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Does the army percentage rules mean that big characters like Malekith wont see the light of day outside of 8000pt games?

So...$75 for the rulebook? $75 for just the plain rulebook, no collector's edition BS or any of that? Is that right?

Well it is pretty huge. Really. MASSIVE. But still, thats loads for just a book!!

Okay got one more thing to say about the book. It is waaaay to heavy. My God, it hurt my wrists just holding it open. The seriously need a mini copy.

I know there will be a lot of haters out there but the new rules seem very interesting and fun...im looking forward to playing.

Minsc wrote:Just a response to a comment last page: Fast Cav can march and shoot now. It's not a rule change.

One of those things I never noticed, I guess...

ZF-

um.... someone mentioned javelins and a range boost. Can someone confirm if they are still 8" or not. or for that matter the changes to blowpipes and skinks in general.

Pip wrote:
I didn't find the random charge range as bad as I thought I would. The game was so much fun to play, the random charges added just enough risk/reward to movement in my oppinion. Especially seeing as terrain no longer slows people down. Failed charges are hilarious. big 10 man kinght unit with a lord about 15" from my loner Alter lord declares a charge. He rolls triple 2s, which gives him a charge distance of 11" so he failed his charge and only moves 2" instead. I would love to say that was a game winning fail but there was plenty of back and forth between the luck of the dice.

I would say the randomness of the charge distance is balanced a bit by being able to pre-measure the distance. You should be able to make an informed decision on attempting the charge.

ZF-

Therion wrote:

On the musicians, yes. Free reform other than they count as moving (So no move or fire weapons).

Thank you! I can't stress how incredible this is for infantry blocks with missile weapons. A unit of 20 Crossbowmen can be in a fighting formation of 5x4 and when not threatened by combat reform to 10x2 and shoot with every model.

You're saying they can do this? Re-form and then fire? That sounds... really scary for my army walking up to them. Ugh!

Therion wrote:Does the flaming rule still exist? What does it do? Does it negate regeneration like before? Are High Elves with Dragon Armour still totally immune to flaming cannonballs?

I checked this one, it's the same as before as far as turning 1 wound into 2, or if you're rolling a dice for wounds, multiplying the result by 2. Which obviously hurts my trees as much as usual . I didn't see anything about regeneration (I don't have models with that ability, and didn't realize that it currently negates it, either!). I will check that next time.

I'm not sure about the other two questions (what regeneration and ethereal are).

Airmaniac wrote:If a unit of Saurus Warriors has Spears, how many attacks does each rank get? Spears will allow them to attack in three ranks, but do the second and third rank only get 1 attack per model? For example if I have a unit of 6x3 Saurus Warriors with Spears, do I get to make 30 attacks (first and second rank, normal attack profile, third rank, single attack regardless) or 24 attacks (first rank, normal attack profile, second and third rank, single attack regardless)?

You get 24 attacks- full attacks with the first rank, 1 "supporting attack" with the second and third ranks. Monstrous infantry (I believe that's what they call them now, referring to ranked ogre-sized units) get full "supporting attacks". So a monstrous infantry unit such as treekin, would get 3 attacks each from the second row. If they have the "horde" rule (6-wide for monstrous infantry, 10-wide for infantry) they get attacks from one additional row- and these are also full attacks for the monstrous infantry. Saurus with spears would simply get 1 attack from an additional row for having horde.

Hopefully that makes sense!

So basically, the Predatory Fighters rule the Saurus Warriors had in the previous Lizardmen Armybook is back, but is now a Core rule? Hand weapon and shield it is then!

Can the spear rank be used on the charge this time around?

ZF-

Therion wrote:

What does regeneration do now? Is it a 4+ ward save like before?


Has the ethereal special rule changed?

Cheers.

Regeneration is a 4+, but can't be used in addition to ward save. It is one or the other. Furthermore, they've specifically said you can get different regenerations. So in the future you might see "Regeneration (2+)" which would be a 2+ save.

Ethereal was listed in the special rules, but I didn't read it carefully. All it does now is you have to have magic weapons/attacks to damage?

On the flaming note. Units with flaming attacks cause fear for some units. I believe chariots is one of them but do not quite remember.

Zad Fnark wrote:Can the spear rank be used on the charge this time around?

No, it can only be used when receiving a charge (I did check this, it's under the weapons entry for spears for models on foot)

Airmaniac wrote:So basically, the Predatory Fighters rule the Saurus Warriors had in the previous Lizardmen Armybook is back, but is now a Core rule? Hand weapon and shield it is then!

Well, there will be an errata for every army book, so perhaps Predatory Fighter will give them another benefit (perhaps an additional rank, like high elves?). I'd wait for the errata before converting anything

zioN wrote:Does the army percentage rules mean that big characters like Malekith wont see the light of day outside of 8000pt games?

Lowest game point value:
Foot = ~2500
Coldone = 2520
Dragon = ~3700
Chariot- 2850

Thing to note about spears as well: If you're equipped with them on a charge, you must use them now. Even if you have Hand Weapons too and it'd be better to Parry.

