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Codex Genestealer Cult 9th edition. Now with 100% more crossfire  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





 JNAProductions wrote:
 Ordana wrote:
KurtAngle2 wrote:
The day I'll do fewer hits than 5 on auto hitting 5D6s I'll let you know
if your trying to be cheap you bring 3 flamers for still an almost guaranteed 5 hits. 2 flamers + 3 pistols is probably not good enough but I havn't done the math on that.
Are they BS 3+ or 4+? Assuming 3+...

Numbers are as follows:

99.97% chance of 5+ hits from 4d6 Flamer hits and 1 pistol shot.
99.59% chance of 5+ hits from 3d6 Flamer hits and 2 pistol shots.
96.30% chance of 5+ hits from 2d6 Flamer hits and 3 pistol shots.
77.78% chance of 5+ hits from 1d6 Flamer hits and 4 pistol shots.
13.17% chance of 5+ hits from 5 pistol shots alone.

Two Flamers seems like the sweet spot, actually.
They are 4+ base and I wouldn't assume Crossfire because that is what your trying to trigger. Should still be good with 2, tho I would probably still go 3 just to be really sure unless you desperately need the 3 points elsewhere.

 Niiai wrote:
Why does not rusted claw avoid the - 1 from heavy weapons? Is it a spesific wording for GSC? Arriving from reserves count as a normal move. Rusted claw count as remaining stationary until the end of the shooting phase.

With athelan jackals beeing fairly cheap and sturdy for their price they can just sipp back on the back end of the table and try to trigger exposed. Those and ridge runners are probably the most movement per unit for points. 4 jackals can also. Space out quite wide.

I just had a hilarious thought of not taking anything but small infnatery to make the opponents heavy weapons really suck. Just supercost every unit starting on the board with 'they came from below' and suddenly you have a pre game move on all units. Sort of like Necrons have (expansionist, is that what they are called?)
The unit upgrades are unique. can't give 2 units the same one or give 1 unit two upgrades.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/10 10:25:32


 
   
Made in no
Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

Oh the units upgrades are unique? I think I have seen some battle reports where they do that wrong then.

   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut




Yes, "Proficient Planning" upgrades are unique.

Re: Rusted Claw and avoiding the -1 for Heavy weapons when arriving from reserves, it's in the 40k Core Book FAQ, page 8. Essentially, units arriving from reserves can never benefit from any "counts as stationary" rules in the turn they are set up.
   
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Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

That is just weard, but fear enough.

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



London

I have realised my dream GSC is probably a narrative game where near limitless (recycling) hordes press every closer to the embattled interlopers...
   
Made in no
Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

To be fair that mechanic is in the codex with banners bringing back units. Picturing people joining in out of manhole covers and abandoned buildings.

   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Webber does not hit do cannot proc crossfire.

Exposed does nothing if you dont have a crossfire marker, even if you use the strat.

Sanctus can turn off bodyguard auras with his strat.

Backfield primus with 5++ relic can use nexos to broadcast it to 1 or 2 units anywhere on the board. Clamavus can similarly broadcast action + shoot to a unit anywhere on the board.

Hand flamers are not a good way to proc crossfire because they beneit the most from the +1 to wound from exposed.

Give opressor's bane to a saboteur to give the 2d3 bombs crossfire.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, be careful with the strategic reserve upgrade that counts as +1 turn. for the same reason you can come in on turn 1, the unit probably dies if not on the board by end of turn 2.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/10 16:36:22


 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

 Ordana wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 Ordana wrote:
KurtAngle2 wrote:
The day I'll do fewer hits than 5 on auto hitting 5D6s I'll let you know
if your trying to be cheap you bring 3 flamers for still an almost guaranteed 5 hits. 2 flamers + 3 pistols is probably not good enough but I havn't done the math on that.
Are they BS 3+ or 4+? Assuming 3+...

Numbers are as follows:

99.97% chance of 5+ hits from 4d6 Flamer hits and 1 pistol shot.
99.59% chance of 5+ hits from 3d6 Flamer hits and 2 pistol shots.
96.30% chance of 5+ hits from 2d6 Flamer hits and 3 pistol shots.
77.78% chance of 5+ hits from 1d6 Flamer hits and 4 pistol shots.
13.17% chance of 5+ hits from 5 pistol shots alone.

