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I do think it's a worthwhile distraction technique - your enemy can't just ignore the spods, in case they get lucky and do serious shooting damage. And if he's shooting the spods then that's less dakka coming at your mobile troops.

But of course the downside is that your spods become a lot more expensive.

When i get around to building my spods, i'll definitely be magnetising a weapon attachment point on each, so that I can experiment with tactics like this.

Well, the chapterhouse spod has a convenient weapon arm...

I've modelled my first couple with the twin-linked deathspitters -- cheap, accurate, and synergise well with the ripper tentacles. I figure the way to use them is to aim to DS into positions where you can get some rear or side armour shots on tanks if possible.

hmmm i have to disagree with your thoughts on Zoanthropes
if you are up against marines/guard.
A hive guard ain't guna get through that super tough Land raider, a brood of these can-openers will munt tanks, I do agree however with their poor range. That's what spores are for ;D

I'm with Ian Sturrock with the TL deathspitters on spods. Cheaper than a venom cannon and they can be used to either shoot contents of a transport or as a last ditch attempt at getting a much needed glance or pen. I have had some success with this particular build, though I have to admit I haven't tried out the VC option.

Something I'd suggest is considering stuff like Devourer-armed Termgants in Mycetic Spores. They're going to be expensive for twenty, but you might as well the best bang for your buck. 60 S4 AP- shots are going to make a mess of any infantry they hit.

So I plan to begin testing out on Vassal a nearly all MC shooty list, and I'm curious as to how well it fares against the new Dark Eldar. Against most armies, spamming TMCs would provide Target Saturation enough to overwhelm and destroy them, but any basic DE unit with poisonn weapons can take on a TMC with fair ease. However, taking large amounts of TL Devourers and HVCs will allow decent ease of killing DE vehicles (due to open topped to cancel out lack of AP and Vencom Cannon subtraction, respectively).

Example list:
Tyrant - Wings, Old Adversary, 2 TL Devourers
2 Hive Guard
2 Hive Guard
2 Venomthropes
Tervigon - Catalyst, Cluster Spines
Tervigon - Catalyst, Cluster Spines
10 Termagants
10 Termagants
Harpy - TL Heavy Venom Cannon, Cluster Spines
Harpy - TL Heavy Venom Cannon, Cluster Spines
Carnifex - 2 TL Devourers, Adrenal Glands, Frag Spines
Carnifex - 2 TL Devourers, Adrenal Glands, Frag Spines
Carnifex - 2 TL Devourers, Adrenal Glands, Frag Spines

2 HVCs
48 S6 AP-
8 S8 AP4

Shots a turn, All the big shooties have a cover save due to Venomthropes, Venomthropes can hide behind the massive bulk of their allies and possibly be FNP'd to ensure survival.

With this setup, once in range I can see 4 Vehicles dropping a turn, the concern is getting the weapons in range before something pops out and rapid fires you causing 6-7 wounds to throw on your 3+ saves.

*matthewbland282* wrote:hmmm i have to disagree with your thoughts on Zoanthropes
if you are up against marines/guard.
A hive guard ain't guna get through that super tough Land raider, a brood of these can-openers will munt tanks, I do agree however with their poor range. That's what spores are for ;D

Each play group varies. In mine if I'm in range to zap a loyalist LR with a Zolanthrope I am also in range of a psychic hood. Even some of our IG players get them through Witch/Demon hunters. So for me zolanthropes aren't my elite choice of well, choice.

Lukus83 wrote:I'm with Ian Sturrock with the TL deathspitters on spods. Cheaper than a venom cannon and they can be used to either shoot contents of a transport or as a last ditch attempt at getting a much needed glance or pen. I have had some success with this particular build, though I have to admit I haven't tried out the VC option.

Any reason for them being TL Deathspitters? Devourers are the same cost, same range, twice the shots and higher strength.

Also - any advice against Dark Eldar? My old buddy who I used to play against all the time, who quit when I did, has decided to jump back into the hobby on the Dark Eldar bandwagon. I realize my TMCs are going to take the hurt against them, so I'm looking for ways to take down transports before they become a problem.

You can't get Twin-Linked Devourers on a Mycetic Spore.

Oh, on a spore. That's what I get for not paying attention. I saw 'twin linked deathspitter' and assumed it was about TMCs.

What an awesome, awesome thread! I've learned so much from you guys advices!

Although i haven't played around too much with the different units yet, i've had some good AND bad experiences.

@Reserves
It's a shame you can't rely much on Reserves. I really had hoped there was some potential in these, but i've too often seen it down the drain due to bad reserve rolls. Furthermore, having an army that excells in assault, it's hardly worth it - at all. Bad reserve rolls, and having your important units picked off one by one, i'd hardly ever recommend Reserve-based armies.

