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Does the hobby need young blood? I often see the argument, especially where GW is concerned, that the hobby has to attract people in their teens or we'll "run out of opponents and the hobby will die".

Mostly this seems to focus around keeping it affordable for the kids, even while ignoring those kids often have parents with deep pockets, but let's ignore that for now.

Does wargaming need teenagers at all? I know several people who didn't touch wargaming until their mid-twenties, or thirties. How many other hobbies rely on hooking teenagers into a lifelong love of their activity? Does wargaming actually rely on people starting in their teens or is that all an illusion?

Obviously I'm not going to argue that GW in particular doesn't market to teens - they do - but it seems like that's a market segment reliant on 'churn', getting new customers as the previous ones abandon the product, but a lot of wargame companies probably don't see much in the way of teenage customers. The argument could be made that GW introduced those people to wargaming in the first place, which is fair, but also to be fair wargaming was around long before GW existed and with today's internet there's little barrier to people discovering the hobby aside from GW.

It just seems to me that a lot of people enter the wargaming hobby when they have access to disposable income - i.e. in their twenties or later. Can the wargaming hobby sustain itself on <gasp> adults discovering the hobby?

If their focus is to make it affordable, they're failing spectacularly!

Let's look at Napoleonic wargames as an example.....


..... they seem to be doing just fine to me?

 Kall3m0n wrote:
If their focus is to make it affordable, they're failing spectacularly!

I think GW is more relying on the parents of teens to provide the disposable income, but this isn't just about GW.

Minis for wargaming can only be so cheap if we want there to be more than just some guys in their garage casting lead minis. Companies like Mantic or Warlord Games seem to be trucking along fine charging significantly less than GW, but even then you're looking at 2-300 bucks for a mid sized army. And that's FINE. No hobby is free.

But I'm more interested in whether or not the hobby needs to market at teens at all.

In theory there are things GW's doing to try and make the game accessible to younger people. In practice the game remains incredibly expensive for a teenager's hobby (not just because of the minis but because of the scale and the rate at which they push you to dump your old stuff and get new stuff), incredibly complicated for a game that's trying to be "accessible", and the push to burn down the rules and start over means that the community is largely populated by a) newbies, b) tournament people who buy a new army every six months to keep up with the balance, and c) people annoyed at their own armies not getting any support floating around the edges complaining.

Independent of whether new customers are teenagers or adults 40k is going to remain pretty inaccessible so long as the balance roller-coaster continues and so long as the community apologists keep insisting that you really need to buy different minis/buy a different army to have fun when your stuff is crap.

Young is a relative term. Being a 30 year old isn't considered "young" generally but you'd be a relative babe attending a model railroading or historical gaming convention. Just look at those if you want to see what happens when you don't attract younger players and just rely on the aging ones. Railroaders have it the worst as at least with historicals the relatively robust WW2 gaming systems have attracted a end genX to beginning millenial fanbase.

To me the term "new blood" doesn't mean teenagers. sure, some are able to grasp and enjoy the hobby, but most new players we run into at our FLGS are in their 20's. new blood to me is more about building a solid community of regular gamers. we have a group of regular players who are in their mid-teens all the way up to mid 50s

Well, any hobby needs new blood. I mean, it’s a pretty silly question really.

GW are able to recruit in a way no one else in the industry really can, because of their wholly owned chain of shops, and indeed standardised staff training.

As you may know, in the increasingly dim and distant past I used to be a GW till monkey. Typically only part time as an extra income, and you better believe I was mostly in it for the discount.

The stores are there for visibility of the hobby. Yes the internet is a thing when it wasn’t in the past, but you’re still not particularly likely to stumble across GW, Warmahordes and other “home made” IP. X-Wing and Legions, and other licensed IP are of course different. You can find those by searching “X-Wing model” etc.

But GW’s stores are on the high street. They get passing traffic. The nosey and the curious might come in to find out what it’s all about. And each store has the capacity to show the very basics to those people. Build a model. Paint a model. Try the game. That’s welcoming. That’s an invite. And it’s not really something any other company does.

