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Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Rusted Claw is another one that's going to be directly in competition with Custom Cults, since arguably the main ability (move/advance and count as Stationary) is one of the available custom cult traits, this time only as a 2 point.

Objectively, this is a situation where you can *probably* get more mileage out of a custom trait combo that is trying to do the exact same thing as this core trait - Agile+Toil+Convoy gives you mini-transhuman and a 6+FNP on bikes/vehicles compared to +1 armor save vs AP-1 AP-2.

Let's say you're running some Jackal Bikes, as you obviously would as either RC or the ATC combo above. Assume the firer is BS3+:

Heavy Bolter vs RC: 1 wound
Heavy Bolter vs ATC: 1.11 wounds

Plasma (overcharged) Vs RC: 1.666 wounds
Plasma (overcharged) vs ATC: 1.11 wounds

but wait, the comparison gets even worse! A 6+ fnp against those damage 2 hits even in the heavy bolter comparison makes the advanage of flinging D2 at our poor W2 biker-bois much less effective, as any time you roll 1 of your FNPs (roughly 30% chance of at least 1 6 with 2 dice) you cause a model to survive a D2 hit, which means the next wound GUARANTEED only does 1 damage to the squad. The averages don't tell the whole story here.

In terms of your tanks, ATC almost ALWAYS works out better simply because most antitank weapons are just not Ap-1 or Ap-2, and the mini-transhuman may not help you out much but when it does block a +1 to wound ability, it is quite nice. Realistically RC is really only likely to be better when youre looking at units like Acolytes, who don't get the 6+FNP from Convoy...but you're playing Rusted Claw, what are you doing if youre not spamming vehicles and bikes? Play a cult with good melee support!

So, maybe RC's trait isn't great - what about the rest of its goodies? Well...bad news, theyre also among the more lackluster of the core cults.

The standout is probably Inescapable Decay. Unlike our melee attacks, the shooting weapons we're armed with typically *do* like to have an extra point of AP here and there, particularly stuff like Autocannons, Shotguns/bike small arms, seismic cannons...even mining lasers going to AP-4 can be useful if your opponent is dumb enough to field a non-invuln'd vehicle. Psh. Non-invulned vehicles. In 9th edition? As if. Maybe in a mirror match.

The nomad's mantle is another obvious 'put me on a patriarch' relic, though I will say...fething hilarious on a Kelermorph as well. The warlord trait is...fine, but again our main melee HQ and AP? Gee thanks, my claws are AP-7 now on a 6! Drive-By Demolitions is no longer a source of additional movement, and serves mostly as an amusing little capability than as something really impactful. Fun fact: A unit of RC jackals can throw demo charges in 3/6 phases of the game turn if they want to, and you bought them 3.

Overall, while I don't think RC is a "Burn Your Models, Youve Been Robbed" scenario, from a competitive standpoint I think it is the core cult with the least to recommend it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Twisted Helix

Again we continue the theme of "Part of the creed is available as custom." In this case, it's definitely the least important part of the creed though, the mini-transhuman, and the most important parts, the +1" move and +1S, are totally unique to the Twisted Helix.

This. Is. The. Cult. For. Genestealers! Don't be fooled by the Aberrant-specific stratagem, holy CRAP does this cult just turn those purestrains into blenders of instant and bloody death.

4++, mini-transhuman defenses. +1" movement for 9" move+Advance+charge threat range. That crucial S4->S5 bump granting a wound shift against so many targets. WOOF. Pair them up with a Patriarch who can have the Jazz Hands of Death (Bio-Alchemist Trait and S6 base from the creed) and exploding 6s to hit and 5++ FNP from the prime specimen relic, and you can have a fast, killy, deadly horde of rough tough customers.

There are ostensibly a few buffs on hand for Aberrants, and of course since youll want the extra free enhancement on your Patriarch youll probably take him, so itd probably be worth bringing 5 aberrants for the initial on-board use of the biophagus' special rule. Monstrous Bio-Horrors isnt the worst strat in the world, occasionally you might end up against a horde of something and youll want to just cleave up some guys, so it adds a bit of flexibility, but mostly youd take the squad just to get a guaranteed 5+FNP enhancement on the turn the biophagus drops down.

