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2010/12/08 10:17:44
Subject: The continuing story of Julian Assange...Wikileaks.
There is a difference in that the various news outlets have been doing. They did not publish the information themselves. What they're doing is just reporting on the news, so they're no more guilty of espionage than an average citizen who read it.
The law doesn't say that reading classified information is a crime. Making it available is.
"If everything on Earth were rational, nothing would ever happen."
~Fyodor Dostoevsky
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
~Hanlon's Razor
Find it mildly amusing that Assange is viewed as "the culprit" for this whole thing when he has employee's on the Wikileaks payroll that are likely the ones who actually posted the information to whatever server farm was storing Wikileaks information. Sort of the same deal as all the Enron exec's who screamed "we just work here"....only Assange appears to be willing to bear the full brunt of his actions. Whatever else I may feel about the guy, at least he has the balls to give the US government a big fat finger.
ChrisWWII wrote:There is a difference in that the various news outlets have been doing. They did not publish the information themselves. What they're doing is just reporting on the news, so they're no more guilty of espionage than an average citizen who read it.
The law doesn't say that reading classified information is a crime. Making it available is.
Frazzled wrote:Put him in fed prison (not Club Fed - real prison) with the general population.
On a charge of what? He's broken no laws. Embarrassing the US is not a crime.
The really disappointing part about this whole affair, if you ask me (and no one did) is how quickly the media has jumped whole hog onto all these extralegal remedies for the wikileaks problem. The United States being minorly embarrassed is not illegal, and not a problem. A document being leaked that we consider nuclear power plants to be sensitive sites is not a problem. The fact we know that the Afghani President's brother is more overtly gangster then politician then we allow in polite society is also not a problem.
The calls for the CIA to garrot him in a hotel room as a problem. The calls for him to be disappeared are a problem. The calls for him to be declared an enemy combatant and sent to a lawless gulag are a problem. The horrible mindset that our constitution, which we revere as a alleged nation of law as the best way to run a fair and free society... until we have a won't someone rid me of this meddlesome priest moment - at which point we can sidestep it as a quaint relic of no import - that's a problem.
This.
Assange is a form of journalist, he got a juicy story, and 'printed' it. Unless you get a censorship order on him before he 'publishes' he gets away with it. Assange is in a way in a similar position to the guys who found out what Nixon was up to, admittedly they found out themselves, and didnt just run a website that copy/pasta stolen data. Bernstein and Woodward undoubtably damaged the US with what they uncovered, but that was ok.
The person they should be after is whoever gave him the material. That is your leak, that is your spy or 'traitor'. The US intelligence community should be embarassed, this is a LOT of info coming out, info that should have secured. After they found out who did it, they can get off their complacent butts and make sure the data is safely filed away next time.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
2010/12/08 10:34:22
Subject: Re:The continuing story of Julian Assange...Wikileaks.
US Code, Title 18, Chapter 37, § 798 wrote: Whoever knowingly and willfully communicates, furnishes, transmits, or otherwise makes available to an unauthorized person, or publishes, or uses in any manner prejudicial to the safety or interest of the United States or for the benefit of any foreign government to the detriment of the United States any classified information--...Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.
That's the law he broke. He can be prosecuted for this in the same way that the US can want to extradite captured drug lords to the United States for prosecution, and we can charge captured terrorists and terrorist masterminds for their crimes. To me those trials serve as a legal prcedent for a prosecution of Julian Assange under the espionage act.
Edit: I agree with your Orlanth, he isn't the ONLY one guilty in this leak, and we need to find the person who performed the leak in the first place. However, he did violate the law as above. The diffference between this and the Watergate case is that in the Watergate case, this information was CLASSIFIED, and under the law quoted above is guilty and subject to the sentence. Provided, of course, he can be extradited to the US in the first place. The crime with Watergate was the President's involvement in the cover up for the break in to the Democratic National HQ, instead of the theft of classified information.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/12/08 10:40:09
"If everything on Earth were rational, nothing would ever happen."