Did anyone else notice how the composition reads, as far as minimum units? You have to have 3 units in addition to a hero/lord choice, but 25% of your army must be core. So in reality you could have 1 core unit that costs 25% of your army and be totally legal. Imagine horde size block of Chaos Warriors - brrrrrr scary.

I wonder how TK magic will work - how will dispel dice and power dice be generated for them, as well as since their casters don't have "levels", will they get a bonus on their casting? I'm just glad that the screaming skulls catapults will get toned down a bit (although that Str 9 under the hole will be pretty nasty if dropped on a character on a big mount).

Here's a question though for the group, as now I'll have to change up my Skaven list to accomodate the special choice restrictions. How viable are skirmishers now with the new rules of "checkerboard" formations, as well as the viability of bigger creatures in units (using Rat Ogres as an example). I'm worried my PCB units are going to be less mobile, and with an I3, will probably be going simultaneously as other folks. Compare that to a unit of 5-6 rat ogres, which can have the second rank attack (3 attacks each), at Str 5 I4. Plus stomp attack from the front rank. Mmmmm decisions decisions.

Therion wrote:

On the musicians, yes. Free reform other than they count as moving (So no move or fire weapons).

Thank you! I can't stress how incredible this is for infantry blocks with missile weapons. A unit of 20 Crossbowmen can be in a fighting formation of 5x4 and when not threatened by combat reform to 10x2 and shoot with every model.

Does the flaming rule still exist? What does it do? Does it negate regeneration like before? Are High Elves with Dragon Armour still totally immune to flaming cannonballs?

He did say they count as moving. So unless you're talking about repeater crossbows, then no, you wouldn't be able to fire on the turn you reformed.

As a side note, flaming attacks allow re-rolls (possibly on both to hit and to wound) when attacking models in buildings. A small bonus, but it's there.

On the subject of buildings, I noticed cav can assault buildings now, but can't enter them in the event they drive off the enemy. It also means riders will attack on foot- as in, without armor save benefits, or mounts attacks and the like.

RZ

Mattbranb wrote:Here's a question though for the group, as now I'll have to change up my Skaven list to accomodate the special choice restrictions. How viable are skirmishers now with the new rules of "checkerboard" formations, as well as the viability of bigger creatures in units (using Rat Ogres as an example). I'm worried my PCB units are going to be less mobile, and with an I3, will probably be going simultaneously as other folks. Compare that to a unit of 5-6 rat ogres, which can have the second rank attack (3 attacks each), at Str 5 I4. Plus stomp attack from the front rank. Mmmmm decisions decisions.

From my 2 game experience it means you have to pay a bit more attention to how they move because they have a facing and can't just charge 360 but since the charge ranges are potentially larger it is actually easier to get them to the enemy. I'm not sure on the cost per PCB but having slightly larger skirmishing units isn't a bad idea now. I did find myself constantly changing how wide I wanted them to sit. The whole having to stick with as many wide as you are when you charge was strange to deal with, allthough ultimatly I was just second guessing myself because it was so different.

TK magic, from what we could tell, is literally broken right now. As in, by the rules, it simply doesn't work at all (because the TK army book references bound spells per BRB).

Strong evidence in our minds that TK army book is coming out before year-end.

Mattbranb wrote:
I wonder how TK magic will work - how will dispel dice and power dice be generated for them, as well as since their casters don't have "levels", will they get a bonus on their casting? I'm just glad that the screaming skulls catapults will get toned down a bit (although that Str 9 under the hole will be pretty nasty if dropped on a character on a big mount).

This is something I dont understand. They say bound spells are cast like normal spells with power level=caster level... But what about bound spells like the TK ones (I think they count as bound spells anyways) which dont have a casting cost? It doesnt work...

Lowest game point value:
Foot = ~2500
Coldone = 2520
Dragon = ~3700
Chariot- 2850

So wait, is the 25% thing, EITHER Lords AND/OR Heros? (ie. in 3000pts you could have 750pts of lords) Must have misread that! >.<

Tomb King spells can't fail to cast so wouldn't they just work like they do now?

Ixquic wrote:Tomb King spells can't fail to cast so wouldn't they just work like they do now?

Unless they roll double 6's or they get a sum of 1 or 2, to my understanding (which the former is always an Irresist followed by Spell Loss, while the later is Inc. fails for that turn).

Since the TK's roll for the Power Level, however, and not to go off, it might also very well be that it's the number they buff their spell casting by. That is how bound works now, yes? You add the Bound Level to the casting? So if you rolled a 6,6 in this case, you wouldn't lose the Spell, you'd get to add your PD to it and - barring a 1, 2, or double-six result - you'd get +12 to the cast value you rolled. Would seemingly mean that rolling 1,1 for PD can only get you two incantations a turn (at best), but you could still possibly get two off at something like 18 (which would piss off a lot of defenders).

Or it could be neither of these. I don't have either book on hand, and am working off what I recall from reading in the TK book as well as people have said about the Rule Book.

As I said, from what we can tell, TK magic literally doesn't work. Since they don't have a value, they cannot be cast. That is current RaW.

I'm sure they will be errata'ed and I'm pretty sure they are the next army book.

