition of competitive.

I agree with you, Daedalus. I've said this before, but the idea of a game being made for competition is an incredibly recent concept. most sports started as means to waste time tossing a ball around or encourage athleticism, most games that have e-sports scene starts as the developers making a fun game that turned out to be well balanced enough and engaging.

If people want to try and make a competitive scene, I think they should if they find some enjoyment out of it. There's something to discuss on how it should be done, but the idea that it can't be done or shouldn't is objectively wrong and there are worse things people can try to get better at than 40k.

Want to help support my plastic addiction? I sell stories about humans fighting to survive in a space age frontier.
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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Fixed terrain seems reasonable to me because its something players can factor into your list building and practice games.

The terrain is there to try and balance the game. Because otherwise you get back to the bad side of old ITC lists - i.e. "my army is designed to do 40%+ of its points worth of damage in a turn, I expect to have largely tabled my opponent by turn 2 or be tabled by turn 2, the end". Which isn't fun or especially interesting - its just rolling the dice.

Now this generally where people say GW should rebalance the game so stuff isn't that lethal - and therefore armies wouldn't reliably kill 1000 odd points of stuff if they were to deploy on planet bowling ball. We wouldn't need terrain conveniently scattered around so lots of units can be hidden from their natural predators if the player so chooses. But tournament organisers have to work with what we have - and this is considerably easier than engaging in big rewrites of the rules that will almost never command universal acceptance.
   
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 Nevelon wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
pelicaniforce wrote:
 Da Boss wrote:


If you were really interested in a competitive test of skill you'd have mirror armies way before you'd need mirror terrain. The army selection has a much greater influence on the outcome than the terrain.


I know this is rhetorical but I’m totally in favor of standardized competition lists. We know that competition lists already have nothing to do with the background.



I think that sort of mirror match would be interesting as an exercise in generalmanship. With equal armies you take that variable out of the equation. What’s left is luck and player skill. Which is more prevalent is a huge can of worms I’ve seen argued over before ad nausium.


what like "a space marine competive army consists of 3 squads of intercessors, with ten marines each, a squad of assault marines of 5 men, a 3 man outrider squad, 1 hellblaster and 1 devestator squad" etc?


See, IMHO, I don't think this style of "mirror match" would work that well either. If the terrain is symmetrical, objectives symmetrical, armies symmetrical, then what's left is even MORE reliant on random die rolls, in particular who deploys first, who gets the first turn, etc. Given that 40K isn't that deep of a game, in a mirror match playing to the objectives would suggest a fairly optimal line of play, which both players would identify and pursue. At which point it's literally just who rolls better.

What is "generalship" in 40K if not an ability o leverage asymmetric forces fighting on an asymmetric battlefield and taking calculated risks to secure asymmetric objectives. The more you asymmetry you remove the more you make it like chess with die rolls, which is dumb.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/25 20:03:48


Want a better 40K?
Check out ProHammer: Classic - An Awesomely Unified Ruleset for 3rd - 7th Edition 40K... for retro 40k feels!
 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





MaleficentRuler wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
 AngryAngel80 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 AngryAngel80 wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
God, I despise that Tumblr style artwork that they keep pushing. The sooner it dies off the better.



This may incite some nerd rage but I still think that is part of what they want to do. Make it a total kids game and then be even more mainstream, makes logical business sense. I think it sucks, but it is what it is.


I think you're reading too much into it, it's more just a fun cartoon style.


You can think what you want on it, but if I'm right it'll feel pretty bad and if you are it is me over reaching. For what its worth I hope you are correct, I just don't think so and that makes me sad.

People have been saying the same nonsense you've posted for years. Possibly even decades.

It hasn't happened yet.


Interestingly I have just got back from local GW store where I was informed that once they are allowed to restart play in store, in a directive from higher management they will no longer be having any game days or pick up games in store. Instead when they have nights open they will be dedicated to the school and scout clubs, and during the day intro games only.


If my local store starts doing that I'll just travel the extra mile to buy from a local non-GW store. I've always belived in "pay where you play"

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
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Gathering the Informations.

MaleficentRuler wrote:

Interestingly I have just got back from local GW store where I was informed that once they are allowed to restart play in store, in a directive from higher management they will no longer be having any game days or pick up games in store. Instead when they have nights open they will be dedicated to the school and scout clubs, and during the day intro games only.

Okay, so what?

"Game Days" or "Pick Up Games" can mean a lot of things...and did ya ever think that the "directive from higher management" is because there are school and scout clubs in the area?

And right now? I can't blame them for setting things up to be more or less "scheduled" events. Because I'm assuming that "nights open" refers to them not shutting down organized gameplay nights, correct?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:

If my local store starts doing that I'll just travel the extra mile to buy from a local non-GW store. I've always belived in "pay where you play"

Truthfully, I don't see an issue with this. "Pick up games" tend to be a rare thing in my experience, mostly centralized around "guy came into the shop with collection and just hangs out until someone shows up and happens to also be looking for a game".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/25 20:20:44


 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




 Kanluwen wrote:
MaleficentRuler wrote:

Interestingly I have just got back from local GW store where I was informed that once they are allowed to restart play in store, in a directive from higher management they will no longer be having any game days or pick up games in store. Instead when they have nights open they will be dedicated to the school and scout clubs, and during the day intro games only.