~Fyodor Dostoevsky
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
~Hanlon's Razor
Australia (Recently ravaged by the Hive Fleet Ginger Overlord)
ChrisWWII wrote:
US Code, Title 18, Chapter 37, § 798 wrote: Whoever knowingly and willfully communicates, furnishes, transmits, or otherwise makes available to an unauthorized person, or publishes, or uses in any manner prejudicial to the safety or interest of the United States or for the benefit of any foreign government to the detriment of the United States any classified information--...Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.
That's the law he broke. He can be prosecuted for this in the same way that the US can want to extradite captured drug lords to the United States for prosecution, and we can charge captured terrorists and terrorist masterminds for their crimes. To me those trials serve as a legal prcedent for a prosecution of Julian Assange under the espionage act.
Did he break it though? As far as I know he hasn't published anything like US military deployments or really, really important codes.
Smacks wrote:
After the game, pack up all your miniatures, then slap the guy next to you on the ass and say.
"Good game guys, now lets hit the showers"
2010/12/08 10:41:03
Subject: The continuing story of Julian Assange...Wikileaks.
It doesn't matter that he didn't publish US military deplyments or codes. The law says that the publishing of ANY classified information is a violation of the law in question. Even so, the publishing of that US agreement to defend the Baltic states, along witht the plans as to how such a defence would take place could qualify as publishing military deployment.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/12/08 10:45:10
"If everything on Earth were rational, nothing would ever happen."
~Fyodor Dostoevsky
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
~Hanlon's Razor
If an American had gone about throwing out lists of things the Australian government considers vital to its interest and security, or publishing information that could lead to increased tensions between the Australia and a state she'd been trying to reduce tensions with, wouldn't you want them extradited to Australia to face their crimes?
"If everything on Earth were rational, nothing would ever happen."
~Fyodor Dostoevsky
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
~Hanlon's Razor
ChrisWWII wrote:There is a difference in that the various news outlets have been doing. They did not publish the information themselves. What they're doing is just reporting on the news, so they're no more guilty of espionage than an average citizen who read it.
The law doesn't say that reading classified information is a crime. Making it available is.
Whoever gave Wikileaks the information published it.
Australia (Recently ravaged by the Hive Fleet Ginger Overlord)
US Code, Title 18, Chapter 37, § 798 wrote: Whoever knowingly and willfully communicates, furnishes, transmits, or otherwise makes available to an unauthorized person, or publishes, or uses in any manner prejudicial to the safety or interest of the United States or for the benefit of any foreign government to the detriment of the United States any classified information--...Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.
ChrisWWII wrote:It doesn't matter that he didn't publish US military deplyments or codes. The law says that the publishing of ANY classified information is a violation of the law in question. Even so, the publishing of that US agreement to defend the Baltic states, along witht the plans as to how such a defence would take place could qualify as publishing military deployment.
No it doesn't. It says any classified information that could threaten the safety or interest of the United States. If there was a piece of classification that stated that Dick Cheney's left testicle was slightly larger than usual, I wouldn't get in trouble for publishing it. That's becuase public knowledge of Dick Cheney's left testicle does not threaten US safety or interests...at least I don't think it does.
ChrisWWII wrote:If an American had gone about throwing out lists of things the Australian government considers vital to its interest and security, or publishing information that could lead to increased tensions between the Australia and a state she'd been trying to reduce tensions with, wouldn't you want them extradited to Australia to face their crimes?
I think a lot of our politicians would have their mouths full sucking up to some of your lot.
Jokes aside, no (Not being an Aus citizen). And good fething luck to anyone that tried.
Smacks wrote:
After the game, pack up all your miniatures, then slap the guy next to you on the ass and say.
"Good game guys, now lets hit the showers"
2010/12/08 11:21:06
Subject: The continuing story of Julian Assange...Wikileaks.
ChrisWWII wrote:If an American had gone about throwing out lists of things the Australian government considers vital to its interest and security, or publishing information that could lead to increased tensions between the Australia and a state she'd been trying to reduce tensions with, wouldn't you want them extradited to Australia to face their crimes?
wikileaks is releasing things about australia. our foreign minister/ ex PM has had some very aggro things to say about china.
Honestly id rather read about what my allied governments are up to now. than wait 40 years for FOI.