The biophagus isn't BAD just to use on Acolytes on the turn they drop, since Acolytes are one of the few units where the AP- roll isn't a bit of a sad trombone note, but hey, its twisted helix, aberrants are cool, live a little.

Mutagenic Deviation is a fairly solid psychic buff power, combos nicely with Might from Beyond as yet another tool that turns those genestealers into absolute beastmode shredding machines. All in all, this is a creed where outside of the iffy strat, it's pretty easy to make use of every part of the four-armed mutated muscle-bound buffalo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Pauper Princes

Remember Hivecult's general army setup? Neophytes on foot in 20-blocks instead of in trucks, Acolyte Squidward waving his flag and resurrecting dudes, Primus handing out shooting buffs cus hey a bunch of CORE on the battlefield, that whole thing?

PP is that, but with Defenses.

The all-important, traited-up, relic'd up Primus returns, this time with the Reliquary of Saint Tenndarc and the Xenoprophet trait so that he can just never be killed until you kill all his Neophyte buddies - you can go for Alien Majesty to extend his auras out to 9" for more flexibility but you probably want to bring a Locus along with him to keep him from ever getting shot because he IS important and he DOES just have a 5+ save.

The list setup here is probably a bunch of jackals providing a screen for those aforementioned bunch of neophytes, and a couple, maybe just one unit of close combat stuff of some sort looking to get in and get frisky to make use of the +1 to hit part of the trait. Overall a good cult for a mix of shooting and melee if you don't like having to buy a bunch of trucks.

Strat sucks. Sadly/not that sadly most of the cult-specific stratagems aren't exactly game changers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bladed Cog

Silly Helix, Aberrants are for Cogs!

Bladed Cog has unfortunately lost its move and shoot capability, which does mean that the bladed cog neophyte squad in a truck is probably not what it once was, but fortunately you do have synergy with a unit that is genuinely very effective now, which is your Jackal bikers. A bladed cog list with a lot of jackals packing 1 mining laser to make use of the BC re-roll makes for a very good mobile scoring core for the list, while the melee bomb portion of the list I advise a setup maybe like this:

Biophagus (15pt upgrade)
10x Hybrid Metamorphs (exploding 6s from the Biophagus upgrade)
10x Aberrants (Biophagus grants them a 5+FNP when he drops in with them, also purchase them a 5++ for 2CP)
Magus (Broodvolt Surge to make it more obnoxious for your opponent to clear out your melee guys the turn after they drop in)

I do think that the main draw for this cult is the power and the stratagem, the relic and trait are just..not amazing, comparative to other more utility focused traits/relics...mostly because if you bring that magus in deep strike he is most likely just going to be providing a wound reroll for you to kill something that with 10 metamorphs and 10 aberrants is already going to be super, super, super, super dead anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
CT4AE

AKA "The Wildcard Guys." Seriously what a weird wild mix of stuff. They've lost the vaunted Vect of yesteryear, instead now having the 0CP 'make your opponent spend 1-2 more CP' thing that you use on Transhuman or Fire and Fade or whatever. Their trait is bizarrely schitzophrenic, with their melee units getting a charge reroll while their range units want to stay away - pretty solid with the classic army comp of having a basic core of truck neophytes and ridgerunners holding the line until the turn 2 deep strike melee units come in. Their relic is...a general grievous joke? 4 additional attacks, autowounds on a 6...I mean you obviously put it on a Primus to make him do stuff in melee, but, still weird. And the trait is a "Moar CP" thing, albeit a good one, because its just guaranteed, you dont have to roll to get your once per turn 1cp bonus.

The psychic power is kind of neat, too, a good way to keep units at bay while you wait for your own melee forces to arrive.