Okay, so what?

"Game Days" or "Pick Up Games" can mean a lot of things...and did ya ever think that the "directive from higher management" is because there are school and scout clubs in the area?

And right now? I can't blame them for setting things up to be more or less "scheduled" events. Because I'm assuming that "nights open" refers to them not shutting down organized gameplay nights, correct?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:

If my local store starts doing that I'll just travel the extra mile to buy from a local non-GW store. I've always belived in "pay where you play"

Truthfully, I don't see an issue with this. "Pick up games" tend to be a rare thing in my experience, mostly centralized around "guy came into the shop with collection and just hangs out until someone shows up and happens to also be looking for a game".


Its an issue for me mainly because the local GW was the only store in the area that had play in store, was the main place we met new people to play.

I understand the business logic as it was explained to me, Friday game nights and tournament weekends basically added very little to nothing in the way of extra sales, so the local area has decided to cut all game nights, organised play etc that is not school or scout related as they bring in more new players and thus higher sales. So the only play in store will be intro games during the day and then School/Scout events on an evening. No more game nights, no organised play or even paint space in store that is not for teaching new players.


   
Made in ca
Charing Cold One Knight





 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Adrassil wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
God, I despise that Tumblr style artwork that they keep pushing. The sooner it dies off the better.


My thoughts exactly. It really seems to infantilise Warhammer too much in my eyes.


It's just art that is attractive for social media. You aren't going to get far promoting Warhammer with Grimdark 100% of the time on Facebook.


Plus this type of art is much easier and quicker to push out than some high-end illustration.

I personally don't mind the art. Actually enjoy it to be honest and really don't understand why people are nitpicking about some community article art.

As for kids appeal: yes, GW markets for young people IN ADDITION to marketing to adults.


Exactly.

I find it disturbing how many people here act as if they were never young kids who might have got their first fix in Warhammer at a young age.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Galas wrote:
When people complaint about this community and social network artwork I don't know if they don't remember how older RULEBOOKS for fantasy had a ton of funny little drawings in the border of the pages of elfs, dwarfs, goblins, orcs, etc... doing silly stuff.

And it never detracted from the "fluff" of the setting. Is not the "whole direction" of the setting and nothing points out in that direction. Just grumpy people being grumpy.


They just conveniently forgot that they were young once. It sometimes happens to us old folks.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/25 20:54:54


 
   
Made in us
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The dark hollows of Kentucky

I don't think there's any danger of gw "kiddyfieing" 40k. I don't have any 9th edition codexes yet, but I do have the BRB and Compendium, and the lore in them hasn't been sugacoated. How do you make a setting with chainsaw weapons and guns that fire bullets that explode inside their targets bodies kid friendly?
   
Made in ca
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 Gadzilla666 wrote:
I don't think there's any danger of gw "kiddyfieing" 40k. I don't have any 9th edition codexes yet, but I do have the BRB and Compendium, and the lore in them hasn't been sugacoated. How do you make a setting with chainsaw weapons and guns that fire bullets that explode inside their targets bodies kid friendly?



You say that like it DOESN'T appeal to the ten year old in you

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
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 Gadzilla666 wrote:
I don't think there's any danger of gw "kiddyfieing" 40k. I don't have any 9th edition codexes yet, but I do have the BRB and Compendium, and the lore in them hasn't been sugacoated. How do you make a setting with chainsaw weapons and guns that fire bullets that explode inside their targets bodies kid friendly?


To be fair, that sounds like a kid's fantasy of how guns work (and a frankly bizarre misconception of how chainsaws work that could only come from someone who's never touched one and has ALSO never been introduced to high school physics).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/26 01:26:18


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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 Da Boss wrote:
I'd be interested to see how things would change with fixed lists. I agree, it's not as much "your guys" then

Except we know that tournament lists are frequently not “your guys.” There’s endless tuning for rules, swapping attack bikes with eradicators, characters, relics.

Whereas if each faction gets one predetermined list, then each players’ army is definitely “their guys” because there’s a 1:1 hobby comparison between your guys and every other army from that faction.




 Mezmorki wrote:

See, IMHO, I don't think this style of "mirror match" would work that well either. If the terrain is symmetrical, objectives symmetrical, armies symmetrical, then what's left is even MORE reliant on random die rolls, in particular who deploys first, who gets the first turn, etc. Given that 40K isn't that deep of a game, in a mirror match playing to the objectives would suggest a fairly optimal line of play, which both players would identify and pursue. At which point it's literally just who rolls better.