Last edition codex, Lictors seemed alot more solid from getting to assault in the same turn they arrive. Now, they're worthless in every single way, taking up an important Elite slot, being easily ID'ed in the open, or from Power Weapons in Melee. Not even the +1 Reserve roll seems worth it!

The main issue about having anything Deep Struck, i feel, is the lack of shooties. The Zoan @ Spod holds some potential, but as long as the rules indicates that the unit HAS to be placed as soon as the dice is rolled, they - together with everything else - seems too unrealiable!

@Ymgarls
On the other hand, i've had such such great succes with Ymgarls. I feel they're worth every penny, and i'd take them any day over any other Elite. Their psychological impact alone plays a HUGE roll in games with a decent levels of terrain, and being able to swich between S, T and A's just makes them one nasty unit. With Tervigons around, added FnP they just mangle everything - even potential against vehicles!

@Raveners
I too would like to hear more about these guys. I haven't had much luck with them from reserves (with shooters), but alone by having those nasty 4 attacks, i feel they have a good potential. Giving them shooters, though, doesn't seem too reliable. I feel they excell too much in their speed, and should be packed with ST's and Rending Claws. But like so many other of the Tyranids T4 creatures, they can be easily insta'ed.

@Psykers(?)
Quick question, though; Against armies capable of denying us our Psychic Powers, how do we properly deal with these kinds of armies/units? I've had great experience fielding the D-leaper, with a lucky It's-After-Me-roll and having the psyker within 12" of a Shadow-I.T.W. creature. But as i recall it, the Libraian for once, can use his anti-psyker powers from 24", whilst the Shadow-I.T.W. requires 12". Well, base line, and the reason for my question, is that alot (ALOT!) of these strategies here are heavily based on having psychic powers available, such as cata-FnP (or ANY of the Sw-Lords powers for that matter!). Being confronted by anti-psykers, having to rely on Deathleapers, praying for a good It's-after-me-roll, taking up an EXTREMELY important Elite-slot in the process, and needing to have the psyker within 12" seems very unreliable! But on the other hand, having about half - if not more - of your psychic powers denied all the time, could mean that your units are in for a hurting (Not to mention having our Zoan's affected by these!).

- So how do we deal with these annoying anti-psyker units?


Regards
Bill'

king88mob wrote:
I also run a Hive Commander Tyrant and have had great luck with outflanking the hormagaunts.

Yes, yes, yes! A thousand times yes! One of the absolute best uses for the Hive Commander Outflank move I've found is a monstrous brood of Hormagaunts coming on and sweeping away everything they touch.

YMMV on the last part depending on how you run them, and how many you take. I use a full 30 Adrenal/Toxin Hormagaunts for this, and they are absolutely horrifying. Very expensive though, and you have to consider that they are more or less replacing things like Genestealers/Ymgarls/Raveners, so bear that in mind when list-building. They are also quite stunning when you run them up the board from the start of the game, provied you've got a Tervigon to babysit them with Catalyst.

Just thought I would let the readers know of a new list I have used and had some really good success with. Only played once, but the theory seems to work on the table as well as in my head. Had a little PM discussion with Shep who helped me fine tune the idea (who by the way is a great source of info for competitive play in general...I suggest new and veteran players alike to read some of his threads and posts) and it worked well.

So going back a step. Since the new nids came out I wanted to run a DS list. The problem I have been encountering over and over again is that not only does it rely heavily on going second, but even when it happens, your opponent has a few ways of really mitigating the initial damage...which is really the whole point of the DS. Moving vehicles 12" and popping smoke is really tough on ymgarls, zoanthropes etc.

Then I recently had what I would call an epiphany (though others may call it common sense). The only reason my opponent could do all this was because I was running a pure reserves based last. There was nothing on the table giving my opponent full mastery of what was happening while I was waiting to show. Now what if you design a list to feature some really nasty deepstriking elements, backed up with solid ground-pounding firepower? It severely limits your opponents options. Add some hive guard and a tervigon (2 of the most powerful units in the codex which get missed in DS lists) for some early transport popping power as well as a unit of 20 infiltrating stealers (stealers were Sheps idea). This is a great setup. Your opponent wants to shoot then they have to absorb hits from the stealers in cc turn 2 (especially hard to remove if they have FnP from the tervigon). The want to run and pop smoke avoiding the barrage of fire from the hive guard then you have made them pop it before your DS stuff arrives and they aren't damaging your initial force either. It's a win-win situation. And as Shep pointed out to me stealers also stop infantry bubble wrap screens around vehicles very effectively.