All in all, this cult is just...a little bit of everything. None of it is especially bad, just weird. And probably optimized for more TAC play than tournament players typically get up to, so I doubt we'll see much of it on the competitive stage as they opt more for the wacky "I ebayed 24 Heavy Rock Cutters for my Industrial Affinity+Reroll Charge acolyte spam army" and leave aside all the funky extra stuff that CT4AE lets them bring to the table.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2022/01/11 17:32:36


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





I'm thinking of doing a largely CC-bend for my first game.

Patriarch
Primus
3x 5-man's with Cutters
3x Goliath Rock Grinders
2x 10-man Neophytes with Seismic Cannons and Grenade Launchers
2x Goliath Trucks
3x 10-man Purestrains (1 w/They Came From Below)
1x 15-man Hand Flamer Acolytes w/6x Rock Saws & A Trap Sprung
Reductus Sabotuer w/Relic Pistol of Crossfire
Sanctus w/Relic Sniper

Traits I'm thinking of for this are:
- Reroll 1 wound roll per unit.
- Ignore hit modifiers
- 6+ FnP on vehicles.

I'm thinking of maybe switching up 2 of the units of Stealers for 2x 2-man units of Ridgerunners, because the Ridgerunners will benefit from the traits more.

I REALLY like Industrial Affinity because it means you're always Crossfiring at 3+ to hit. I'm looking to use the Sanctus to set up the Crossfire chain (automatically applies it to one target, then next unit targets that same one with the killy stuff, and targets a 2nd unit with the not-killy stuff in order to apply a Crossfire token THERE).

 Galef wrote:
If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
 
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





re-read the crossfire rules. You can't split fire and apply markers.

And why the relic Sniper? Do you value +1 damage that much? Because that is all it does.
   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut




No split fire to generate Crossfire markers. If you want to use Crossfire at all, Nexos with Cranial Inlay relic is the first thing you put into your army.

Re: Bladed Cog. Relic goes on an Abo. No questions asked.

/edit: And yeah, if you want the Sanctus on Crossfire duty, don't waste a relic on him. +12" range, -1 AP and +1D is nice, but we have too many great ones.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/11 18:01:32


 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Acehilator wrote:
No split fire to generate Crossfire markers. If you want to use Crossfire at all, Nexos with Cranial Inlay relic is the first thing you put into your army.


Seems like you can get pretty good crossfire chains going with Sanctus+Jackal Alphus. Jackal seems really good in a shooty list just because in my experience, crossfire is easy...Exposed is HARD, so its nice to be able to set it up on demand.

Sanctus+Nexos does seem pretty good for Crossfire setup though. Seems like youd get basically all you need there.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





Alphus only works if your using Neophytes on foot, can't buff inside trucks and Neophytes out of trucks just die unless your running big blops

Not being able to effect Ridgerunners really hurts the usefullness of the Alphus.

For exposed I would look to Jackals. Both for being fast to move around something and because of the strat to give a unit within 6" expose for the rest of your army

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/11 18:18:49


 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Acehilator wrote:


Re: Bladed Cog. Relic goes on an Abo. No questions asked.



Ahhh, yep, forgot about the Abominant. If you are gonna use him the 4++ relic is pretty solid as a pickup, gives even more of your list that absurd hyper-durable invuln+damage reduction+5+FNP profile.

Shame he's still so unreliable in combat, though of course the BC reroll trait will work nicely on him.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut




Abo has a hit/wound reroll build-in with his familiar (it's permanent like the Sanctus familiar), so he gets two as BC.

Alphus is still good for Crossfire duty. It's 10 points more and less reliable than the Sanctus, but you cannot double up on the latter, and you might want three Crossfire per turn. Also redundancy, covering more angles (14" move), and double-up with the Sanctus to remove squishy support characters (*cough* upcoming CWE *cough*). "Priority Target" is just a bonus.

Another cool unit to trigger Crossfire are Rockgrinders with Clearance Incinerator - 2d6 autohits plus one or two hits from the Heavy Stubber, pretty reliable.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/11 19:07:02


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Connecticut

PP 5++ Build with 2 Nexos, 2 Iconwards, 3x20 Neos with banners and seismics, 3x10 Jackals, 3x15 Acos with Drills.