Yes, there are FLGS out there. But as I‘ve said before, that’s not quite the same beast, as not all FLGS are equal. Some are dim and dingey, and not terribly welcoming spaces. And every line they carry is competing with every other line they carry. If the owner just isn’t into a certain game, they may not offer intro gaming etc for it.

We also see GW doing further engagement by supporting school clubs, Duke of Edinburgh and Scouts.

Now you’re not going to retain every customer. And not every intro is going to result in a sale. Sadly it’s been so long since that was my job I couldn’t venture a conversion rate.

But having the stores aids that retention. Beginners Programmes, in-store gaming etc all ensures a shake and bake community. Which for inherently social games is an important part of the mix. After all, if you’ve no like minded folk around you, you’re less likely to persevere in any new hobby.

The price? Well, that’s massively subjective. Whilst my experience is true, and it remains anecdotal. But I live in one of the UK’s most affluent towns. Multiple grammar schools, multiple streets of million pound properties. Even an Ivy Restaurant etc. Its all terribly terribly middle class, so a decent proportion of my fellow residents have decent amounts of spare cash. And middle class parents will throw money at something their child enjoys, especially if it has some kind of educational value. Which any wargame does.

We also cannot underestimate the fact that a lot of those who get into GW games at a young age are naturally geeky, and not uncommonly a bit socially awkward. For their parent to get their kid into a hobby where they interact with others of equal passion? That’s a route to their bank account right there man. No word of a lie. And whilst said kids early days can be a pain in the staff’s neck (we’re not a creche. We are not childcare)? To see those kids social skills start to develop and them come out of their shells is actually pretty cool. Certainly made me feel like I was making the world a marginally better place.

And I’ve seen a number of parental reactions. Some made Sunday Beginners a family event. Dad and Lad into the gaming side. Mum and younger kids? Sat quietly painting models. Some parents dash in, throw the money around, and dash out. Some wouldn’t come into the store. Others would use it as a kind of bribery/blackmail. Kid got their home work done and are making the grade at school? Cash taps on. Kid not done homework or slacking at school? Cash tap off.

Grandparents would come in with the Christmas Wishlist, and we’d sort them out. Indeed the only difficult question was “if you’ve no list, does the kid mention an army? Orks? Oh…erm…..” because there’s Orks, Orcs and LOTR Orcs… But hey. Easy exchange policy. Long as you’ve got the receipt and the box remains sealed? We’ll swap it out with no hassle. Hell, I’ve seen grandparents double their intended spend when they found out it was a British owned company selling British made products. The look on the old boy’s face when I told him “no, not in China. The factory is in Nottingham, along with the design studio and that. There’s even a museum” was kinda heart warming.

And hey. Look at GW’s bottom line. What they’re doing? It works. Plus, with it all starting to get into the wider public consciousness (ref Graham Norton show, trendy magazine articles, NYP article), those stores may well see more recruitment.

Just got to know your audience, and who you’re actually selling it to (hint, it’s not the spotty little ‘erbert. He doesn’t hold the purse strings….go for the parents. Win them over. Raid their bank accounts).

 aphyon wrote:
To me the term "new blood" doesn't mean teenagers. sure, some are able to grasp and enjoy the hobby, but most new players we run into at our FLGS are in their 20's. new blood to me is more about building a solid community of regular gamers. we have a group of regular players who are in their mid-teens all the way up to mid 50s

That's why I specifically wrote 'young blood' rather than new blood.

There's an attitude in the hobby that you have to hook kids in their teens into the hobby or 'the hobby will die!. I don't think it's true. I think a lot of hobbyists start when they can afford to start, and that more often than not means in their 20's - free time and free money.

Certainly it's good to start in your teens, but there's no 'low threshold' minis (i.e singles that don't cost 35 CAD+) in a lot of lines anymore. When I was in my teens buying a blister with weekly pocket money wasn't an issue, but blisters of just about any minis have way outstripped inflation, and yet the wargaming industry has never been bigger.

Mad Doc Grotsnik is right in that GW is targeting parental money rather than teens. Teenagers generally don't have lots of money to throw around. But I do wonder at the retention rate of teen hobbyists vs someone getting into it in their 20s or 30s.