So I think that's the idea behind it. The 2k list I used is below.

Tyrant
Wings
Hive commander
2x Brainleech devourers

2x hive guard
2x hive guard
2x hive guard

10 gaunts

18x dakka gaunts
spod w/ TL deathspitter

Tervigon
Catalyst

20x genestealers

Carnifex
2x TL brainleech devourers
spod w/ TL deathspitter

Carnifex
2x TL brainleech devourers
spod w/ TL deathspitter

Trygon

Now this is just a variant. There is actually a lot of room for change at 2k. The base (no trygon or dakka gaunts) take the list down to 1570pts so you can put different choices in as you see fit. I personally will keep varying the final few points, though I had a great game yesterday with this build.

So in short the few things that really seem to work well in this list:

1. DS hard hitters can cause serious damage the turn they arrive.

2. Initial deployment of tough models/large units means you aren't as reliant on turn 2.

3. The initial deployment really screws with target priority since hive guard and stealers can crack transports early on. One is fast, one has range. Finding a way to crack both before turn 2 should be very tough (FnP and cover saves are compulsory for stealers).

If anyone can see any weaknesses in this list that I may have missed let me know. I wanna run it against our local IG vet (the most competitive and successful of our group by far) asap to get a feel for how this list does under serious pressure.

Has anyone tried a mixed DS + start-on-board list that starts out with just 2+ Armour Save creatures? Hive Tyrants with HVCs + Tyrannofexes with Rupture Cannons can put some hurt on your enemy right across the board, while the Tyrant(s) ensure most of your reserves show up on time. With 2+ on everything, you render most of your opponent's guns useless till your reserves arrive.

Then I recently had what I would call an epiphany (though others may call it common sense). The only reason my opponent could do all this was because I was running a pure reserves based last. There was nothing on the table giving my opponent full mastery of what was happening while I was waiting to show.

This is a really good point and in some ways is how I played the old codex to decent effect in 5ed (outflanking instead of DS but still a very shooty core that was always deployed).

Its something Fritz of way of saim hann has espoused for awhile as well. And there's a gent in the seattle area that loves what he calls the reserve gambit that also relys on a deployable, hardy core along with flexible reserves.

Is there weaknesses? Certainly. What drops in has to be able to finsih what the other guys started, cause invariably they will be wiped or non issues rather quickly. I've also had meh results with single tervigon -- saavy opponents waste no time eliminating it (of deployed) or minimzing its effect (if it outflanks). However when I've played this type of list well -- its hard to counter. The worse part about it is slow play in tournaments -- it absolutely needs every turn to win (goes without saying but that has been an issue I have ran into occaionally).

I played against a straken/al rahem list recently with something similar to this (not as much DS pressure though to be honest and no hive commander either) and found had I deployed a bit better I could have won the game.

Has anyone tried a mixed DS + start-on-board list that starts out with just 2+ Armour Save creatures? Hive Tyrants with HVCs + Tyrannofexes with Rupture Cannons can put some hurt on your enemy right across the board, while the Tyrant(s) ensure most of your reserves show up on time. With 2+ on everything, you render most of your opponent's guns useless till your reserves arrive.

Its an idea but I still think you want some early assault pressure from a big block of stealers or gargoyles or similar. Also that 2+ is only situationally better -- there's still lotsa armies that can toss significant amounts of AP2.

Last edition codex, Lictors seemed alot more solid from getting to assault in the same turn they arrive. Now, they're worthless in every single way, taking up an important Elite slot, being easily ID'ed in the open, or from Power Weapons in Melee. Not even the +1 Reserve roll seems worth it!

I find this romanticizing of the old lictor to be quite funny. The old lictors were horrible. 80 points for 2W assault based critter that couldn't scare a SW long fang if it tried. Remember too that there assault after arrival required a dangerous terrain check, you couldn't move and that the lictor was not fleet -- so you had to rely on your oppnent to give you a spot to deploy, you didn't scatter to far and hope you got a good roll on difficult terrain. Then factor in how assaults work in 5ed compared to 4ed -- there's little chance a single 2W lictor can survive 1 round of assault against most units.

I'm not saying the current lictor is amazing either, but I much prefer the addition of fleet, a shooting attack, an extra W, ability to add two buddies and a 15 point price reduction over the dubious chance to assault out of a terrain peice you deepstruck into. If they had been fast attack choice I would rate them as competitive. Its really the slotting into elites that hurt them the most in my opinion.

