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@OP,

GW will charge such prices as the market will bear. I think that the GW suits will agonize over price points. As consumers we will buy such models as we find value in.

I am still not seeing the point to your thread/question. Teenagers can muster more disposable income that adults. My daughter works part-time, and with no real expenses she has plenty of money to spend on hobby.

Parking that, a kid playing the Recruit edition with their dad is still Warhammering, and maybe when he is older he dives in. Perhaps four friends who played Dawn of War got their parents to buy them 40K stuff for Christmas. $200 to $400 CAD is a reasonable expectation for Christmas etc. They play in on their kitchen tables - they are Warhammering. You don't see them in your FLGS because they don't want to be with a bunch of neckbeards. Don't worry, they will be there in a few years.

I've pivoted from expanding my oldest nephews Star Dragons to getting him and his younger brother into necromunda as I feel the storytelling potential is more relatable than mainline 40k.
Also I'm done with the churn n burn style of game. I'll play the Salamanders firstborn list I have currently until A)GW finally squats another one of my favorite army's or B) they finally go full-MTG and expect me to chase the Dragon (I'd rather do freebase fentanyl)with others whom are weak minded. I have plenty of Primaris if I ever get inspired enuff to make a list that I really like.

If a boxed set comes put with models I like, for sure I'm buying them, but ain't no way I'm paying for the quality/life-expectancy of the studios output.

Folk also need to keep in mind that the game itself is not the totality of the hobby.

Yes, it can be a significant part of it, but there’s still a lot of enjoyment to be had in building, collecting and painting the models.

With the wealth of painting channels on YouTube and indeed Warhammer+, I would genuinely argue the painting side has never been so accessible.

See, when I was a snivelling lirrul Grot, painting guides pretty much came from GW, and they were bobbins. They kind of went….

Step 1. Undercoat white.
Step 2. Block in your main colours, achieving a smooth coat first time,
Step 3. ???????
Step 4. Collect your Golden Daemon.

Even painting lessons in store wildly varied. In my time? I stuck to absolute basics. I’m neither a good nor enthusiastic painter, so you better believe I sacked off that part of the job whenever I could! Other staffers waaaay over complicated it. Custom colour mixes, 27 steps to achieve what base, wash, drybrush could achieve with a lighter touch. And indeed everything in between.

Something I genuinely first noticed in Duncan’s videos was how the camera was setup to let us easily see the actual brush strokes. That was genuinely a revelation for me. Suddenly layering, wet blending etc became doable, because I could see how it’s done.

My bezzie mate is an amazing painter. Here’s his first and so far only YouTube upload on painting Poisoned Wind Globes.




Whilst he’s largely self taught (painting being his Hobby Jam), he himself has learned a bell of a lot watching other painting channels. Just little tips and tricks here and there, which soon add up to a new suite of skills.

The advent of such online tutorials has meant it’s easier than ever to Git Gud, and you don’t even need to leave the comfort of your own home.

That is so, so different to even 10 years ago.

And the same with the modelling side. Lots of online video tutorials with all sorts of tips and tricks.

Now I don’t think it’s possible to make an accurate guesstimate as to what the breakdown of who indulges is what. I can think of a decent way to seek that data either. But, personal anecdote? I know a decent number of people who just do the painting and modelling. Paul for instance has no interest in painting a whole army. He has done stuff like WarCry Warbands, and I know he’s soon to work on BSF. But due to their unique sculpts and for BSF, pretty wide variety he’s not doing the same paint job over and over and over.

And further anecdote? It wasn’t at all unusual to have kids only interested in the books and/or painting. Sure the majority at least tried the various different aspects, but not all of them continued down those multiple paths.

Now, how might that affect sales? Well, I can only speculate. Please be aware that numbers are right out my bum and for illustration only.

Someone into the gaming side? Well, they may buy an army every year or two. That’s not necessarily a one time trip to the till. Some will, but others will assemble their new Force month on month. Some will have a set list they’re working on, others will buy over their target points for variety. But generally, they’ll only be buying a couple of Big Ticket items (such as SC, Super Heavies etc), because that’s all you really need for your army.