Freedom of Information Act.
We're finding out things from the 70s atm. Wikileaks is just advancing the process.
Otherwise id have to wait till 2040 to find out that Rudd is a control freak.
Freedom of Information I'm guessing. But yes, transparency is good. I'm all for transparency. I just think there is also a need, and right to secrecy.
Certain things need to be classified, and kept under wraps. A list of things that the US considers vital to its national interest, and would severely harm the US if attacked? THAT should be kepy under wraps. My bone of contention with WikiLeaks isn't that they're for transparency. My problem is that they're far too nonchalant about leaking information, and that as far as their concerned, no government has a right to any secrets, and they don't care who or what gets in their way.
I have a feeling that part of the reason they're so nonchalant is that they know they're not going to have to deal with the consequences of their activities, unlike the governments.
Edit: Is Rudd that Minister in Australia who was trying to put up a giant firewall around the entire country, and is basically Jack Thompson down under?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/12/08 11:28:10
"If everything on Earth were rational, nothing would ever happen."
~Fyodor Dostoevsky
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
~Hanlon's Razor
Australia (Recently ravaged by the Hive Fleet Ginger Overlord)
ChaosGalvatron wrote:Freedom of Information Act.
We're finding out things from the 70s atm. Wikileaks is just advancing the process.
Otherwise id have to wait till 2040 to find out that Rudd is a control freak.
Gotcha. Wait, you didn't know how much Rudd was trying to single handedly run things? I wonder if they've released his secret identity yet...
Smacks wrote:
After the game, pack up all your miniatures, then slap the guy next to you on the ass and say.
"Good game guys, now lets hit the showers"
2010/12/08 11:31:39
Subject: Re:The continuing story of Julian Assange...Wikileaks.
Has anything really important been revealed? i mean is the location of osama bin laden somewhere in the wikileaks database? A lot of the stuff so far is what we already knew. Putin is in charge of a gangster country, china gets really pissed off about taiwan, the UK has lost its testicles, Germany has recloned hitler.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Please dont put up the video of rudd picking his ear and eating the wax
At least for the US a few important things have gotten released:
1) A document in which US Embassies around the world reported back to the Pentagon with a list of sites that they consider vital to the security and well being of the United States.
2) A document in which the US pledged to defend the Baltic States as if they were part of NATO, complete with military plans for how such a defense would be accomplished.
ChrisWWII wrote:At least for the US a few important things have gotten released:
1) A document in which US Embassies around the world reported back to the Pentagon with a list of sites that they consider vital to the security and well being of the United States.
This one doesn't seem to be a problem, seeing as there is a lack of deployments and other vital information.
2) A document in which the US pledged to defend the Baltic States as if they were part of NATO, complete with military plans for how such a defense would be accomplished.
This one there is a definitely a problem, especially if the military plans bit is true. Of course, is there really threat of the Baltic states being invaded?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/12/08 11:48:27
Smacks wrote:
After the game, pack up all your miniatures, then slap the guy next to you on the ass and say.
"Good game guys, now lets hit the showers"
2010/12/08 11:48:58
Subject: The continuing story of Julian Assange...Wikileaks.
ChrisWWII wrote:At least for the US a few important things have gotten released:
1) A document in which US Embassies around the world reported back to the Pentagon with a list of sites that they consider vital to the security and well being of the United States.
2) A document in which the US pledged to defend the Baltic States as if they were part of NATO, complete with military plans for how such a defense would be accomplished.
THat's some of the actually important information that's been leaked.
gak. not a whole bunch of places people already knew about. and who could have imagined the US would pledge to defend the baltic states?
Really has wikileaks actually released anything new? can they tell us where area 51 is?
1) For me the problem is that this information could easily evolve into a threat....I mean most of the things could be just common sense, but it feels almost like a "HI! Here are the things to blow up if you want to hurt the US!" style list.
2) Well, no. But the Baltic States is Moscow's backyard, and the first thing you learn about Russian foreign policy is that Russia is one of the most claustrophobic countries on the planet. Knowing that the United States is going to be defending states so close to them? That could easily lead to increased tensions betwen the US and Russia.