The new Lictor is an incredible improvement taken on its deployment alone. Then there's the Flesh Hooks. Two of them are practically an Assault Cannon, and they provide much needed Assault Grenades. Bog a unit down in combat with a Lictor, then charge in with a mop-up crew while the Lictor bugs out using Hit and Run.

I find this romanticizing of the old lictor to be quite funny. The old lictors were horrible. 80 points for 2W assault based critter that couldn't scare a SW long fang if it tried. Remember too that there assault after arrival required a dangerous terrain check, you couldn't move and that the lictor was not fleet -- so you had to rely on your oppnent to give you a spot to deploy, you didn't scatter to far and hope you got a good roll on difficult terrain. Then factor in how assaults work in 5ed compared to 4ed -- there's little chance a single 2W lictor can survive 1 round of assault against most units.

I'm not saying the current lictor is amazing either, but I much prefer the addition of fleet, a shooting attack, an extra W, ability to add two buddies and a 15 point price reduction over the dubious chance to assault out of a terrain peice you deepstruck into. If they had been fast attack choice I would rate them as competitive. Its really the slotting into elites that hurt them the most in my opinion.

Honestly, i just don't find them breath-taking. Taken into consideration how many other more reliable Elite choices you've got as a Tyranid, i'd hardly pick them. I'd much rather fill the slots with Ymgarls and Hive Guards, which seems much more reliable.

And, YES, i might've romanticed the old one quite a bit. My apologies. Not really my point either. But frankly, it annoys me they aren't better as they are (compared to so many others). They're one of my favorite units, style-wise, and i've tried to implement them in alot of setups already, having little to no succes what so ever doing so. But still, you're the expert here, not me!


Frankly, i was more interested in hearing your takes on tactics involving enemy anti-psykers and being denied your psychic tests, hence many tactics here involving psykers

Frankly, i was more interested in hearing your takes on tactics involving enemy anti-psykers and being denied your psychic tests, hence many tactics here involving psykers

Fair enough Deathleaper is an option but only works against hoods (and note that 'its after me' doesn't have a range, its in effect as long as deathleaper is alive -- you are mixing it up with 'what was that' which affects difficult terrain tests of units within 12"). Rune priests and eldar don't key off of leadership, nor does the more rare grey knight and sister abilities.

I am personally gravitating away from units that utilize psychic tests, preferring tyranid primes or parasite over tyrants; and MC attacks + hive guard over zoathrope shooting. Then its just a matter of being able to handle not having catalyst readily available in certain matchups.

So I'm back to building my `Nids against for an escalation league at the FLGS. One of the things I'm looking at is my armless Hive Tyrant, and trying to decide if I want a normal Tyrant or a Swarmlord. The main abilities I'm keying in on for each is the normal Tyrant letting one unit of Troops (hormagaunts or devilgaunts) Outflank and giving units within 6" Preferred Enemy, vs the Swarmlord's 18" range of giving One unit Preferred Enemy and his person pwnage in melee. Now that the books been out awhile, how are people comparing the two nowadays?

I changed my Tyrant to a Swarmlord and have never regretted it.
(Thanks Janthkin)

If it is not winged, give it 4 swords, that's my view.

Given the choice - Swarmlord. He will be worth his points when fielded correctly, unless you're facing IG or the new DE...in which case he'll get shot down before getting to do anything in CC (probably).

I played swarmie vs DE this weekend and he was too slow. I'll contintue testing him for a bit since I really liked his powers.

Shrubs wrote:I played swarmie vs DE this weekend and he was too slow. I'll contintue testing him for a bit since I really liked his powers.

It's important to understand his role - he is a force-multiplier first (improved Reserves + 18" range on his Preferred Enemy; psychic powers when he gets in range), and COUNTER-assault second. He marches to the middle of the board, accompanying your Tervigons and/or Tyrannofexes, and makes elite assault units/characters a bit more wary of coming to pick on the large bugs.

I just think he's slow for how many points you spend on him. He won't get to your opponent's deployment zone by endgame, and even with him throwing out preferred enemy and such on friendly units is that really worth a 340 point unit? I mean buying a Tervigon for 170 just for pooping out Gants and FNP is rough enough, but double that... for similar effects? I think it's more psychological than anything else.

The double TL-Devourer Flyrant though I'm a big fan of. It has mobility, with Tervigons it has Durability, it has firepower, and it is still nasty in close combat.

Pvt. Jet wrote:I just think he's slow for how many points you spend on him. He won't get to your opponent's deployment zone by endgame, and even with him throwing out preferred enemy and such on friendly units is that really worth a 340 point unit? I mean buying a Tervigon for 170 just for pooping out Gants and FNP is rough enough, but double that... for similar effects? I think it's more psychological than anything else.