I wonder if looking at the console sales demographics would be illustrative. The same ideas hold - large up front outlay, decently expensive periodical purchases. Teens don't buy their own consoles, they are bought for them. But the young adults with disposable incomes are the ones buying a new game every other week, own multiple different consoles, etcetera.

Also look at hobbies that die, often its because they stop getting new-blood into them. The old-blood they have steadily gets older and yes there are times when an aging fanbase works because they end up with money, free time and inspiration to keep at the hobby. However if your majority is a continually aging fanbase then eventually its going to die-off.

One by one each person that leaves (for whatever reason) is more heavily felt because you aren't replacing them with new blood.

Also the older the generations get the greater a generational gap is with younger people and that makes it harder and harder to recruit younger people into the hobby. Meanwhile many more mature people are often a touch more "set in their ways" and might not want to start a brand new interest (or have the money after their other interests).



Suffice to say that recruiting new blood is essential and in the Wargaming market for GW its even more essential. I'd argue that, outside of historical (whcih is sort of its own beast and shows the generation gap effect fantastically well); most wargames poach gamers off GW's customer base.
The vast majority (not all) will get started in miniature wargames through Games Workshop in some form.

GW is the one they'll more likely see ads for; or see on the highstreet; or the media etc.... GW is well known, more marketed and more public aware than the other brands.

Certainly in the UK most people know of Warhammer/Games Workshop. Even if all they know is the name and that its models. They've never heard of Privateer Press (even at their height of popularity); Hawk Wargames, Wayland Games, Spartan Games (in their day) etc...




Also another thing, many oldblood are often newbloods and often start when they are young. Even just a handful of models when young can be all that's needed to create a teenage to adult fan who comes back for the nostalgic effect; stays because now they CAN build the army/ies they want etc...



If you cut off the newblood, you cut off tomorrows old blood and your market and fanbase will forever dwindle.

 Overread wrote:

Also another thing, many oldblood are often newbloods and often start when they are young. Even just a handful of models when young can be all that's needed to create a teenage to adult fan who comes back for the nostalgic effect; stays because now they CAN build the army/ies they want etc...

Lots of oldbloods also got into it in their 20's or even 30's because they couldn't in their teens. Lots of teens who were into it in their teens never come back.

The point is you CAN make new customers of people beyond their teens but people seem to just focus on them (teens) to the detriment of the rest of the market, including a large market segment that can afford it with their own money rather than their parents. GW doesn't target teens to build lifetime customers, they target teens because they know their parents have the money.

For comparison, look at the comic book industry. For decades comic books were just for kids/teens, though adults did enjoy them. The industry upped their game, made better stories with better paper and colors (and cost!) and captured a bigger market. Comic books went from a rack in a bookstore/convenience to entire stores devoted to them, because they finally acknowledged that adults enjoyed comic books as well and it became mainstream. Obviously it became bloated and crashed because of it, but comic books are still mainstream entertainment even if manga is kicking the western industry's butt.

Can GW really go mainstream without the adult market? I kind of doubt it. But the mainstream adult market is going to be less forgiving of dumb GW shenanigans...

I probably wouldn't promote GW games to kids any more. I'd promote wargaming though, and emphasize the diversity of kits and companies out there.

Though it has been my experience that teenagers are often pretty brand conscious, and if one brand is perceived as more prestigious they'll want that one even if other alternatives exist.

But any kids I've introduced to miniature games have generally been pretty enthusiastic. Few enough transition into collectors but that's mostly because painting is offputting for them.

I can speak from personal experience. I bought my first miniature at 16. It was a box of old metal Cadian Imperial Guard. I played GW exclusively for about 20 years before branching out. I'am about to hit 40 and spend a pretty good amount every year on a variety of miniature games (including GW).

Would I be in this hobby if I hadn't walked into that game store a few decades ago? I don't know. Life got crazy in my 20's between grad school, marriage, a professional job and then kids. Things didn't slowdown in my 30's and the roller coaster ride looks to be continuing into my 40's.

I think teens have the time to "get into" hobbies in ways that older adults don't. Now I'll agree that teens lack the $ resources to fully invest in a hobby but what the do develop is a passion for something that can grow with them into adult hood (when they have the $, but won't have the time).

