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The Warpcoven is very different compared to the usual TSons team, having more sorcerers with more varied psychic powers available to it. Different ploys etc. as well. It's not a replacement, just like the Veteran Guardsmen team isn't a replacement for Imperial Guard. They just emphasize different themes within a faction.

Beyond that, why exactly would you desire a stricter line for what's KT stuff and what's 40k, when the cross compatibility of kits and bits is the core of the whole enterprise? KT is for small scale action of 40k armies and not some civilians like Necromunda, thus benefitting from using the same models in both. I'm just having a hard time seeing any negatives in that.

Oh, fair enough to the White Dwarf articles then. If its developing the game then all the more power to it.

I must clarify where I stand on KT; I don't desire a "stricter line" for the models it uses, merely to have the same amount of love as Warcry. Warcry received warbands, beasts and monsters made for that game, in addition to the models from the larger AoS range.

Right, but I think the situation is a bit different in context as it comes to Kill Team.

Warcry is more akin to the old Path to Glory idea, with various Chaos barbarians duking it out in small skirmishes. It needed a swathe of different factions to start with, with the later addition of "okay fine, you can play with normal AoS models as well", same thing as PtG eventually got. Like Necromunda, it is however a properly distinct game of its own. Kill Team, thematically, exists as a tool for "what if 40k but as an 80's action film" skirmish rules for your already existing models. Sure it's cool to get bespoke releases for it, all for that, but since its conception in the 4th edition 40k rulebook appendix, KT has always been meant to work as an alternative way to use your 40k stuff and perhaps buy a box or two of something you might not want a whole army of. For this purpose, it doesn't suffer as much from getting a smaller trickle of steady releases versus a big wave.

I'd agree with that regarding the last edition edition of Kill Team, but the new edition is a completely distinct game of its own. Its now as independent as Warcry is from Age of Sigmar.

But that's not true in context. The rules are different, certainly, but its position as a game and IP adjacent entity isn't.

WarCry's thing is not "what if AoS but small", while Kill Team's very much is. Original 4th ed. Kill Team was just as distinct yet understood as a nice, additional side hustle to the 40k machine. 2021 KT is just the same: regardless of its mechanics, it's "40k but small" with the regular factions, just better suited for those models than the existing Necromunda framework was (cough Shadow War cough). It doesn't need anything besides rules. Having dedicated model releases is of course nice, but for its purpose just having the main rules is already providing that alternative channel for people to use their old stuff and have excuses for buying new boxes from other factions.

At this point I've pretty much said my piece. I agree that Kill Team has the advantage of 40K's range but disagree that Warcry is any different. Before Warcry we had AOS: Skirmish which was little more than a shoe-string budget AoS: Kill Team, where its advantage was any kit from the AoS range so long as it fits the points.

But who knows? Maybe GW will get their act together soon, break out a packet of chocolate Hob-Nobs and entice me back to Kill Team.

 warmaster21 wrote:
I prefer necromunda over 40k these days, though getting people to play it for longer than a week before falling apart is impossible.

Campaign play is almost impossible, if you are not a pupil or student because of adult life. I bought the new Necromunda as soon as it got released due to nostalgia. How many games have I played since then? Maybe six. I started a campaign with a single acquaintance but then Corona killed the campaign after three games.

 Strg Alt wrote:

 warmaster21 wrote:
I prefer necromunda over 40k these days, though getting people to play it for longer than a week before falling apart is impossible.

Campaign play is almost impossible, if you are not a pupil or student because of adult life. I bought the new Necromunda as soon as it got released due to nostalgia. How many games have I played since then? Maybe six. I started a campaign with a single acquaintance but then Corona killed the campaign after three games.

yeah when it came back out our local gw had started up a campaign and my brother and I were the only person who would show up after the first week, at that piont it just became why are we bothering to drive down to GW to play when we can just play at home instead.... and then we stopped doing that and moved on to other better things

40k started out as more like a skirmish game. But it got bigger and bigger in scale until we see Lords of Wars among the armies these days. And this is something other skirmish scale cannot compete with.

40k gives you the skirmish battles still because there are still individual HQ models and small squads that can duke it out. But 40k also then expands within the same setting and army such that you have tanks, dreadnaughts and Lords of Wars battling it all out in the same army and setting. That kind of epic setting simply isn't there for Necromunda.

Other tabletop games have tried to replicate an "epic" setting, but I feel that all of them missed the point on one thing. The actual scale of size of models.

Do I feel like its suitably epic when moving around and firing the guns of a small battleship that is smaller than a custodes bike? Or a starship. Or whatever? For me personally. I simply don't.

Yet, a chaos knight towers over the other models I have. Same for a Lord of skulls. Not only is the model appropriately huge, I have the rest of my army clustered around it such that I can compare and really appreciate how large it is. The Lord of skulls wields a gigantic axe that is 3 times the size of a marine, and I can actually place a marine next to it to see how small it is. It makes the hours and time I put into assembling and painting that Lord of War worth it.