It really depends what else you have in your list. His job isn't to get to your enemy's deployment zone (although, barring Dawn of War, getting there shouldn't be a problem); it's to enhance Reserves rolls (which Ymgarl, outflanking 'stealers, and pod-based units really appreciate), to provide a long-range targeted buff (gargoyles REALLY benefit from Preferred Enemy, and aren't chained to a 6" bubble), and to protect the other big bugs from things like Mephiston. He's NOT the mobile threat in the list - he's there to make your mobile units better, and to keep your static units alive. If you aren't using a lot of static units, or aren't using a lot of mobile units that could use a buff, then he's not the best choice.

Janthkin wrote:

Shrubs wrote:I played swarmie vs DE this weekend and he was too slow. I'll contintue testing him for a bit since I really liked his powers.

It's important to understand his role - he is a force-multiplier first (improved Reserves + 18" range on his Preferred Enemy; psychic powers when he gets in range), and COUNTER-assault second. He marches to the middle of the board, accompanying your Tervigons and/or Tyrannofexes, and makes elite assault units/characters a bit more wary of coming to pick on the large bugs.

Thx for the perspective. The best thing he did was giving FC to the raveners when they charged the mandrakes, useful stuff. Second best was rerolling the flank of the 17 genestealers. Of course, his presence on the midfield helped as well.

Since when does the swarmlord need to reach all the way to the other side of the board?

against anything but a gunline, he should effect the game heavily by threatening everything around him, he's pretty dangerous against pretty much anything in the game and can have a ton of extra wounds attached to him, as well as the cover save.

I mean, he's pretty expensive, but he's one of the most potent units around.

Janthkin wrote:

Pvt. Jet wrote:I just think he's slow for how many points you spend on him. He won't get to your opponent's deployment zone by endgame, and even with him throwing out preferred enemy and such on friendly units is that really worth a 340 point unit? I mean buying a Tervigon for 170 just for pooping out Gants and FNP is rough enough, but double that... for similar effects? I think it's more psychological than anything else.

It really depends what else you have in your list. His job isn't to get to your enemy's deployment zone (although, barring Dawn of War, getting there shouldn't be a problem); it's to enhance Reserves rolls (which Ymgarl, outflanking 'stealers, and pod-based units really appreciate), to provide a long-range targeted buff (gargoyles REALLY benefit from Preferred Enemy, and aren't chained to a 6" bubble), and to protect the other big bugs from things like Mephiston. He's NOT the mobile threat in the list - he's there to make your mobile units better, and to keep your static units alive. If you aren't using a lot of static units, or aren't using a lot of mobile units that could use a buff, then he's not the best choice.

Well, that seems about right to me! Not being the most experienced at 40k, i might be wrong about what i'm about to say, but what seems like the best strategy against the Tyranids is taking out the MC's fast, first by range, then finishing off the last 1-2 wounds in assault, with the extra dices etc. The sad truth is that with improper lists, it may be possible to pick out the 'nids, and have them served on a golden pladder, one by one.
- If i get Janthkin right, what the Swarmlord is capable of is preventing such things from happening. Either from staying in range of possible assaulting enemy squads, or simply by psychological impact. I've even had a 10-man honor guard squad with Libraian assaulting my Swarmlord, with only 2 wounds left - 50 dices against 2 wounds! And he took a single wound - that's a single would, ladies and gentlemen!

Having such a fellow backing up your MC's sounds like a hell of a tactic to me, and also having all the nifty bonuses sure makes him worth every penny. If they don't know his worth in CC, they're gonna learn - and if they do, they'll most likely think twice about getting too close!

Billinator wrote:Well, that seems about right to me! Not being the most experienced at 40k, i might be wrong about what i'm about to say, but what seems like the best strategy against the Tyranids is taking out the MC's fast, first by range, then finishing off the last 1-2 wounds in assault, with the extra dices etc. The sad truth is that with improper lists, it may be possible to pick out the 'nids, and have them served on a golden pladder, one by one.

That's the best part about the new Tyranid list - it's loaded with threat vectors. You want to kill the MCs, as they are often a significant part of the strategy, but you also have to worry about that giant infiltrating 'stealer squad which WILL assault you on turn 2, plus that swarm of poisonous gargoyles who'll hit you on turn 2, plus the outflanking 'stealer squad that could show up on either side starting on turn 2, plus the Ymgarl who are probably sleeping someplace inconvenient and might wake up on turn 2, plus the Zoanthropes falling from the sky on turn 2....

What this codex got best is the feel of a Tyranid attack - real threats coming from almost every direction, with the potential of landing on you simultaneously. Good luck with your target priority decisions.