Absolutely loving the look of it.

Upset the Patriarch doesnt buff anything and is just a beatstick now.

Blood Angels, Custodes, Tzeentch, Alpha Legion, Astra Militarum, Deathwatch, Thousand Sons, Imperial Knights, Tau, Genestealer Cult.

I have a problem.

Being contrary for the sake of being contrary doesn't make you unique, it makes you annoying.

 Purifier wrote:
Using your rules isn't being a dick.
 
   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut




Character cap one each per detachment, not really worth paying 2 CP to double up I think.

- Patriarch is better than ever. Purestrains don't need his aura anymore, and immunity to morale is not a thing in 9E anymore, either. 4++ and know two/cast two psychic powers is amazeballs. One less unit to juggle aura coverage with = absolute win.

- Jackal max. unit size is 9 (3-7 bikes, max. two Quads)

- both large Jackal units and 15 blobs of Acos have a footprint problem, really not sure if you want five of those

- playing PP without the unkillable Patriarch (PP WL trait) seems like a waste

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/11 22:59:14


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Connecticut

Its a Battalion and a Patrol.

Absolutely worth it, lets you extend the relic to all 3 Jackal units across the table.

“Better than ever” is a little broad of a claim, he’s definitely a strong singular unit but his lack of utility compared to a Primus for PP specifically is a shame.

No. Jackal units are 10. 8 Bikes (1 Leader), 2 Quads, just like the boxes they come in.

You likely lose enough models that a “footprint” isnt going to be an issue with GSC.

Primus has more value, and the moment you’re spreading the relic aura to more units the value of a Pat goes down.

Blood Angels, Custodes, Tzeentch, Alpha Legion, Astra Militarum, Deathwatch, Thousand Sons, Imperial Knights, Tau, Genestealer Cult.

I have a problem.

Being contrary for the sake of being contrary doesn't make you unique, it makes you annoying.

 Purifier wrote:
Using your rules isn't being a dick.
 
   
Made in no
Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

I am atempting to build some new GSC. It is based on the old list that I cad some suckess with in 9th edition, with the 8th edition codex. But I am over points and I am not happy with it. If you don't want to read my rmabelings I have put it in a spoiler. Suggestions are welcome, I am on a bit of a loss.

Spoiler:

That list was based around goliath trucks with acolytes with handflamers in them. Ridgerunners and Sanctus as fire support. I ditched all other characters as they would just get sniped by the lokal meta. (An ork player with 2 dakkajets.) I used CP to get one unit into melee relable from reserves.

In this new list I have tryed some new elements. Small units of accolytes with handflamers to show up turn 2 and 3 to give exsposed. Sanctus and Jackal Alphus are there to give crossfire tokens. (They can also threaten characters with sniping.) What else is new is that Abberants are now quite good, so they have replaced the accolytes as the premium melee unit.

* Abberants should be able to get a charge from reserve on 3d6, 8" charge. Thanks A to trap sprung.
* 5 units of abberant goes in goliath truck 1 with the patriarch. (Feels bad when it explodes.) Our time is night gives them ekstra attacks on the first fight.
* Other truck has the 10 man unit of accolytes.
* 6 man purestrain unit goes with rockgrinder to have a bigger threath range when they charge from it.
* Biophagus with Alechemist Supreme can inject the 5 man group of abberants pregame, and when he deploys with the 10 man unit of abberants he can inject them as well. I am thinking enchance resillience for that 5+++. Beastial Vigor, T5 and 3 wounds shouled hopefully be sturdy.

I am not sett on creed yet. But War convoy will be good. I really love Agile Gurilla for the vehicles , or impasisoned for the melee units. I would love to tune the list a bit more.

315 points for the fat unit of abberants feels to much, to many eggs in one basket. The Patriarch also feels redudant here. With so many melee ellements I fear people will just do counter offensive and counter him.

I would like to find more points for another transport with either purestrains or acolytes with flamers. Perhaps even a minimum unit of ridgerunners to give exsposed. Nexos could be good to give CP, but I don't know where to hide him.

