Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

While the games all simplify autoguns down to a standardized statline, the truth is that there will be myriad different patterns of autogun. Just as there are thousands upon thousands of different real world guns.

I don't think they are ever portrayed as junk, they are practically identical to Lasguns in terms of actual performance and statblock, but they are portrayed as being suboptimal. This is down purely to logistics of course. An interstellar empire would have great benefit from cutting out ammunition shipments in their logistics network, at least for small arms. Instead, you can have portable generators to recharge your troops infantry weapons and have the saved space carry more artillery shells or guardsmen.

Because of this, Autoguns are more common among local defense forces or civilian/local militias/cultists because there autoguns make more sense. Lasguns are more complex finnicky pieces of technology than a mechanical firearm. Autoguns do have some advantages over Lasguns too. Being less technologically complicated means that an individual trooper can basically perform any maintenance the weapon could need, lasguns would occasionally need the skilled and expensive attention of the Mechanicus.

A local PDF regiment might find it cheaper to produce and maintain a locally produced autogun than buy lasguns from offworld because the local PDF troopers would need to be trained to use and maintain lasguns, weapons they may not be familiar with as opposed to local weapons that are produced and sold to the local civilians and thus the PDF troopers are already familiar with them.

Autoguns also have the advantage that you can have specialized ammunition for them. If your troops are facing heavily armored foes, you can distribute armor piercing ammunition. Lasguns.... You CAN overcharge the lasguns, but doing such unauthorized modifications will have detrimental effects on the long term use of the weapon, and getting your troops some hotshot lasguns or powerpacks is an additional expense.

A governor would also be supporting local industry by using locally manufactured autoguns which would give benefits to everyone, and if the Governor happens to own stakes in these weapon manufacturers...


All modern firearms would be classified as Autoguns, and indeed some of the Autoguns in 40k seem to be direct derivatives of real firearms.

In terms of the guns looking big and chunky, there is potentially a good reason to make your gun overbuilt and chunky. Such weapons will basically last till the end of time. A real world type 2 AK-47 with a milled Receiver and sporadic use could easily still be functioning for hundreds or thousands of years into the future. Even with heavy use and its barrel rifling worn smooth, it will still function as long as basic maintenance is performed.

 Flinty wrote:
Once fully fledged, they will be firing boltguns from within powered armour. Recoil is rather irrelevant when the servos kick in. If the armour is damaged to the point it loses power to recoil stabilization, then the wearer probably has more problems than a bit of rowdy recoil.

It might help a bit with weapon maintenance and understanding physical ammo weapons i guess. But even the ballistic trajectory of bolt ammo will be fundamentally different to conventional rounds, so even that doesn't help much.

I apologise for spoiling your nice idea :(

I thought about that, and here’s what I reckon.

Power Armour does help with recoil, but can’t truly eliminate it, especially without the Black Carapace - the lack of which means there is lag between bodily action and the armour moving. So there’s still use in training Novitiates with autoguns, as sooner or later they need to learn A) recoil exists B) how to compensate for it.

I’m also wondering if forcibly suppressing recoil would damage your gun? I mean, it’s an inherent part of the gun firing mechanism. And the force generated? Well, it’s gotta go somewhere. If Power Armour forced the Bolter to be steady, surely that’s just gonna damage the gun’s internals.

My head canon here is Power Armour doesn’t eliminate recoil as such, but automatically compensates for it, by moving the limb actuators so the barrel drifts less off-centre as the gun fires. Again the Black Carapace increases that efficiency, so it still makes sense for Novitiates to train with Autoguns so they can learn to manually compensate for recoil.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
Every example of an autogun I can think of, at least on a model, looks like it’s been bolted together by an ork and are treated as the weapon of the ramshackle force.

I’m not denying the obvious advantages of a laser rifle over a weapon that fire bullets but you would have thought that in the 41st millennium they could make something that looks at least as smart as an ak47 where as your average cultist looks like they are armed with a car exhaust.

Whenever I am troubled by questions such as these I turn to the 2nd Ed Wargear book:

"The autogun is comparable to a twentieth-century automatic rifle both in appearance and operation, though the introduction of caseless ammunition and plasteel components has increased the rate of fire and durability."

So don't lose sleep - the 40K autoguns can be as quasi-futuristic as your fanfiction wants them to be.

Well this is what I’ve always had in my head and you’d have thought that many worlds might not be able to make lasguns but most world could nock out hordes of hi end rifles, LMGs etc

I've always known it to be that Lasguns are the preferred weapon over autoguns due to logistics.