Therion wrote:

On the musicians, yes. Free reform other than they count as moving (So no move or fire weapons).

Thank you! I can't stress how incredible this is for infantry blocks with missile weapons. A unit of 20 Crossbowmen can be in a fighting formation of 5x4 and when not threatened by combat reform to 10x2 and shoot with every model.

Crossbows are move or fire, so they won't be able to shoot the turn they reform even with a free reform.

Allright, some more stuff:

What does regeneration do now? Is it a 4+ ward save like before?

Defaults to a 4+ save, though can have other values if specified. Cannot be taken with a ward save. Flaming attacks remove regen for the rest of the (Either phase or turn...Not sure on that).

Does the flaming rule still exist? What does it do? Does it negate regeneration like before? Are High Elves with Dragon Armour still totally immune to flaming cannonballs?

Still around, better against regen. Now causes fear in certain units. I didn't see anything that would make Dragon armor vulnerable to flaming cannonballs, but I didn't look at it too far.

Has the ethereal special rule changed?

No changes from what I saw.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Airmaniac wrote:
If a unit of Saurus Warriors has Spears, how many attacks does each rank get? Spears will allow them to attack in three ranks, but do the second and third rank only get 1 attack per model? For example if I have a unit of 6x3 Saurus Warriors with Spears, do I get to make 30 attacks (first and second rank, normal attack profile, third rank, single attack regardless) or 24 attacks (first rank, normal attack profile, second and third rank, single attack regardless)?

Fight in additional rank adds to supporting attacks, so 3 ranks of spear saurus is 24 attacks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gendoikari87 wrote:um.... someone mentioned javelins and a range boost. Can someone confirm if they are still 8" or not. or for that matter the changes to blowpipes and skinks in general.

12" Range for Javs now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Zad Fnark wrote:Can the spear rank be used on the charge this time around?

ZF-

Nope. You don't get the fight in additional rank bonus when you charge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Minsc wrote:

Ixquic wrote:Tomb King spells can't fail to cast so wouldn't they just work like they do now?

Unless they roll double 6's or they get a sum of 1 or 2, to my understanding (which the former is always an Irresist followed by Spell Loss, while the later is Inc. fails for that turn).

Since the TK's roll for the Power Level, however, and not to go off, it might also very well be that it's the number they buff their spell casting by. That is how bound works now, yes? You add the Bound Level to the casting? So if you rolled a 6,6 in this case, you wouldn't lose the Spell, you'd get to add your PD to it and - barring a 1, 2, or double-six result - you'd get +12 to the cast value you rolled. Would seemingly mean that rolling 1,1 for PD can only get you two incantations a turn (at best), but you could still possibly get two off at something like 18 (which would piss off a lot of defenders).

Tomb kings are screwed. You roll for the power level of the bound spell. However, to get a bound spell off, you now have to meet the power level with dice (Your priest rolls well and gets a power level 10, you need to roll 10+ with however many power dice you want to use.) Counterintuitively, princes are the best casters in the Tomb Kings army right now. At least I do believe that Tomb Kings specify that they don't get Irresistable or Miscast...

So with saves, let me see if i have this right.

Get armor and either ward or regen?

I play HE. I'm wondering if Teclis can still ignore first miscast each turn, if so he will devastate.

However with save changes I think that his brother won't be as good, however being able to use his breath weapon in CC will be a bit more offensive.

With the extra rank rules and the dual weapons of the sea guard, I think I will roll with a block of 50 of these bad boys.

Acardia wrote:Get armor and either ward or regen?.

Yep.

Minsc wrote: That is how bound works now, yes? You add the Bound Level to the casting?

no, the bound level is the required casting value.

Pip wrote:

Minsc wrote: That is how bound works now, yes? You add the Bound Level to the casting?

no, the bound level is the required casting value.

Ah, in that case Skyth's Tomb Prince comment makes sense: You'd never want a Liche Priest beyond the minimal Hierophant requirement as it's most likely to force a 6-8 casting value whereas a Prince will only force a 3-4. Don't have the book, but I think naked Princes are cheaper to boot. Still, Prince will be better for incantations now.

Acardia wrote:With the extra rank rules and the dual weapons of the sea guard, I think I will roll with a block of 50 of these bad boys.

that doesn't make sense to me seeing as you only get 1 attack from people not in the front rank.

Sea Guard only get a single attack anyways. However, with 50 Sea Guard (in a 10 wide x 5 rank unit) get everyone to attack with ASF.

About bound spells. What about the tactic of giving a bound spell item to non-wizards? I can't remember, but I think it said something about only wizards being able to utilize PD. I suppose you COULD give a non-caster a bound spell (kinda a pretty bauble), but it'd be useless.
I do like the plethora of 5pt magic items in the book. I've lost track of the number of times I've been just a few points short on an army list.
I do think it's gonna take a while to adjust to 1 dispel scroll per army. There's a note in the magic item section that says if the item description allows, multiples of a magic item are allowed/ However none of the items in the book have that attribute.
Oh, and War Banner now 35 pts. No more skellies with it, or any other units that can have 25pt banners.

Skellies can still take a War Banner, at least until they get a new army book.