HQ
1x Patriarch. 140
1x Jackal Alphus. 80

Troops
5x accolytes, 5x hand flamers. 60
5x accolytes, 5x hand flamers. 60
5x accolytes, 5x hand flamers. 60
10x acolytes, 6x hand flamers, 4x mining weapons. 148

Elites
10x Abberants, A Trap Sprung. 315
5x Abberants, Our Time is Nigh. 160
6x Purestrain Genestealers. 84
1x Biophagus, Alchemist Supreme. 55
1x Sanctus. 80 (gets crossfire from sniper rifle)
1x Reductus Sabotour. 80 (with relic gun to give crossifre)

Fast Attack
3x Ridgerunner, Heavy Mining Laser. 240
3x Ridgerunner, Heavy Mining Laser. 240

Heavy Support
1x Rockgrinder. 110

Dedicated Transport
1x Goliath Truck. 90
1x Goliath Truck. 90

2092/2000



On a review I realise that I have cut a lot of accolytes with flamers from the 8th edition list for abberants and purestrains. I don't know, maibe I am meandering to far from where I begun. Abberants and purestrains just look so good now! And the rockgrinder is nice.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/01/12 00:16:41


   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Acehilator wrote:
Character cap one each per detachment, not really worth paying 2 CP to double up I think.

- Patriarch is better than ever. Purestrains don't need his aura anymore, and immunity to morale is not a thing in 9E anymore, either. 4++ and know two/cast two psychic powers is amazeballs. One less unit to juggle aura coverage with = absolute win.

- Jackal max. unit size is 9 (3-7 bikes, max. two Quads)

- both large Jackal units and 15 blobs of Acos have a footprint problem, really not sure if you want five of those

- playing PP without the unkillable Patriarch (PP WL trait) seems like a waste


7 jackals plus jackal leader plus 2 quads = 10.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





I feel that I need to understand better what's GSC's overall strategy. It feels like the whole crossfire rules and blips and ambush shenanegans is meant to facilitate shooting, stealing objectives and such.

So, GSC should mainly focus more on its shooting? Because you don't really benefit from crossfire if you are fielding a mostly melee army right? But one problem with GSC is that a lot of the units are quite fragile. So, you might get some good shooting in, but you aren't going to have the staying power to just keep on shooting all 5 rounds. I feel that you simply won't last.

So, what's the GSC strategy? Use cross fire rules to shoot off opponents from objectives and then steal objectives off. Do we aim for like mutual destruction where we kill a lot but we die quickly as well, but manage to squeeze out wins because we are stealing away objectives while we are killing ?

Or is it more of, we don't mind losing most of our army (because its fragile), but we will win by VP by the end of the game because we have too much of a lead in points because of our GSC shenenagons.

Or is it we aim to use cross fire and GSC rules and the strength of our codex to outright obliterate so much of the opponents army in earlier turns such that there is no way for them to come back. So, we are aiming to hit our opponent so hard they will be out for the count.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Connecticut

The fun part is there is a perfectly viable cult for shooting, melee, mixed, etc

You can quite literally pick an aspect of the game you want to try to focus on and be just as viable. Its a genuinely fluid codex.

Blood Angels, Custodes, Tzeentch, Alpha Legion, Astra Militarum, Deathwatch, Thousand Sons, Imperial Knights, Tau, Genestealer Cult.

I have a problem.

Being contrary for the sake of being contrary doesn't make you unique, it makes you annoying.