Instead of shipping a trillion magazines of hard ammunition a few times a day for your rank and file, you can ship a trillion rechargeable Lasgun magazines a few times a week.

So you're shipping less weight, less often and can still keep your grunts stocked up on ammo.

Also there's minimal moving parts, if any, in a Lasgun, and the fewer moving parts there are the less likely it is to outright break or fail in the field. You only really have to keep a Lasgun clean rather than clean, and oiled, and everything else that goes on with modern firearms care.

It's also far easier to train a soldier to use a gun that has minimal recoil, isn't affected by wind or gravity, and only needs cleaning.

Autoguns are very variable, and we have a variety with model support. Some look better quality than others.

This is an Orlock autogun, and appears to be a high-end well made model with a folding stock (on the left of the image, the other two are carrying combat shotguns):


The weapon is clearly durable enough to cope well with the rigours of gang life.

There is the commonest design, variants on the following:


Can be very battered and still functional:


But can also be produced in much higher quality versions. Below we have an Escher variant, and three Sororitas novitiates on the bottom half of the second image carrying fine versions of this model:


Autoguns have additionally been modified to accept additional equipment:


So they are variable and available in several versions and levels of quality. GW has produced more autogun models than shown here, but these are most of the plastic ones.

Edit:

Forgot the Delaque autogun, another high-end model with integrated suppressor:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


I’m also wondering if forcibly suppressing recoil would damage your gun? I mean, it’s an inherent part of the gun firing mechanism. And the force generated? Well, it’s gotta go somewhere. If Power Armour forced the Bolter to be steady, surely that’s just gonna damage the gun’s internals.

Recoil is not going to damage a properly made weapon, forcibly controlled or not.

If power armor is holding a gun down, the recoil does go into the power armor. Its just insufficient to move the armor and/or it gets absorbed by the servos.

That’s pretty much in line with the Rogue Trader description, although I think there is an implication of a much higher rate of fire and a smaller calibre, like a P90 or something



@Gert - fair point on the dogma side of things. The Imperium loves it some arbitrary “just because” rules


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@MDG guns need to be able to take the recoil forces because especially for that first shot, almost all of the momentum imparted into the round gets dumped into the gun before the whole system can start moving.

You occasionally get weapons that don’t do so well with this though

https://what-if.xkcd.com/21/

 Flinty wrote:

You occasionally get weapons that don’t do so well with this though

https://what-if.xkcd.com/21/

This has got to be the orkiest real world science I’ve ever seen.

Oh, there is more…

https://what-if.xkcd.com/18/

I can highly recommend reading all of them… and his How To book, and his explanation drawing book using only the ten hundred most common questions words.

If we boil it right down, it’s important to keep the militaristic mindset to the fore.

Autoguns aren’t junk as such. They are robust and easily manufactured en masse, and don’t require particularly advanced tools, even for the setting.

Lasguns however are simply a militaries wet dream of a standard issue weapon. Robust, simple to maintain, waterproof, largely general elements resistant. Power packs provide plentiful rounds each, are comparatively light and importantly, self replenishing to a greater or lesser degree depending on exact combat environs. There’s also a pretty decent level of standardisation across the various patterns when it comes to which power packs a given model uses. Not complete standardisation of course.

Compare that to the Autogun? Moving parts, bulkier ammo which is heavy, and a given magazine comes nowhere close to the number of shots a single Lasgun power pack can offer. There’s also some risk of wildly different calibres, especially for non-commercial creations.

Maintenance? Going by the Imperial Infantryman’s uplifting primer, unscrew old barrel, screw in new barrel, and you’re good to go. Autogun? All the steps of modern rifles, which also requires the bits and bobs to be in plentiful supply when you’re taking forces there size of the Astra Militarum.

Hence the Lasgun wins out in most, if not all scenarios. Sure we can make a reasonable argument an Autogun might achieve a higher rate of automatic fire - but you’d inherently need to reload more often compared to a Lasgun, whether or not the Lasgun has its own burst/automatic settings (not all models do).

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
If we boil it right down, it’s important to keep the militaristic mindset to the fore.

Autoguns aren’t junk as such. They are robust and easily manufactured en masse, and don’t require particularly advanced tools, even for the setting.

Lasguns however are simply a militaries wet dream of a standard issue weapon. Robust, simple to maintain, waterproof, largely general elements resistant. Power packs provide plentiful rounds each, are comparatively light and importantly, self replenishing to a greater or lesser degree depending on exact combat environs. There’s also a pretty decent level of standardisation across the various patterns when it comes to which power packs a given model uses. Not complete standardisation of course.