Two Flamers seems like the sweet spot, actually.
They are 4+ base and I wouldn't assume Crossfire because that is what your trying to trigger. Should still be good with 2, tho I would probably still go 3 just to be really sure unless you desperately need the 3 points elsewhere.

 Niiai wrote:
Why does not rusted claw avoid the - 1 from heavy weapons? Is it a spesific wording for GSC? Arriving from reserves count as a normal move. Rusted claw count as remaining stationary until the end of the shooting phase.

With athelan jackals beeing fairly cheap and sturdy for their price they can just sipp back on the back end of the table and try to trigger exposed. Those and ridge runners are probably the most movement per unit for points. 4 jackals can also. Space out quite wide.

I just had a hilarious thought of not taking anything but small infnatery to make the opponents heavy weapons really suck. Just supercost every unit starting on the board with 'they came from below' and suddenly you have a pre game move on all units. Sort of like Necrons have (expansionist, is that what they are called?)
The unit upgrades are unique. can't give 2 units the same one or give 1 unit two upgrades.
4+ Base? NEW MATH!

0 Flamers......3.13%
1 Flamers......66.67%
2 Flamers......93.75%
3 Flamers......99.31%
4 Flamers......99.96%
5 Flamers......100%

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





dreadlybrew wrote:
Does the webber trigger crossfire because its not a 1 damage weapon?

It may not end up ever dealing 1 damage the normal way, but a Webber does actually have a damage characteristic of 1 - so it only applies Crossfire like normal.
EDIT: Hey, would you look at that, it doesn't even "hit" its target. It does its thing before even getting to the hit roll!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/10 18:00:57


 Galef wrote:
If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
 
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





Yeah a Webber does nothing for Crossfire since it doesn't hit.
   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut




Not really impressed by any of the Assault weapons tbh.

- Webbers are really bad. Wording different from Flamers, generating no hits, and the special "wound" roll must be higher than that of the target unit, so wounding T3 on 4s, and T4 on 5s. +50% range, -43% hits, worse wounding, +100% cost. Horrible.

- Grenade Launcher. 10 points for a Krak Grenade at longer range? Nah. Maybe if your local Meta is infested by T3 infantry, so Frag has some use. Even then, still expensive.

- Flamer. Probably the best pick, especially with Shotguns.
   
Made in fr
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Portland,OR

hangnailnz wrote:
I don't understand why no one seems to be getting excited about Hivecult being able to perform actions and still shoot. This is pretty massive. We want to be dropping units into the backfield to set up crossfire anyway, and if that unit can Repair Teleport Homers at the same time - it seems like 15 guaranteed points.
Repeat with whatever Actions you feel like you want, and Secondaries should be a lot more manageable - so long as they can be completed within our turn...


Hive Cult might just be the "sleeper" Tourney winner.
   
Made in us
Brainy Zoanthrope





Hivecult/rusted claw double battalions are going to wreck some face. But can you cross cult crossfire?
   
Made in fr
Longtime Dakkanaut



Portland,OR

I don't think so......
   
Made in nz
Guard Heavy Weapon Crewman



New Zealand

The Crossfire rule only specifies friendly unit with Crossfire, not even <cult>... from what we have seen. Worth mentioning at this point that it doesn't have to be the unit that placed the Crossfire marker when working out if a unit is exposed, just another friendly Crossfire unit, so a backfield unit could place the marker, and then a unit of ridge-runners from either flank could make use of it if the marked unit is between them.
   
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Portland,OR

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWKN30M6Zpo Says it's the new rules....
   
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Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Niiai wrote:
Are there many negative modifiers on industrial weapons? The rock scissors come to mind. Moving with Neophytes. And when the enemy is behind terrain. Abberants don't get it anymore.


Any time I want to advance and shoot assault.

or fire thru dense.

or attack with a rock cutter.

Or attack an enemy with a -1 to hit mod.

or move and shoot heavy.

It's pretty fething dope as a trait lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
dreadlybrew wrote:
Hivecult/rusted claw double battalions are going to wreck some face. But can you cross cult crossfire?


You cannot because the Crossfire rule specifically states you can only get the Crossfire rule if you have only one <cult> in your army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Acehilator wrote:
Not really impressed by any of the Assault weapons tbh.

- Webbers are really bad. Wording different from Flamers, generating no hits, and the special "wound" roll must be higher than that of the target unit, so wounding T3 on 4s, and T4 on 5s. +50% range, -43% hits, worse wounding, +100% cost. Horrible.