What is "generalship" in 40K if not an ability o leverage asymmetric forces fighting on an asymmetric battlefield and taking calculated risks to secure asymmetric objectives. The more you asymmetry you remove the more you make it like chess with die rolls, which is dumb.


If there are preset lists you still don’t control what faction you’re facing.

And it also gives more “your guys.” You can have proper asymmetrical scenarios, where everyone gets rounds attacking and defending. Then at the end, you can say that you and your specific models of blue-and-yellow Eldar were better than anyone else’s identical Eldar, and better than the Ultramarines, at defending the ultramarines’ polar fortress, and better than anyone else at attacking it.

And yes it’s connected to preset lists because the point is a 1:1 comparison.
   
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San Jose, CA

Voss wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
I don't think there's any danger of gw "kiddyfieing" 40k. I don't have any 9th edition codexes yet, but I do have the BRB and Compendium, and the lore in them hasn't been sugacoated. How do you make a setting with chainsaw weapons and guns that fire bullets that explode inside their targets bodies kid friendly?


To be fair, that sounds like a kid's fantasy of how guns work (and a frankly bizarre misconception of how chainsaws work that could only come from someone who's never touched one and has ALSO never been introduced to high school physics).

40k is not concerned with your rudimentary understanding of physics...SPACE MAGIC FTW!!!!!!
   
Made in us
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MaleficentRuler wrote:


Interestingly I have just got back from local GW store where I was informed that once they are allowed to restart play in store, in a directive from higher management they will no longer be having any game days or pick up games in store. Instead when they have nights open they will be dedicated to the school and scout clubs, and during the day intro games only.


Oh look, it's the GW policy from roughly 10-15ish years ago. Wondered where you had got to little guy!

What has happened before, will happen again...



A GW fan walks into a bar, buys the same drink as yesterday but pays more.

""Unite" is a human word, ... join me or die."

If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them. 
   
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Lit By the Flames of Prospero






I mean the only things my regular FLGS is doing is pre-arranged FOW or X-Wing events. No drop in gaming or even pre-booking a table. The local GW is doing something similar where its intro games only just now.
Instead of assuming it's some evil plot Grimtuff, have you considered that Head Office doesn't want to close it's stores because of Covid outbreaks? More controlled events allow for greater safety of both the staff and customers.
   
Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

Warhammer is a game for children though? Kinda always has been? It's enjoyed by adults too, but it's not specifically marketed at adults.

   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Da Boss wrote:
Warhammer is a game for children though?
People use the AdMech Codex for bed-time stories rather than reading regular kids books.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
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On the Internet

 Galas wrote:
When people complaint about this community and social network artwork I don't know if they don't remember how older RULEBOOKS for fantasy had a ton of funny little drawings in the border of the pages of elfs, dwarfs, goblins, orcs, etc... doing silly stuff.

And it never detracted from the "fluff" of the setting. Is not the "whole direction" of the setting and nothing points out in that direction. Just grumpy people being grumpy.
Honestly I thought it added to the setting because small bits of levity keep the grimdark from becoming so standard that it becomes boring. You need highs or all the lows just become a flate plane. Like Kansas.
   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

This thread was about Metawatch, and now people have spent most of its length arguing about a silly cartoon drawing.


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
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On the Internet

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
This thread was about Metawatch, and now people have spent most of its length arguing about a silly cartoon drawing.


Let me sum up GW's Metawatch articles:
   
Made in ca
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I mean I think the real fun of metawatch is how they try to justify that stance

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
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On the Internet

BrianDavion wrote:
I mean I think the real fun of metawatch is how they try to justify that stance

True. Goonhammer dropping a metawatch article the same day as their last one was extra hilarious.

It feels like someone decided the WHC team needed to address balance concerns without the dev team being involved and this was the best way to do it since competetive 40k likes talking about army stats all the time. Problem is that none of them have a real solid grasp on how to present data, much less provide anything insightful from it. Shame because this sort of thing with the studio team discussing the trends they're seeing or abuse they want to correct could be good. But the execution is bad because the goal is marketting, not game health.

Then again if they cared about game health we'd see dev notes about intent in the FAQs instead of "yes" and "no" answers to multipart questions.

EDIT: This isn't to say GW doesn't see worth in making the game more competetive (they did put Pete Foley in charge and he was basically the only comp player in the studio at the time) but it's clear that they don't have the manpower behind the FAQs or points costing of things in timely manners which just causes more issues than it fixes.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/27 01:18:28


 
   
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The dark hollows of Kentucky

BrianDavion wrote:
I mean I think the real fun of metawatch is how they try to justify that stance

Hmm. Kinda like watching a car race just to see the crashes?
   
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Noctis Labyrinthus

 Adrassil wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
God, I despise that Tumblr style artwork that they keep pushing. The sooner it dies off the better.


My thoughts exactly. It really seems to infantilise Warhammer too much in my eyes.


Yeah I don't like the insinuation that there's anything childish about me collecting and painting a bunch of toys that appeal to boyish notions of coolness and masculinity.
   
 
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