Compare that to the Autogun? Moving parts, bulkier ammo which is heavy, and a given magazine comes nowhere close to the number of shots a single Lasgun power pack can offer. There’s also some risk of wildly different calibres, especially for non-commercial creations.

Maintenance? Going by the Imperial Infantryman’s uplifting primer, unscrew old barrel, screw in new barrel, and you’re good to go. Autogun? All the steps of modern rifles, which also requires the bits and bobs to be in plentiful supply when you’re taking forces there size of the Astra Militarum.

Hence the Lasgun wins out in most, if not all scenarios. Sure we can make a reasonable argument an Autogun might achieve a higher rate of automatic fire - but you’d inherently need to reload more often compared to a Lasgun, whether or not the Lasgun has its own burst/automatic settings (not all models do).

You forgot solar powered

But don’t all of those cons of the autoguns apply to bolsters?

Bolters, sure. But those are statement weapons. Big, brutal, messy. Nasty enough the percentage of people you need to kill to break various foes is drastically reduced.

So for forces of more limited numbers? Bolters make sense.

Yeah, bolters are for breaking open a target with a single shot and making sure everyone around them knows about it.

It's a shock and awe type weapon for a shock and awe type soldier.

Of course, while a lasgun is very simple to maintain it does still require access to the main Imperial logistics network. You're going to need a Tech Priest to fix it if something gets really broken. But an Autogun can most likely be fully repaired by a non-tech priest as its crude nature is a boon because its easier for the uneducated to grasp how it works.

Which is one of the reasons why Autoguns are often preferred by PDF units. Overall, cheaper to acquire and your local scrubs can actually understand how they work and how to perform major repairs and maintenance. You don't need to pay some tech bois to hang around for lasguns.

I do and don’t agree on that one.

Yes Lasguns can require outside supply. Whilst easily made within the wider Imperium, they still require a technological base higher than auto weapons.

But I’m not persuaded a Tech Priest would overly worry about repairing a Lasgun, as supply is so plentiful by design, you’d just issue a new one (or, potentially execute the Guardsman for wasting resources). This will vary regiment to regiment though. I’m pretty sure the Vostroyan weapons are heirlooms carefully maintained, for instance.

Autoguns are Second Best. By no means inferior as such, as they’ll still kill what you need killing. But something you adopt for your forces where Lasguns just aren’t available.

In terms of repairing an Autogun? On an industrialised world yes you can probably get spares and repairs quite easily. The repair might not last terribly long, but I’m guessing that’s mostly a problem for Future You, as you first need to survive the engagement before worrying whether your bodge job needs a proper fix.

As for PDFs, it’s also quite possibly cheaper to make your own Autoguns rather than import Lasguns. Again depending entirely upon a given world’s technological base, as I’m still of a mind that if you can mass manufacture Lasguns (note the word mass!) you’d go for those.

It also depends on the auto gun. I mean you can make a Sten SMG in a Bicycle shop. Probably not so much with the new SIG Spear.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


Autoguns are Second Best. By no means inferior as such, as they’ll still kill what you need killing. But something you adopt for your forces where Lasguns just aren’t available.

I dunno about 'second best'. I think its fairer to say lasguns have higher 'status' and greater prestige than autoguns.

Logistically lasguns are far superior but imo the physical damage from an autoguns slug will probably be greater than a lasgun which cautorizes its own wound I believe (its thermal damage, more or less, right?). Modern hollowpoints for example are disgusting. I could imagine an rpg/campaign would give lower recovery rates to autogun wounds than lasgun wounds but that is veering into complete hypothesis.

Deadnight wrote:

a lasgun which cautorizes its own wound I believe (its thermal damage, more or less, right?)

Realistically, the lasgun would make the target's flesh violently explode very much like a hollow point. But in 40k it does (canonically) cauterize the wound, so I guess your point still stands.

The main benefit of a laser gun over an autogun is that laser weapons are 100 accurate, they only miss your target if you don’t point it at the target. Also the projectile travels at the speed of light, much faster than a bullet. And there projectiles distance isn’t affected by gravity which can be variable across different worlds.

 AtoMaki wrote:

Deadnight wrote:

a lasgun which cautorizes its own wound I believe (its thermal damage, more or less, right?)

Realistically, the lasgun would make the target's flesh violently explode very much like a hollow point. But in 40k it does (canonically) cauterize the wound, so I guess your point still stands.

Agreed... but gw and physics... ^shrug^

Depends on the books, some folks have lost limbs to lasgun shots because the impact zone was blown apart

Deadnight wrote:
Agreed... but gw and physics... ^shrug^

Well, some (/a lot of) narrative license should be required, especially for a setting like 40k where applying realism would quickly turn things upside-down.