In real life I'm a teacher and incorporate war games into my lessons whenever I can (Neil Thomas's One Hour Wargames are great for this). I try and be an ambassador for the hobby to younger people because with out an infusion of "new blood" a lot of future enthusiasm will be lost.

And I found my old thread on this

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/763215.page


So to the question of do we need young-blood - well it seems that a large majority of Dakka WERE young blood when they started. A whopping 79% started under the age of 17.

Considering how popular GW games are I'd say no, the hobby doesn't need (more) young blood.

Of course the more hobbyists we have the better it is for everyone!

What we certainly don't need is a horde of teenagers that demands everything now, chasing the flavour of the month.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 warboss wrote:
Young is a relative term. Being a 30 year old isn't considered "young" generally but you'd be a relative babe attending a model railroading or historical gaming convention.

It depends on where you live. Here people in their 30s are often referred to as "boys" and "girls" .

 Blackie wrote:


What we certainly don't need is a horde of teenagers that demands everything now, chasing the flavour of the month.

From what I can tell the 20, 30, 40, 50 and perhaps more year-olds all do the same thing Why do the teens get to be the exception?

ITT: A bunch of ancient feths opine on whether you need the young folks anywho

I strongly believe that the vast majority of customers is 30+ years old, maybe even 40+. And if that's not true in absolute numbers, it certainly is in terms of the overall percentage of revenue generated. Some parents do have deep pockets, but they probably wouldn't allow outrageous spending the same way an invested middle-aged neckbeard would.

That being said, I also expect a large chunk of those people having been introduced to 40k in their teens, so getting them young should probably still be a high priority in order to foster brand loyalty.

Yes, end of story.

 Overread wrote:

 Blackie wrote:


What we certainly don't need is a horde of teenagers that demands everything now, chasing the flavour of the month.

From what I can tell the 20, 30, 40, 50 and perhaps more year-olds all do the same thing Why do the teens get to be the exception?

I doubt teens are chasing the flavor of the month; remember, they're not spending their own money, by and large.

Meta chasers tend to be people with lots of disposable income.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 the_scotsman wrote:
ITT: A bunch of ancient feths opine on whether you need the young folks anywho

Hey, thanks for contributing to intelligent discourse.

I'm not saying that teens should be gatekept out of the hobby - at all. I just doubt this notion that the hobby has to target teenagers or it will die off in short order. In today's climate of 'nerd culture' becoming more and more mainstream, I have to challenge that assumption.

I look at things like Star Wars Armada - as wargames not directly targeting teenagers, because let's face it, the original A New Hope is 40 freaking years old. An ideal introduction into the world of wargaming for the older crowd. Nothing stopping a teenager from enjoying it either. Then stuff like Rebel Assault, or Marvel Crisis Protocol, games targeting mainstream-friendly nerd culture and nostalgia to grow the hobby.

It would seem that GW deems it important to reach out to the teen market - I trust them to know their business if nothing else.

Is there a downside to having teens in the hobby, assuming that by "young blood" you mean teens? I was tabletop gaming in my teens, albeit with different systems (80s). I guess I am trying to figure out the point of the thread? Is there a "so what?" that I am missing?

 John Prins wrote:

I'm not saying that teens should be gatekept out of the hobby - at all. I just doubt this notion that the hobby has to target teenagers or it will die off in short order. In today's climate of 'nerd culture' becoming more and more mainstream, I have to challenge that assumption.

Yeah, but who's driving nerd culture? It's not the 40-year-olds, it's young people (under 30's), kids, and teens. Who's going to see the Star Wars, Marvel, DC, and Middle Earth films? It's mostly kids. Why do so many adults not like these new movies? Because by and large they're designed for kids to go and have fun at a cinema, not deep plotlines and engaging characters, although that isn't true of every single one.

I look at things like Star Wars Armada - as wargames not directly targeting teenagers, because let's face it, the original A New Hope is 40 freaking years old.

In the last two decades, there have been 8 Star Wars films and 8 TV/streaming shows split across like 80 odd in-universe years. Even outside of those, the Star Wars franchise is one of the biggest in the world and this notion that the OT (and Star Wars in general) is only for people born in the '80s is laughable.
Just seems like you're mad that there's kids and teens at your FLGS.