Edit: Area 51 is located at 37°14′06″N 115°48′40″W. That information has always been available.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/12/08 11:53:05
"If everything on Earth were rational, nothing would ever happen."
~Fyodor Dostoevsky
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
~Hanlon's Razor
Australia (Recently ravaged by the Hive Fleet Ginger Overlord)
ChrisWWII wrote:1) For me the problem is that this information could easily evolve into a threat....I mean most of the things could be just common sense, but it feels almost like a "HI! Here are the things to blow up if you want to hurt the US!" style list.
How vital were these locations...wait, were these in America or overseas?
2) Well, no. But the Baltic States is Moscow's backyard, and the first thing you learn about Russian foreign policy is that Russia is one of the most claustrophobic countries on the planet. Knowing that the United States is going to be defending states so close to them? That could easily lead to increased tensions betwen the US and Russia.
I thought the US and Russia were positively cosy at the moment?
Edit: Area 51 is located at 37°14′06″N 115°48′40″W. That information has always been available.
ARREST HIM!!!
Smacks wrote:
After the game, pack up all your miniatures, then slap the guy next to you on the ass and say.
"Good game guys, now lets hit the showers"
2010/12/08 12:06:22
Subject: The continuing story of Julian Assange...Wikileaks.
ChrisWWII wrote:Read the law I quoted earlier. He is guilty of publishing classified information, and that makes him as much of a criminal as the man who stole the information in the first place.
That's debatable. Simply being a part of an organization that commits espionage does not also make that person guilty of espionage. No matter how deeply engaged your public persona may be with said organization.
ChrisWWII wrote:
And...given that he's got a whole website dedicated to spreading out leaked infromation?
He does? I know he created the website, I don't know if he actually owns it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ChrisWWII wrote:There is a difference in that the various news outlets have been doing. They did not publish the information themselves. What they're doing is just reporting on the news, so they're no more guilty of espionage than an average citizen who read it.
That's transmitting classified information to people that are not authorized to view it. By the letter of the law they have committed espionage.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/12/08 12:15:02
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
2010/12/08 14:06:06
Subject: Re:The continuing story of Julian Assange...Wikileaks.
EF: Well, they were all over the world. I'm not sure how vital they were, but the embassies were asked to furnish information regarding what they considered as installations and resources vital to US interests within their area of jurisdiction, so I'm guessing they're pretty important overall.
Dogma wrote:That's debatable. Simply being a part of an organization that commits espionage does not also make that person guilty of espionage. No matter how deeply engaged your public persona may be with said organization.
Iirc, Assage is the editor in chief of WikiLeaks, and more importantly, according to statements from WikiLeaks has the final say as to whether or not a document is published. ( Source ) To me, this justifies him for an espionage charge.
He does? I know he created the website, I don't know if he actually owns it.
He did create it, and apparently remains deeply involved in its functinons. (See above source)
That's transmitting classified information to people that are not authorized to view it. By the letter of the law they have committed espionage.
I would contest that, in that they are not leaking the reports, but are instead merely reporting on the existence of the leak. There is a major difference between saying that 'such a such file' has been leaked, but not showing the file as with the DoD report on locations vital to US interests, and actually publishing the classified document itself for public consumption.
"If everything on Earth were rational, nothing would ever happen."
~Fyodor Dostoevsky
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
~Hanlon's Razor
ChrisWWII wrote:If he's succesfully extradited to the United States like the US government wants him to, then he will be charged as such under US code, US citizen or not. The question is whether or not he'll be extradited for trial in the US, not whether or not he can be tried using US law.
Seriously, his leak was US diplomatic communiques...not global ones. Charging Julian Assange with a violation of the Espionage Act of 1917 is not an international issue. It's a US issue, and we should prosecute him as such. In al honesty, the Swedes will be prosecuting him for rape in their justice system....why should the United States have to bend over backwards to prosecute him for espionage in an international system?
You forget he leaked a buttload of military secrets first that put our informants in harms way.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
707th Lubyan Aquila Banner Motor Rifle Regiment (6000 pts)
Battlefleet Tomania (2500 pts)
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