 Purifier wrote:
Using your rules isn't being a dick.
 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Eldenfirefly wrote:

So, GSC should mainly focus more on its shooting? Because you don't really benefit from crossfire if you are fielding a mostly melee army right? But one problem with GSC is that a lot of the units are quite fragile. So, you might get some good shooting in, but you aren't going to have the staying power to just keep on shooting all 5 rounds. I feel that you simply won't last.
.


you know honestly the impression i got from the game I tried was: That's not actually true anymore. We have genuinely tough vehicles, bikers, genestealers, aberrants...even a squad of Neophytes with One with Shadows and a 5+FNP buff from a biophagus weathered insane firepower and lost like 4 models. I'm talking literally a dakka redemptor dread and like 6 assault bolter intercessors+5 infiltrators all in a captain aura.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in it
Fresh-Faced New User




Is it confirmed that the industrial melee weapons in acolytes teams are reduced to 1/5/type?
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





quantumgravity wrote:
Is it confirmed that the industrial melee weapons in acolytes teams are reduced to 1/5/type?
No, the evil DG writer did not touch our codex, Acolytes are still 2 heavy weapons per 5.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/12 12:25:46


 
   
Made in it
Fresh-Faced New User




Sorry, I meant that now we can only take 1 saw/cutter/drill, for 2 acolytes. So any combination of 2 of the industrial melee and not 2x as before
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





quantumgravity wrote:
Sorry, I meant that now we can only take 1 saw/cutter/drill, for 2 acolytes. So any combination of 2 of the industrial melee and not 2x as before
no, any 2 you want. duplicates are fine.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Cephalobeard wrote:
The fun part is there is a perfectly viable cult for shooting, melee, mixed, etc

You can quite literally pick an aspect of the game you want to try to focus on and be just as viable. Its a genuinely fluid codex.


Its unlikely to play out that way competitively.

I feel if GSC have a weakness - and so the Codex doesn't prove as powerful as some expect - its in that its hard to do a boring A+B+C=overpowered.
I think you do need multiple parts - and unlike say DE, the power is in the synergy rather than raw numbers.

Genestealers for instance are undoubtedly good against any T that matches their S. But I feel they start to drop off quite badly once they are wounding on 5s and only doing one damage. Without Helix that means they'll have issues with Custodes and DG Terminators - never mind vehicles/monsters with T6+. Compare this with say Incubi who can chop through basically anything in a reasonably efficient way. They are not as point and click as I feel some commentators have made out.

I want to like a Pauper Prince list, with a Neophyte firebase blob under a 5++, while Acolytes/Metamorphs/Abbs go punch units on objectives. But I'm not sure I do in a strictly competitive sense. Mainly I think because its fiddly - and that usually means things can go wrong.
   
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Hissing Hybrid Metamorph






With neophytes, is it better to just take heavy weapons and forget about the special weapons? I would imagine though that a blob of shotguns with 4 webbers could be pretty cool tho
   
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Bergen

I don't really know Neophytes role in the new codex. The overload stratagem is what makes the seismic cannon interesting to me.

The shotgun Neophytes that arrive within 3 is a good one time objective grabb. Especially if the opponent tries to counterplay against it the rest of your cult can take advantage of odd positioning.

Somebody will have to run the numbers, but I suspect outside of very spesific build where you give Neophytes 5++ acolytes with flamers will just be better. With the exception of beeing sturdy.

People have talked about trucks with laser Neophytes in them. And I just think that sounds like bad fire trucks or bad ridge runners.

As for special weapons I would be supriced if they are much good. The grenade launcher can hang out at that 24 range, but is it any good? Perhaps mimum units of Neophytes with double flamer to give crossfire token and exposed that survive a bit more then the corresponding acolyte group. 70 points VS 60, double number of wounds.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/01/12 15:50:12


   
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Regular Dakkanaut




Uses for Neophytes (if you don't want to lean heavily into them) would be action monkey/backfield screen only, I guess.

For Neophyte hordes, PP and RC are the top picks.

RC has more output from the Industrial weapons and better movement, PP has 5++ everywhere it counts with the relic. But with their special rule, RC is still on a 5+ vs AP 0/-1.
   
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Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Niiai wrote:
I don't really know Neophytes role in the new codex. The overload stratagem is what makes the seismic cannon interesting to me.

The shotgun Neophytes that arrive within 3 is a good one time objective grabb. Especially if the opponent tries to counterplay against it the rest of your cult can take advantage of odd positioning.

Somebody will have to run the numbers, but I suspect outside of very spesific build where you give Neophytes 5++ acolytes with flamers will just be better. With the exception of beeing sturdy.