A painter? Well, their spending habits might vary quite widely. One might do a model a week, either from a squad set, or a character model. Others might feel drawn to the larger canvas of the larger, more impressive models. But they’re never more than finishing their current project away from needing a new project. So it is entirely feasible, depending how quickly they paint, that they may well spend more than someone who actively games.

Now do not take that as universal, as I’m not claiming it to be so. Some painters may prefer to seek second hand models, either painted for the “fun” of rescuing them or unpainted models from dropped projects, so their spending money isn’t necessarily going directly through GW’s tills. Some like Paul will front up the moolah for a 3D Printer, leaving them no more than a few clicks and hours away from their next blank canvas.

I got hooked to GW stuff in my teens. I'd say that's still the best age for GW to getting players hooked, as those formative years are what people keep coming back to as they age further.

Do you ever wonder why adults still listen to music from their Teenage years? Research has indicated that the music is attached to the strong emotions and new concepts that bombard teenagers. Adults do not have as many of these new, strong emotions or experiences and hence do not latch onto music the same way.

The same is true of wargaming. You can create life-long customers by capturing them when these new emotions and strong experiences can still imprint on the young teenage mind.

I like how we went from 2008~ easy entry to the hobby and smaller armies to "Wealthy 30 year olds with high salaries" in 2020

I mean people always complained that GW was pandering to kids but it's flipped to their targets being old lads with 3+ armies in various systems and flash release sets, boxed sets, and books.

Historicals and smaller scale wargaming has always struggled and had ups and downs and thats a different conversation entirely

As someone who used to work as a staffer many moons ago, I would say a big influx came from parents (or grandparents) wanting to get something for their kids that wasn't X-Box/Playstation. That needed some concentration, patience, and to get them away from that TV screen.

How many of the bajillion kids that got gifted Mines of Moria boxsets actually stuck around and got into the hobby properly? Maybe not a massive percentage, but even if it was only 10 or 20% that is a significant number of people that might find a lifetime activity and interest and will remain in the wargaming hobby. I don't mean just GW, I think a lot of the other companies benefit from hobbyists that come in as kids with GW, then start looking around at other games and systems, simply because GW has so much more highstreet presence. So, at least in the UK, GW is a really great gateway for the hobby.

I will also say I think things are much, much healthier now for GW than they were maybe 10 years ago. Firstly, they have started making better use of the license; there are now so many video games, licensed merchandise etc. that there are lots more points of contact for youngsters to be able to see the universe and get pulled in by it. Secondly, even though the core games are very expensive if you are to make a full size 40k or AoS army, there are at least now cheaper options available. As a kid I have the option to go halves with a friend on Warcry, or Kill team, or buy a Blood Bowl team, and get to play wargames now. Ten years ago this was not the case, and the name 'Games Workshop' had become something of an ironic reminder of what the company used to do. But there is a lot more variety now, a lot more fantasy universes which feature different character, that I can choose to spend money on. And it might be that my parents can't or won't pay for a 40k army now, but in years to come, if I am still a hobbyist because of these cheaper games, I will still be around to spend more money when I am an adult.

 Pacific wrote:
As someone who used to work as a staffer many moons ago, I would say a big influx came from parents (or grandparents) wanting to get something for their kids that wasn't X-Box/Playstation. That needed some concentration, patience, and to get them away from that TV screen.

How many of the bajillion kids that got gifted Mines of Moria boxsets actually stuck around and got into the hobby properly? Maybe not a massive percentage, but even if it was only 10 or 20% that is a significant number of people that might find a lifetime activity and interest and will remain in the wargaming hobby. I don't mean just GW, I think a lot of the other companies benefit from hobbyists that come in as kids with GW, then start looking around at other games and systems, simply because GW has so much more highstreet presence. So, at least in the UK, GW is a really great gateway for the hobby.

I will also say I think things are much, much healthier now for GW than they were maybe 10 years ago. Firstly, they have started making better use of the license; there are now so many video games, licensed merchandise etc. that there are lots more points of contact for youngsters to be able to see the universe and get pulled in by it. Secondly, even though the core games are very expensive if you are to make a full size 40k or AoS army, there are at least now cheaper options available. As a kid I have the option to go halves with a friend on Warcry, or Kill team, or buy a Blood Bowl team, and get to play wargames now. Ten years ago this was not the case, and the name 'Games Workshop' had become something of an ironic reminder of what the company used to do. But there is a lot more variety now, a lot more fantasy universes which feature different character, that I can choose to spend money on. And it might be that my parents can't or won't pay for a 40k army now, but in years to come, if I am still a hobbyist because of these cheaper games, I will still be around to spend more money when I am an adult.