- Grenade Launcher. 10 points for a Krak Grenade at longer range? Nah. Maybe if your local Meta is infested by T3 infantry, so Frag has some use. Even then, still expensive.

- Flamer. Probably the best pick, especially with Shotguns.


I ran Webbers for a spin the other day against SM and wasn't blown away, but wasn't actively made sad. 66% chance of instantly making its points back every time you point it at a baseline Intercessor (you know, because it does 1MW and their wounds cost 10pts) and if your opponent has anything fancier...like mine did, with Lightning Claw/Storm Shield Vanguard Veterans on the board which are more like 18 points per wound, they feel fairly strong.

I definitely think the GL is pretty crapola, though it is worth noting that S3/S4 stuff does benefit pretty nicely from Exposed if you can get it. S4 more than S3 though IMO - I unloaded a bunch of shotguns into a dreadnought with crossfire+exposed and hit them with a solid 3 wounds from just the AP- weapons.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/01/11 03:53:59


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




I can't make up my mind if Hivecult is the obvious competitive choice because objectives win games.

Or if its a fairly marginal bonus that just doesn't come up that much. I.E. "if" you were to do an action with 15 handflamer acolytes then also being able to shoot them is a good bonus. But if you are instead able to carry out that order with an MSU squad (and you'll likely have plenty) then being able to shoot with it is a fairly token bonus - compared with the perks available with other cults (or customs) that can be up much more of the time. Fall back and shoot is also a thing which I feel is overvalued relative to the utility it gives you. Again - if someone tags a unit of 15 handflamers being able to turn and burn is great. But I feel such a unit is going to be target number 1 for shooting so it shouldn't play out that way.

Also not really adding much - but unless there are synergies I'm missing, Abbs feel far too unreliable. I guess the 3 damage might be scary - and when it works it really works. But I feel the relatively low number of attacks, with relatively low AP, just gives too much opportunity for the dice to skew against you.
   
Made in it
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Tyel wrote:
I can't make up my mind if Hivecult is the obvious competitive choice because objectives win games.

Or if its a fairly marginal bonus that just doesn't come up that much. I.E. "if" you were to do an action with 15 handflamer acolytes then also being able to shoot them is a good bonus. But if you are instead able to carry out that order with an MSU squad (and you'll likely have plenty) then being able to shoot with it is a fairly token bonus - compared with the perks available with other cults (or customs) that can be up much more of the time. Fall back and shoot is also a thing which I feel is overvalued relative to the utility it gives you. Again - if someone tags a unit of 15 handflamers being able to turn and burn is great. But I feel such a unit is going to be target number 1 for shooting so it shouldn't play out that way.

Also not really adding much - but unless there are synergies I'm missing, Abbs feel far too unreliable. I guess the 3 damage might be scary - and when it works it really works. But I feel the relatively low number of attacks, with relatively low AP, just gives too much opportunity for the dice to skew against you.


Hive Cult is just useless when you can pick 1 action at most and you're going to play a monoCreeds that literally doesn't buff any melee unit whatsoever (and you're still shooting badly when you do not ignore your own Heavy penalties on your Neos)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/11 11:28:03


 
   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut




If anything is clear, it's that there is no such thing as an "obvious" choice in this codex. The depth of this book is crazy. Pretty such it's the best designed Codex of 9E so far.
   
Made in au
Hissing Hybrid Metamorph






So how are Neophytes looking? Their banner to bring d6 guys back is pretty neat. And with crossfire they seem more deadly. Seismic cannons and Webbers getting good as well helps them a bunch. And also still being able to take 2 of each weapon is a breath of fresh air in 9th, rather than 1 of each.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/11 13:38:32


 
   
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Bergen

The banner looks really exspensive for me. It is the cost of 3 neophytes (so after one roll you essentially gain it back.) However if every model in the unit gets wiped out it does not help. That is to say it is probbably very good in particular builds. 20 man blobs with neophytes and banners + banner bearer charcater to get 2d6 models backs:

Pauper princes relic gives the 5++. Very good with Xenorpohphet and just have tons of neophytes.

Bladed cog gets 6++ and can get 5++.