People have talked about trucks with laser Neophytes in them. And I just think that sounds like bad fire trucks or bad ridge runners.

As for special weapons I would be supriced if they are much good. The grenade launcher can hang out at that 24 range, but is it any good? Perhaps mimum units of Neophytes with double flamer to give crossfire token and exposed that survive a bit more then the corresponding acolyte group. 70 points VS 60, double number of wounds.


Neophytes' role is as a trickier to kill heavy weapon platform than Ridgerunners, which can also do actions, clear chaff, grab points, get buffs, etc.

In trucks, they're fantastic for snagging both Crossfire and Exposed, as the truck itself can score them a crossfire token and there are a number of ways to make them quite mobile.

Obviously, the other variant way to use Neophytes is as the core of a Hivecult or PP blob list, but for most armies they seem pretty solid as a sustained combat unit.

2x Seismics plus a goliath puts out a large amount of damage flat 2 firepower, and low-S weapons seem to benefit quite heavily from exposed.

Webbers dont seem all that bad to me, either. IDK. Seemed to me the second i pointed them at a MEQ, even a cheap one, they instantly made their 10 points back. Definitely agree the GL is pretty crap, the flamer seems a bit better. People are talking about acolytes in trucks with hand flamers, but:

5x HF acolytes: 17.5 S3 autohits
10x shotgun neophytes with 2x flamers: 70pts, 17 S4 hits (7 autohits) which in this army actually scales up more than it scales down thanks to Crossfire +1 to hit....also once they get cracked out of their transport, they're nearly doubly as difficult to kill and almost half their firepower hinges on killing the last 2 wounds.

Another point of comparison is Jackals: 10 man squad with 2x mining lasers is 174, Neophyte squad with 2x lasers in a truck is 180. The Jackals have extra special rules, but the first 10 wounds you have to do to even get to removing the shotguns/lasers has to go through T6 3+ -1 damage. And that's not even to mention the fact that the neos get an extra 4 autocannon shots+stubber.

Neos seem pretty competent to me. Obviously, dependent on subfaction, the "advance and still do everything" subfaction traits favor them heavily, as does the obvious PP/Hivecult. But that's no different than any unit in 9e.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/12 17:58:42


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in no
Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

 JNAProductions wrote:
Spoiler:
 Ordana wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 Ordana wrote:
KurtAngle2 wrote:
The day I'll do fewer hits than 5 on auto hitting 5D6s I'll let you know
if your trying to be cheap you bring 3 flamers for still an almost guaranteed 5 hits. 2 flamers + 3 pistols is probably not good enough but I havn't done the math on that.
Are they BS 3+ or 4+? Assuming 3+...

Numbers are as follows:

99.97% chance of 5+ hits from 4d6 Flamer hits and 1 pistol shot.
99.59% chance of 5+ hits from 3d6 Flamer hits and 2 pistol shots.
96.30% chance of 5+ hits from 2d6 Flamer hits and 3 pistol shots.
77.78% chance of 5+ hits from 1d6 Flamer hits and 4 pistol shots.
13.17% chance of 5+ hits from 5 pistol shots alone.

Two Flamers seems like the sweet spot, actually.
They are 4+ base and I wouldn't assume Crossfire because that is what your trying to trigger. Should still be good with 2, tho I would probably still go 3 just to be really sure unless you desperately need the 3 points elsewhere.

 Niiai wrote:
Why does not rusted claw avoid the - 1 from heavy weapons? Is it a spesific wording for GSC? Arriving from reserves count as a normal move. Rusted claw count as remaining stationary until the end of the shooting phase.

With athelan jackals beeing fairly cheap and sturdy for their price they can just sipp back on the back end of the table and try to trigger exposed. Those and ridge runners are probably the most movement per unit for points. 4 jackals can also. Space out quite wide.

I just had a hilarious thought of not taking anything but small infnatery to make the opponents heavy weapons really suck. Just supercost every unit starting on the board with 'they came from below' and suddenly you have a pre game move on all units. Sort of like Necrons have (expansionist, is that what they are called?)
The unit upgrades are unique. can't give 2 units the same one or give 1 unit two upgrades.