Good post!

I think the sets like the Recruit Edition and the Combat Patrol level of gaming show a real effort to make entry into the hobby easier.

The two main games aside, there’s also a far wider choice of games, and at different price points.

Aeronautica, Underworlds and even stuff like Cursed City and BSF have pretty low price ceilings.

Underworlds is a pretty interesting one. Yes the Warband prices have steadily increased, but with each being a complete expansion unto itself, it remains cost effective. Yes you may wish to get one of each to build your killiest deck, but it’s still a relatively fixed expenditure.

Consider that each Seaon lasts a year, and even going Completionist Weirdo, it’s easily spread out over that year. Warband a month is £25, is ready to go as soon as you’ve assembled it, and gives you some usually pretty cool models to paint.

Even if you’re not intending to play it, that hypothetical £25 a month is still a pretty decent price for a painting project.

A close approximation of that business model (though not exact!) would be X-Wing. No, it doesn’t have seasons. But with each expansion you get everything you need to field that ship, though it does of course still have a Hunt The Card motive for higher spending. The difference being you’ll need what, 3-8 different ships to be your force. And whilst I understand they’ve improved quite a bit, with Hunt The Card you could still end up with a ship you don’t really have any plans for.

Each of the boxed games, including Kill Team, offers a less expensive way to get started, and the games themselves are pretty satisfying to play, or so I’m told.

Turning to 40K and AoS, we’ve also seen the advent of Path to Glory and Crusade. Both serve as ways to get gaming without needing to drop big bucks to assemble your army. Yes as your force progresses you will almost certainly end up spending big bucks, but at least you’re getting games in. And both have their rules folded into the main one, Codexes and Battletomes.

My experience of introducing kids to miniature games over the last decade as a teacher suggests about 10% really go on to 'get into it' as a long term interest.

Does the hobby need it? No.

Does GW need it? Hell, yes.

I'd say "the hobby" - any hobby, really - needs new people. Just ask Privateer Press, Hornby, and other model railway manufacturers, comic book publishers and whatever else you can think of.

I'd say yes the hobby as a whole does need young blood (as opposed to merely new blood),

so much of what we later become is set in our early life even if a young person only brushes against the hobby initially (friends at school play, a brother or sister paints or collects, the grandparents buy them some minis) having that exposure means they're more likely to come back to it at a later date (nostalgia is really powerful)

so no young blood exposure, means far fewer people showing up in their 20s, 30s etc as 'new' blood. You also loose the people who have no exposure who come in as partners/husbands/wives/children of these people

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
I'd say yes the hobby as a whole does need young blood (as opposed to merely new blood),

so much of what we later become is set in our early life even if a young person only brushes against the hobby initially (friends at school play, a brother or sister paints or collects, the grandparents buy them some minis) having that exposure means they're more likely to come back to it at a later date (nostalgia is really powerful)

so no young blood exposure, means far fewer people showing up in their 20s, 30s etc as 'new' blood. You also loose the people who have no exposure who come in as partners/husbands/wives/children of these people

Coming back to the hobby seems to be the real entrenched hobbyists - I did this and skipped 22-27 or so and jumped back in

 John Prins wrote:


Does wargaming need teenagers at all? I know several people who didn't touch wargaming until their mid-twenties, or thirties. How many other hobbies rely on hooking teenagers into a lifelong love of their activity? Does wargaming actually rely on people starting in their teens or is that all an illusion?

I can only speak for myself, but pretty much everyone I know started wargaming in their pre-teens. I got into it when I was 10, introduced by a friend who was also 10 and had already been playing for a year or two. I also got my little brothers into the hobby, so they started around age 7-8ish. I found several other players in my junior high, and we actually founded a 40k club and did 500 point games on our lunch breaks. This was all about 20 years ago, so perhaps things have changed since then, but aside from two friends that I just introduced to the game, most people I know started at teen or pre-teen. (Also my five year old son who has been watching me paint and build models has been bugging me for his own for over a year and finally got his first Orks for his birthday a few months back. I helped him with the construction, but he painted them all himself... they look like the paint job an Ork would give something XD and I've been loving teaching him the basics of the game.)