I can relate to that owning four IKs and a Stompa. They look great in the glass cabinet.

However Necromunda has more action going on with running, climbing, jumping, falling, swimming crawling, burning, bleeding and fleeing. Not to mention environmental hazards, ammo-checks and other good stuff. GW claimed that their games itself while being played were telling a story. It´s true for Necromunda but no longer for 40K where only one question remains to be answered for a model: Dead or alive. That´s why modern 40K is so bland and this won´t change no matter how many new factions you add to the setting.

 Strg Alt wrote:

 warmaster21 wrote:
I prefer necromunda over 40k these days, though getting people to play it for longer than a week before falling apart is impossible.

Campaign play is almost impossible, if you are not a pupil or student because of adult life. I bought the new Necromunda as soon as it got released due to nostalgia. How many games have I played since then? Maybe six. I started a campaign with a single acquaintance but then Corona killed the campaign after three games.

Not really true. A lot of adults can play one or even two games of 40k or AoS every week, or every two weeks at most. For each game of 40k/AoS you can have two games of Necromunda. Those people can definitely have the time to play a campaign of Necromunda. What it might be hard is to find someone that is actually interested in campaign style games rather than single pick up games, which have a much wider audience. And also appropriate tables, with appropriate terrain. But those who can play 4-8 40k/AoS games a month can definitely handle a campaign of Necromunda.

Yes that is very true.

I have found that for the person running the campaign you have to treat it like a real military exercise (anyone who has ever tried to run D&D will sympathise with this too) and organise appropriately. For most groups of adults in modern life you will never, ever get everyone to commit successfully to a date - people will forget, last minute things happening. So the key is to be able to run the campaign with 75% attendance, if you demand 100% it will never happen. Make the game system or campaign so it can run while a person or two are missing, give them a chance to catch up next time etc. and have some method of informing for anyone that has missed key events. You can get free blogs on things like Wix these days that don't take too much time to setup and really help (the equivalent of the old club bulletin board and map really).

I have a couple of mates that drive me up the wall with their lack of organisation but you have to keep plugging away (constant alerts, reminders, confirmation of locations and even who is bringing snacks - all of the logistics!) but I think if you do sort it it is definitely worth the effort in the end!

On way to do it is to have each Campaign Turn (so everyone has had a single game) last a couple of weeks or more. Whilst not quite as engaging, it opens up the flexibility.

For instance, my campaign is being hosted in my office/gaming room. So we can arrange games pretty much any evening that suits the paired players. Of course it’s not so easy if your using a FLGS or club.

I'm currently running a 6 player campaign where each campaign turn is 2 weeks to accommodate disparate scheduling. It's good fun!
We just exited the downtime week in which we played a special "Thanks for the Snake" day celebration (the players had to hunt Snake to get meat for the feast! a... a lot of gangers accidentally died in the process... I didn't mean to make the scenario so lethal, I promise!)

Just bought the kill team box set. I will be un-orking the rather excellent terrain and using it for necromunda - its absolutely perfect terrain.

So, my problem with Necromunda right now is knowing what to books to have to run a normal campaign.

Hive war has this mini campaign that just works with what you get in the box, very limited.

Then there's the tactics cards that are very difficult to find and I'm just going to print my own.

Right now, to reliably have everything in once place, I have to use third party resources.

This may be solved by the rumors I've been hearing of some kind of new Necromunda core book, or some kind of consolidation attempt.

Deadnight wrote:
Just bought the kill team box set. I will be un-orking the rather excellent terrain and using it for necromunda - its absolutely perfect terrain.

isn't there a hive completely overrun by orcs on necromunda?

 Vertrucio wrote:
So, my problem with Necromunda right now is knowing what to books to have to run a normal campaign.

I'm right on the middle of a necromunda gang/terrain build-a-palooza and can't wait to actually play a campaign but I too am unsure what books are needed to play a bog-sta dard campaign with.

 warmaster21 wrote:

Deadnight wrote:
Just bought the kill team box set. I will be un-orking the rather excellent terrain and using it for necromunda - its absolutely perfect terrain.

isn't there a hive completely overrun by orcs on necromunda?

Is this true? Surely they would just keep expanding in number and someone would have to sort them out

 warmaster21 wrote:

Deadnight wrote:
Just bought the kill team box set. I will be un-orking the rather excellent terrain and using it for necromunda - its absolutely perfect terrain.

isn't there a hive completely overrun by orcs on necromunda?

Geneztealers I think...

Deadnight wrote:

 warmaster21 wrote:

Deadnight wrote:
Just bought the kill team box set. I will be un-orking the rather excellent terrain and using it for necromunda - its absolutely perfect terrain.

isn't there a hive completely overrun by orcs on necromunda?