4+ Base? NEW MATH!

0 Flamers......3.13%
1 Flamers......66.67%
2 Flamers......93.75%
3 Flamers......99.31%
4 Flamers......99.96%
5 Flamers......100%


What is the math on 10 neophytes, 2 with flamers? Somewhere a lot hier then 2 flamers i assume. The different in points is 51 points vs 70 points (so quite a lot.) But you have 10 wounds vs 5 wounds.

   
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In My Lab

 Niiai wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Spoiler:
 Ordana wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 Ordana wrote:
KurtAngle2 wrote:
The day I'll do fewer hits than 5 on auto hitting 5D6s I'll let you know
if your trying to be cheap you bring 3 flamers for still an almost guaranteed 5 hits. 2 flamers + 3 pistols is probably not good enough but I havn't done the math on that.
Are they BS 3+ or 4+? Assuming 3+...

Numbers are as follows:

99.97% chance of 5+ hits from 4d6 Flamer hits and 1 pistol shot.
99.59% chance of 5+ hits from 3d6 Flamer hits and 2 pistol shots.
96.30% chance of 5+ hits from 2d6 Flamer hits and 3 pistol shots.
77.78% chance of 5+ hits from 1d6 Flamer hits and 4 pistol shots.
13.17% chance of 5+ hits from 5 pistol shots alone.

Two Flamers seems like the sweet spot, actually.
They are 4+ base and I wouldn't assume Crossfire because that is what your trying to trigger. Should still be good with 2, tho I would probably still go 3 just to be really sure unless you desperately need the 3 points elsewhere.

 Niiai wrote:
Why does not rusted claw avoid the - 1 from heavy weapons? Is it a spesific wording for GSC? Arriving from reserves count as a normal move. Rusted claw count as remaining stationary until the end of the shooting phase.

With athelan jackals beeing fairly cheap and sturdy for their price they can just sipp back on the back end of the table and try to trigger exposed. Those and ridge runners are probably the most movement per unit for points. 4 jackals can also. Space out quite wide.

I just had a hilarious thought of not taking anything but small infnatery to make the opponents heavy weapons really suck. Just supercost every unit starting on the board with 'they came from below' and suddenly you have a pre game move on all units. Sort of like Necrons have (expansionist, is that what they are called?)
The unit upgrades are unique. can't give 2 units the same one or give 1 unit two upgrades.


4+ Base? NEW MATH!

0 Flamers......3.13%
1 Flamers......66.67%
2 Flamers......93.75%
3 Flamers......99.31%
4 Flamers......99.96%
5 Flamers......100%


What is the math on 10 neophytes, 2 with flamers? Somewhere a lot hier then 2 flamers i assume. The different in points is 51 points vs 70 points (so quite a lot.) But you have 10 wounds vs 5 wounds.
At work. I used Anydice to check my math, but I can get the numbers to you once I’m out.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in no
Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

Well, assuming that all neophytes are in range to shoot twice (12") I think the question is will one flamer be enough, or should you get two?

With one handflamer and 4 guns you have 1d6 autohits and 4 bs4. But with one flamer on neophytes you get 1d6 autohits and 18 bs4.

10 bs 4+ should have 50% to get 5 hits. 20 bs+ 4 should have 75% to get 5 hits. But the flamer throws me off.

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




No one is talking about our most improved unit so I'll hint my excitement with this video on YT:




I'm waiting for next week to test out some lists with them. 8th was fun but it felt wrong that no one would even consider the most iconic unit of the faction. Now they look durable and deadly. Especially with decent terrain on the board. I don't see many armies being able to get rid of 2-3 squads of these by T1. I know everyone is excited for our new faction buffs but man I was sold on our elite's improvements.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/13 02:10:36


 
   
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Bergen

Edit: Tried to write something funny, but bad judgment told me it probably was not funny.

Glad to see hype around the codex.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/01/13 04:09:45


   
 
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