   
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Hissing Hybrid Metamorph






I didn’t even notice they can be is blobs of 20 now. That’s cool
   
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Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Cults Breakdown:

Codex GSC seems to pretty well hit the mark with most of their cults setups, in summary if you want to specialize/skew your army towards one particular setup, custom cults generally can do that slightly better than core cults, but core cults generally offer a wider breadth of options between all the goodies they bring. For that reason I think it helps to start with custom cults, break those down, and then go into the core cults to see what you could do to make a more rounded list with the slight mechanical disadvantage vs the custom setups.

Custom Cults:

Hunter's Instincts, Impassioned, Alien Fury, Toxin Agents, Cold-Eyed Killers, (Industrial Affinity)

-All these custom cult traits allow you to increase the damage and reliability of melee within your list. Now, initially reading through these, one might be tempted to say "Man, look at the damage I could do if I take Industrial Affinity to spam Rock Cutters, Toxin Agents and Cold Eyed Killers, or maybe Impassioned+Industrial" but I will say there is one factor to make one of these a lot better than it initially seems: Hunters Instincts. Typically, a 9" charge roll with a re-roll is under 50% odds - decent, but not good enough that you're willing to throw your chances 'to the wolves' so to speak. However, our charges are now 8" not 9" from deep strike, which is a roughly 42% base chance instead of 27% - with a re-roll our 8" charges are about a 66% chance of success, and if you take an Acolyte Iconward for the +1" you get up to an almost 80% chance. On everything. From deep strike.

That's pretty great. In terms of the pure power combo talking about competitive play (where money is no object) I think the combo you might see for a melee list is Hunters Instincts+Industrial Affinity and ALLLLLL the rock cutters, because the rock cutter is the one melee industrial weapon that is always going to be getting an effective +1 to hit from Industrial Affinity.

The power of Cold Eyed Killers is actually fairly small IMO because at this point theres very few melee weapons in our army that don't start at AP-2, and Toxin is both an awkward 2-cost and dependent on facing vehicles/monsters. Industrial results in one small "nice to have" buff where you can ignore -1 to hit mods from abilities, but it also gives you an always-on buff from Rock Cutters, which competitive lists will happily spam to take maximum advantage of it.

Deep Supplies, Agile Guerillas, Industrial Affinity, Symbiotic Broodmind, Martial.

AKA "The ones you want to consider if you've got a significant amount of shooting." obvious clean combos for 4 cult points are either Martial or Agile combined with Deep Supplies - I think Agile probably is the pick here, as there are many many many quick and easy ways to set up Crossfire on just about as many units as you want to have it on, and with Agile you're *probably* guaranteed that there won't be enough modifiers to worry about to really consider Industrial over Deep Supplies. Industrial does outperform Deep Supplies if you have more than 1 Industrial weapon in the unit you're firing and your opponent has a -1 modifier that they are applying, but it doesnt actually outperform by *that* much, and the number of times that will actually occur in a game is likely to be minimal compared to the number of times you, for example, just need to hit on low #s wound on low #s and you have some mining laser shot or similar high-value weapon that gets the one-per-attack reroll.

Symbiotic Broodmind is a weird one that can be combined with Industrial for a handy-dandy "Set up a modifier and then give yourself one super obvious way to ignore that built-in modifier." The main unit that you want to think about when you consider this combo is, "exactly how many Achilles Ridgerunners and big blobs of shooty neophytes am i considering bringing in my list today" because that is the main two units that actually want to be falling back and shooting. Heavy seismics and incinerators on rockgrinders, autocannons on trucks and obviously the Jackals with their baked-in fallback+Shoot all don't particularly need Symbiotic, the situation where this combo is really going to shine is when your opponent ties up a 3-man squad of Achilles with something dumb and you really do NOT want to give up those 3d3 Blast shots that can't be fired in melee. So, again, like most custom cults: Heavy skew is needed to get the value out of this.

Accustomed to Toil, Thralls of the Patriarch, War Convoy

These are the defensive ones. Thralls I think is probably among the least effective traits, would be worth considering if it were a 1, but at a 2....nah, I dont think so. Morale as a mechanic has so many baked in easy ways out, and this one locks you out of so many effective combos.

Toil and Convoy however are both IMO quite effective AND handy to combine with other more offensive traits. For example: Deep Supplies+Industrial+Convoy creates a really powerful combo for a lot of truck-borne neophyte squads and Jackal squads making use of Mining Lasers rendered much more reliable with the Deep Supplies reroll. Agile+Convoy+Toil is also a fairly handy combo for an extremely tough mechanized list that can really go balls to the wall with mobility and flexibility. Maxed out jackals, neophytes in trucks, plus a jackal alphus for an HQ that's fast enough to keep up would make for a hell of a scoring heavy list.