Geneztealers I think...

from quick google search to check my memory, looks like there were 3 necromunda hives that had been taken over by orks but were reduced to ruins by space marines

Yeah, the orks were demolished but they're orks so still there. It was Hive Primus that had GSC Infiltrators.

Our gaming group is about to start giving Necromunda a shot and our main driver has been the continuous dumbing down and sucking the life and excitement out of the 40 ruleset. Everything is becoming too similar, factions are becoming like each other, it's getting pretty boring.

Necromunda allows that extra level of complexity and depth of rules because the mode count is so much smaller. And also only having to buy 1 or 2 boxes of models to get started is extremely refreshing, not to mention that just about every model is multi-pose and can be customised really easily where a lot of 40k models have ended up mono-pose with very few options.

Essentially what it boils down to is GW is putting too much focus on competitive and making 40k into less of a hobby wargame and more of an esports style format. Removing all the randomness and fun from the rules to accommodate tournament play where more certainty in your actions is favourable.

Orks is the prime example here all their quirky random weapons have all but disappeared in the new codex replaced by much simpler less random versions.

The sheer depth of faction options in Necromunda seems quite staggering tbh once you factor in progression territories and buying stuff at the trading post alongside the sprawling ruleset. There seems so much more to it than just, show up, perform math sums, remove models.

I still enjoy 40k, but I really wish it stayed more hobby-like.

Pardon my ignorance, but I recall playing when it first came out a few years back. I played the girl gang with poison, but my opponent nullified all of my poison by buying gas masks for his brute men faction. I quit after 20 minutes because I couldn't do anything to his gasmask boys.

Never went back after that as it just seemed very imbalanced.

The factions really bore me, I wasn't attracted to any of them.

But the terrain in that game, the terrain is sweet.

 Togusa wrote:
Pardon my ignorance, but I recall playing when it first came out a few years back. I played the girl gang with poison, but my opponent nullified all of my poison by buying gas masks for his brute men faction. I quit after 20 minutes because I couldn't do anything to his gasmask boys.

Never went back after that as it just seemed very imbalanced.

The factions really bore me, I wasn't attracted to any of them.

Respirators/filter plugs don't work against Toxin weapons, only Gas ones. Those "poison" weapons cannot be countered. Your opponent tried to heavily tailor you and you both played it wrong.

 Blackie wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
Pardon my ignorance, but I recall playing when it first came out a few years back. I played the girl gang with poison, but my opponent nullified all of my poison by buying gas masks for his brute men faction. I quit after 20 minutes because I couldn't do anything to his gasmask boys.

Never went back after that as it just seemed very imbalanced.

The factions really bore me, I wasn't attracted to any of them.

Respirators/filter plugs don't work against Toxin weapons, only Gas ones. Those "poison" weapons cannot be countered. Your opponent tried to heavily tailor you and you both played it wrong.

Toxin weapons are already weaker into house goliath just from the extra point of toughness, but eschers thing back then was the cheap lasgun spam to pin them down with the range and accuracy advantage and pick them apart. (not my prefered playstyle of house escher but it was effective).

Investing in gas weapons is a terrible choice in necromunda sadly, outside of campaign play where you can recoup your cost of going gas by the cost of every other player needing to invest in said anti gas tech, but the gas weapons themselves kind of suck, overpriced and they have chances of literally doing nothing while exposing yourself to instant death (the gas thrower thing being a prime example of a terrible weapon, on a successful resist it doesnt even pin)

 Togusa wrote:
Pardon my ignorance, but I recall playing when it first came out a few years back. I played the girl gang with poison, but my opponent nullified all of my poison by buying gas masks for his brute men faction. I quit after 20 minutes because I couldn't do anything to his gasmask boys.

Never went back after that as it just seemed very imbalanced.

The factions really bore me, I wasn't attracted to any of them.

But the terrain in that game, the terrain is sweet.

What a dick.

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
there’s just a charm that newer sculpts lack imo. I can’t exactly place it, but it’s just something

I feel the same way about many newer Citadel releases but for me Necromunda is the exception. Part of my take on this is the tendency toward making models that are less game pieces and more display or diorama pieces. The Necromunda models are def all game pieces, at least the Citadel ones.

Racerguy180 wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
Pardon my ignorance, but I recall playing when it first came out a few years back. I played the girl gang with poison, but my opponent nullified all of my poison by buying gas masks for his brute men faction. I quit after 20 minutes because I couldn't do anything to his gasmask boys.

Never went back after that as it just seemed very imbalanced.

The factions really bore me, I wasn't attracted to any of them.

But the terrain in that game, the terrain is sweet.

What a dick.

I think most of us who love that game, and think now someone has been put off forever from such a wonderful game because someone wanted the feeling of crushing a noob, feel the same way!

Yeah, also by cheating.