Dear OP.

With respect. Can you please explain to me exactly why GW shouldn’t seek to bring in younger people, when minds are more open?

Because that seems to be your point of confusion.

The hobby being presented as appealing to younger demographics does not equate to the hobby being unappealing to older demographics in turn.

The only reason todays "Nerd/Geek Culture" even HAS people in their 30-50s is because they were nerds/geeks when they were teens.

They/We WERE the youngblood once. We were the spotty, annoying teen at the club. We grew up.

Now there's new spotty, snotty teens at the club and in time they will grow up too.



Franchises/hobbies/interests that don't appeal and recruit fresh young blood and new fans are destined to forever be at risk of suddenly ending. Look at Lego, they spend a fortune attaching themselves to films to ensure that kids today keep an eye on Lego; that they don't just sit back and rely on collecting adults to be their market. Because they know that that adult market will dry up one day. If there aren't kids today into Lego, they can't grow up to be adults into Lego tomorrow.


The same is true of Warhammer.



The only difference is that today there's a LOT more adults running things, organising events, teaching newbies and even being parents to new generations. We mostly didn't have that half as much when we were growing up because geeky stuff like that was just not the same. Oh it was there, it just wasn't anything like as big, nor organised or anything as it is now.

I am 22 years old and have no stable source of income, due to my living situation not requiring rent/what have you and college. My situation is unique and a bit - dare I say - privileged. But if one is determined, you can certainly get into wargaming.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Dear OP.

With respect. Can you please explain to me exactly why GW shouldn’t seek to bring in younger people, when minds are more open?

Because that seems to be your point of confusion.

The hobby being presented as appealing to younger demographics does not equate to the hobby being unappealing to older demographics in turn.

I do address the point in the OP; people assert that the hobby has to be kept 'relatively inexpensive' so that young people can afford it, or you won't get young people and the hobby will dry up.

I also addressed (and put aside, for the moment) that teenagers are being paid for by their parents - which you supported as a former GW staffer.

So, to rephrase the question:

Are people insisting that the hobby be affordable to teenagers so that the hobby can continue to recruit them, just being cheap? Or does the argument have merit? Should the market cater to what teenagers could afford on their own?

The industry itself - even cheaper alternatives like Mantic or Warlord - prices itself well above 'pocket money' levels of the days of lead minis in a blister pack. The 'affordable' alternatives are still going to rely on the adult money of either the adult purchaser or the parent of the recipient.

I had way more disposable income as teen than I did in my 20s to 30s. By that time, my money was going into housing, insurance, vehicles, retirement savings, and family maintenance and my "professional" wages were still pretty much on the low end.

 Easy E wrote:
I had way more disposable income as teen than I did in my 20s to 30s. By that time, my money was going into housing, insurance, vehicles, retirement savings, and family maintenance and my "professional" wages were still pretty much on the low end.

Not in the USA you didn't. That's rose tinted goggles or rich parents. Even a working teenager still has plenty of bills(vehicle is mandatory due to most of the country having terrible public transit and crappy cars EAT cash) and makes almost nothing per hour.

Even a minimum wage 40 hour per week job is absolutely bonkers compared to what teenagers can earn. If you DIDN'T have a job as a teenager, which a lot of areas just don't have availability for under 18s, then it's obviously even worse.

Yes, but my expenses were much more limited as a teen then they were with a young family. Buying for 1 opposed to 3. Health Care for one relatively healthy person vs. 2 adults/1child, 1 family home vs. a shared apartment, etc.

But please, keep telling me how I am wrong about my own life......

It needs new blood (customers), not necessarily young blood.

Truth be told, I haven't seen anyone under ~18-20 in game shop in...a decade? (At the game tables anyway. Card tables for Magic and whatever are a different story). And even then, it was a PP Press Ganger's kid and the kid had no interest in being there.

I think once in 1998 or 1999 I saw a preteen in a GW shop.

Whether kids can afford it (or matter to the game) seems irrelevant to me. They've got their own interests and generally don't care about tabletop wargames.