And lastly, we have Synaptic Resonance, which I think actually may get taken because there are a couple handy combos that are a 1-1-1 and this one is probably generally more useful to "Throw in there" than something like Cold Eyed which relis on you finding a melee weapon somewhere that isn't already AP-2 or Alien Fury which is just...very meh. If I was going Industrial+Toil+Convoy and I wanted to spend that fourth point, I think if I include just 1 patriarch or magus in the list Resonance looks better than Cold Eyed or Alien Fury.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
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 Tiberius501 wrote:
I didn’t even notice they can be is blobs of 20 now. That’s cool


They always could be.
   
Made in au
Hissing Hybrid Metamorph






Madjob wrote:
 Tiberius501 wrote:
I didn’t even notice they can be is blobs of 20 now. That’s cool


They always could be.


Huh… so they could. I just always saw them as 10 guys taken in trucks that I hadn’t even noticed lol.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Now, we compare the core cults to the custom cults. A common theme here is definitely going to be: Aspects of the core cults show up in the custom cults, and whether to go custom or core is going to rely on how well you make use of the core's unique aspects.

Hivecult, for example, includes the fall back and shoot with -1 ability available in a custom cult, but instead of having a 1 cult point ability, it has a unique second half: Fall Back and Advance and still perform an action, and can shoot while performing an action.

So that is worth considering as it will probably make one of your three secondaries much, MUCH easier to do even just when looking at the extra movement freedom you get for action performing. And of course then we have to get into the infomercial But Wait, Theres More! aspects of the core cults:

the Hivelord trait which is *most likely* going to wind up on a Primus given the restrictions on who can be your warlord and its obvious synergy with his other abilites actually starts to give a compelling argument for why 20-blocks of on foot neophytes isn't a bad idea. Combine them with an Iconward to make them obnoxious to fully kill, and then the cult trait means your opponent can't stop them by tying them up, you've just basically given yourself license to make a list-check list of "Did you bring enough anti-horde firepower to take down my huge wave of neophytes, or do I win?" As we'll see later, this isnt' the *only* cult you can be trying this with, but I think overall its probably the better one, because offensive power as opposed to defensive power allows you to be putting more pressure on your opponent - by scoring a ton using your handy-dandy cult action trait, and by removing the tools in their list that can actually clear out your horde of scrubs.

Fire Discipline is also a handy tool for those big-unit setups, because if you are taking a foot horde you're not going to have the obvious Goliath trucks to tag enemy units with Crossfire tokens before the big neophyte hordes open up. You'll definitely want to have bare minimum a sniper Sanctus or a Jackal Alphus in the setup to get a couple more free tokens out on the board as well, but this is a nice bonus to ensure your 20-blocks never need to hit on 4s.

Vockor's Talisman is something of an oddball in the rest of the Hivecult setup, since its obvious use case screams "Put me on a patriarch and make it so he kills God!" but the rest of the goodies - the creed, the strat, the trait - are all based around CORE infantry shooting. The simple alternative to it is to just take Alien Magesty on your aura-giving Primus to make him more flexible, but hey, statistically this is probably the best combat trait out there for a Patriarch, so if you want him you can throw him in as a counter charge piece.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in no
Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

I am tempted to take a double detachment with synaptic ressonance. And take 2 maguses and 2 patrirach and cast a lott of spells. Re-rolling 1 and 2 should give me very consistent smites.

   
Made in us
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 Niiai wrote:
I am tempted to take a double detachment with synaptic ressonance. And take 2 maguses and 2 patrirach and cast a lott of spells. Re-rolling 1 and 2 should give me very consistent smites.


Personally I think double cult play is essentially dead with the limitation of only one cult to Crossfire. It's too valuable a rule to give up, even if your list is a melee list because of the 1cp fights last strat.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in no
Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

They would be part of the same cult. Re-rolling 1 and 2 on a psyckick power is just very strong. The biggest problem is running out of psykick powers. With 4 casters I am dividing 6 powers between 8 spell slots. Not ideal. Also, losing CP sounds insane because the relics and warkord traits look really good. (At least for now in the eraly days.)

   
 
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