Something I think about from time to time.

Friend of mine owned a FLGS, helped manage it with him. We classified people coming into the store based on whether they were regulars and how long they'd been into the hobby.

The most striking thing about people coming in for pickup games was how they would segregate based on age. Younger players tended to favor matches with younger players and vice versa. We noticed the number of older players would increase when new Codexes were released and they were learning new rules. Younger players motivations were more determined by their school schedules, exams and summer vacation meant we saw less of them.

Seems to me "growing the hobby" is not so much a matter of finding younger players as bridging the gaps between generations. Tournaments are good for this, you never know who you will be matched up with. But the casual game is where I saw the most opportunity to increase interaction and potentially add value to showing up for a game.

A guy who used to come into the store was a master carpenter who could build outstanding dioramas out of any materials. He would just build stuff in the shop every couple months, people would turn out to see him work. He would get people talking about pink foam, wood glue, how to make more impressive rubble from sawdust, all sorts of things. Lead to some impressive armies and store scenery.

I think there's a reason GW sets up paint stations in each store, and it's to create opportunities for this kind of interaction. I'd like to see more of an effort to "match" players with others who might have a different background.

 techsoldaten wrote:

Seems to me "growing the hobby" is not so much a matter of finding younger players as bridging the gaps between generations. Tournaments are good for this, you never know who you will be matched up with. But the casual game is where I saw the most opportunity to increase interaction and potentially add value to showing up for a game.

A guy who used to come into the store was a master carpenter who could build outstanding dioramas out of any materials. He would just build stuff in the shop every couple months, people would turn out to see him work. He would get people talking about pink foam, wood glue, how to make more impressive rubble from sawdust, all sorts of things. Lead to some impressive armies and store scenery.

I think there's a reason GW sets up paint stations in each store, and it's to create opportunities for this kind of interaction. I'd like to see more of an effort to "match" players with others who might have a different background.

This is indeed a huge thing, bridging the age gap is a huge step. It's also the experience gap too, which often goes with age but not always. It's about bringing the different tends together. Like all gaps it can be tricky at times and the more extreme the gap becomes the harder it can be at times to bridge it. If you wind up with a club full of 60 year old players then getting people in their 20s is going to be much more tricky to get them to come, to stick around and grow in number. It's the same if you've a competitive group that's hyper competitive and skilled and you try and get new blood in who are less experienced or totally fresh. Just look at the problems that Warmachine has right now with recruitment; one of the barriers is that those who have remained are often the more keen, more skilled and more experienced. They are more competitive and this creates a huge skill barrier that is very hard to bridge for getting newbies (any age) into the group.


Bigger groups often bypass some of this by weight of numbers and variety; age gaps get muted when you've got a whole smattering of ages and generations attending; same for skill and other groupings.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Something I think about from time to time.

Friend of mine owned a FLGS, helped manage it with him. We classified people coming into the store based on whether they were regulars and how long they'd been into the hobby.

The most striking thing about people coming in for pickup games was how they would segregate based on age. Younger players tended to favor matches with younger players and vice versa. We noticed the number of older players would increase when new Codexes were released and they were learning new rules. Younger players motivations were more determined by their school schedules, exams and summer vacation meant we saw less of them.

Seems to me "growing the hobby" is not so much a matter of finding younger players as bridging the gaps between generations. Tournaments are good for this, you never know who you will be matched up with. But the casual game is where I saw the most opportunity to increase interaction and potentially add value to showing up for a game.

A guy who used to come into the store was a master carpenter who could build outstanding dioramas out of any materials. He would just build stuff in the shop every couple months, people would turn out to see him work. He would get people talking about pink foam, wood glue, how to make more impressive rubble from sawdust, all sorts of things. Lead to some impressive armies and store scenery.

I think there's a reason GW sets up paint stations in each store, and it's to create opportunities for this kind of interaction. I'd like to see more of an effort to "match" players with others who might have a different background.

Thank you for the excellent insight.