 Gert wrote:
An Autogun would have more in common with a Bolter than a Lasgun. Also, again, much cheaper to source than a Lasgun. Any planet can make an Autogun, not so much a Lasgun.

The advantage of the lasgun of course is once you build one even simple economies can maintain them for centuries. Plus the logistics savings of guns that never need ammo.

Yes, of course, the issue there being "Once you build them". For planets with large industrial bases, it likely wouldn't be too much of an issue but even then that doesn't mean a planetary militia or even PDF is going to get the Lasguns. They will be shipped off-world for the Guard or sold to the 40k equivalent of PMCs, local nobles, or even to less than reputable sources for that sweet cash money.

 AtoMaki wrote:

Deadnight wrote:

a lasgun which cautorizes its own wound I believe (its thermal damage, more or less, right?)

Realistically, the lasgun would make the target's flesh violently explode very much like a hollow point. But in 40k it does (canonically) cauterize the wound, so I guess your point still stands.

Those two things don't sound mutually exclusive.

Hecaton wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

Deadnight wrote:

a lasgun which cautorizes its own wound I believe (its thermal damage, more or less, right?)

Realistically, the lasgun would make the target's flesh violently explode very much like a hollow point. But in 40k it does (canonically) cauterize the wound, so I guess your point still stands.

Those two things don't sound mutually exclusive.

The laser would boil your body, not burn it.

Oh, and something interesting: if lasguns were, like, super-realistic, then they would not only boil you but also give you a lethal dose of radiation so your tissue would blacken and die around the impact point. Pros: it wouldn't hurt too much due to your nerves also dying in an instant. Cons: the doc couldn't heal that wound with some bandage, to put it mildly.

 AtoMaki wrote:

The laser would boil your body, not burn it.

Either way it wouldn't be bleeding, though, right? Until it blisters and tissue starts falling off.

 AtoMaki wrote:
Oh, and something interesting: if lasguns were, like, super-realistic, then they would not only boil you but also give you a lethal dose of radiation so your tissue would blacken and die around the impact point. Pros: it wouldn't hurt too much due to your nerves also dying in an instant. Cons: the doc couldn't heal that wound with some bandage, to put it mildly.

What kind of radiation? A laser, by definition, is emitting E/M radiation in the form of light.

Hecaton wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

The laser would boil your body, not burn it.

Either way it wouldn't be bleeding, though, right?

It would boil your body into popping like a balloon. Read the linked article, it explains why.

Hecaton wrote:
What kind of radiation? A laser, by definition, is emitting E/M radiation in the form of light.

A super-realistic lasgun would be a charged particle emitter with laser coupling. And the charged particle beam would be pretty darn nasty in the radiation department.

If we go back to the precursor to Necromunda called Confrontation, there are also other interesting tidbits to explain why Las weapons are so popular.

Now for clarity this is 30 year old or so background, and hasn’t really been repeated (at least I don’t think it has?). But, as with all things 40K, that doesn’t mean it’s inaccurate.

But what sticks in my mind that not only are Lasgun ammo packs largely standardised? They can also be used to power other Las weapons.

Now a single pack might provide the same number of shots for a Lasgun or Laspistol, unless a given model has variable power output settings. But 6 could power a single Lascannon shot.

So in extremis, a squad could power a pretty hefty support weapon by sacrificing some of their spares.

However. Given modern models of Lascannon show a dedicated power pack, it might not be universal (as in dedicated power packs exist, but you can use standard Lasgun packs all the same) as it could be an Underhive adaptation.

Then there’s Hotshot Lasguns/Hellguns. At their very basic, they’re just supercharged Lasguns - as in any Lasgun, with suitable modification is a potential Hotshot/Hellgun. The main difference is purpose built ones are….purpose built, designed to channel the additional charge load without burning any thing out.

That rather begs the question of whether it’s possible to hook a Lasgun or Pistol up to whatever passes for mains electricity. I strongly suspect that would ruin the weapon fairly quickly, but in a pinch it could be a viable act - and potentially battle winning if your opponent isn’t expecting it.

Now I want to get my mitts on the Votann book, as I want to learn about HYLas weapons. The HY standing for High Yield. Are those a specific design? Perhaps a generation or twelve beyond the Imperial equivalent? Or is it something Imperial ones could do, were it not for more rigorous maintenance requirements making it impractical for the scale of Imperial deployment?

 AtoMaki wrote:

A super-realistic lasgun would be a charged particle emitter with laser coupling. And the charged particle beam would be pretty darn nasty in the radiation department.

That's more like a plasma weapon or ion weapon, though.