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Emperors Faithful wrote:Just to point out people, we are talking about the Imperial Guard here. Although often used in support, the Imperial Navy is completely seperate.
The same way the US Air Force is separate from the US Army, so if we remove the Imperial Navy, we're also gonna remove the USAAF.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Which can only be used on naval assets at the moment. All the Guard would need to do is have the navy lance strike said naval assets. It's not like they could do anything to the Imperial Navy in return, what are they gonna launch missiles at us which can easily be intercepted and probably wouldn't penetrate void shields anyway?
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
im2randomghgh wrote:And also, odd as it may sound, modern body armour is more advanced than IG flak armour, probably on par with carapace armour, if not better.
No it's not. Dragonskin is notoriously unreliable, expensive, and temperature-dependent, that's why it hasn't been adopted. Get it hot, get it dirty, get it wet, and it'll become weaker than normal body armor-- it does not meet the army's standards for soldier armor.
And it can't block heavy machinegun fire like flak armor can. It certainly doesn't require an autocannon to penetrate it. And it's FETHING HEAVY, weighing about two or three times as much as an entire suit of flak armor for merely the dragonskin vest alone. It weighs more than a full SUIT of stormtrooper carapace-- everything you see on kasrkin, stormtroopers, and inquisitorial stormtroopers-- without providing as good of protection.
Stop grabbing movies off of FutureWeapons. They don't give the complete story, they're just advertising.
This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2011/05/07 01:36:31
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Melissia wrote:Which can only be used on naval assets at the moment. All the Guard would need to do is have the navy lance strike said naval assets. It's not like they could do anything to the Imperial Navy in return, what are they gonna launch missiles at us which can easily be intercepted and probably wouldn't penetrate void shields anyway?
A nuclear torpedo is a nuclear torpedo.
It would be just as hard to shoot down the modern nukes (which would penetrate voids) as it would be to shoot down future missiles, which they seem to have a hard time doing. Plus the US has 25,000 nuclear missiles...
Also, the railgun was unrelated. Just impressive. The IoM failed to master that technology, and yet not us?
im2randomghgh wrote:It would be just as hard to shoot down the modern nukes (which would penetrate voids)
Eeexcept taht they travel far slower.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
im2randomghgh wrote:It would be just as hard to shoot down the modern nukes (which would penetrate voids)
Eeexcept taht they travel far slower.
Except that ships fire a few hundred at a time, we can fire something in the area of 50,000, and that's just nukes. If that fails, we'll toss Hubble at them, and then *sniff* our T.V. satellites *sniff*
Also, the railgun was unrelated. Just impressive. The IoM failed to master that technology, and yet not us?
The Imperium has railguns. Part of the weapons batteries on Imperial warships are railguns among other weapons.
Except that ships fire a few hundred at a time, we can fire something in the area of 50,000, and that's just nukes. If that fails, we'll toss Hubble at them, and then *sniff* our T.V. satellites *sniff*
Now you're being silly.
1) The only Navy ship that could launch 'hundreds' of nukes at a time are the boomers, and let's not forget that the ASAT missiles carried by smaller ships are probably going to be nothing more than an annoyance to the Imperial Navy.
2)The Imperial Navy can easily intercept missiles like that, they intercept torpedoes just fine, and torpedoes are much faster, and probably much more powerful than any modern nuke. Let's also remember that number of warheads means nothing compared to warhead power, and even though we have 50,000 nukes let's not forget that...
a) Only a few of them are mounted on ICBMs that can even be aimed at high orbit. The US has 450 ICBMs. You can MIRV them in an emergency, but that doesn't do too much, hell how do we weven know how to accurately target something in space with a weapon not designed to do that?
b) Nukes are not magic, the standard US strategic nuclear warhead (the W87) has a yield of....475 kilotons. Yes, that's enough to take out a major base or something, but it's probably no worse than the crap an Imperial Navy ship goes through in a standard combat mission. We've got about 2,200 strategic warheads that can deliver 475 kilotons. All the others are much smaller tactical weapons that average around the tens of kilotons. If I were an Earth leader, I'd save my nukes for tactical employment agains the IG, maybe long range strategic strikes on their landing zones. I wouldn't waster them shooting into space.
Considering those two facts it's highly unlikely that nuclear missiles would be able to drive away an Imperial Fleet in orbit. Satellites are even more unlikely, and will likely be among the first things blasted when the Imperial Navy makes orbits.
In fact, let's talk about this for a minute. Destroying the earth's satellite network will play merry hell with any of our communications and anything else that go through satellites. Say goodbye to GPS guidance, instantaneous long range communication from anywhere and a bunch of other smaller things like weather prediction orbital reconaissance, etc. We have NOTHING to respond to that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/05/07 02:16:03
"If everything on Earth were rational, nothing would ever happen."
~Fyodor Dostoevsky
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
~Hanlon's Razor
I think the nova cannon (the navy one, not the leman russ one) is a railgun which launches a charge the size of a city.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Australia (Recently ravaged by the Hive Fleet Ginger Overlord)
Melissia wrote:
Emperors Faithful wrote:Just to point out people, we are talking about the Imperial Guard here. Although often used in support, the Imperial Navy is completely seperate.
The same way the US Air Force is separate from the US Army, so if we remove the Imperial Navy, we're also gonna remove the USAAF.
Not so. Imperial Guard regiments are often completely removed from any Naval (space) assets, having to rely solely on more land based aircraft (even though these aircrafts can often achieve limited space-flight as well). Naval assets are can by no means be reliably called upon, which is why Artillery is always preffered.
In contrast, when was the last time the US Army operated independantly from the it's Airforce?
Smacks wrote:
After the game, pack up all your miniatures, then slap the guy next to you on the ass and say.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Just to point out people, we are talking about the Imperial Guard here. Although often used in support, the Imperial Navy is completely seperate.
The same way the US Air Force is separate from the US Army, so if we remove the Imperial Navy, we're also gonna remove the USAAF.
Not so. Imperial Guard regiments are often completely removed from any Naval (space) assets, having to rely solely on more land based aircraft (even though these aircrafts can often achieve limited space-flight as well). Naval assets are can by no means be reliably called upon, which is why Artillery is always preffered.
In contrast, when was the last time the US Army operated independantly from the it's Airforce?
You have to be careful here because there is such a thing as the air cavalry, and the Army does maintain a small amount of aircraft namely helicopters. Similar to the Navy which maintains F-18 Super Hornets and previously maintained F-14 Tomcats. The Air Force has the F-16 Eagle and F-22 Raptor along with the A-10 Warthog.
The Imperium lacks the tactical flexibility of modern western fire teams/squads. They also are less heavily armed than a standard US Army/Marine squad. Any US squad will be fielding 3 249 SMGs and 3 M203 Grenade Launchers.
The standard Guardsman probably has more combat experience than a typical Marine/Solder, but I doubt that their training would be on par with them. The fluff for Stormtroopers isn't particularly impressive, they don't hold a candle up to prowess of Delta Force/SAS/Navy Seals.
It's difficult to compare the tactics of the two forces. The IG fights on a much larger scale. They fight total wars. The last major war for any Western nation was Vietnam. Modern western militaries are more experienced in small scale operations.
100 Guardsman vs 100 Soldiers/Marines? It's a toss up.
Stormtroopers vs elite Special Forces units? Modern Special Forces hands down.
IG vs any modern military in a all out war? Get ready to start praising the God Emperor.
Amaya wrote:The Imperium lacks the tactical flexibility of modern western fire teams/squads. They also are less heavily armed than a standard US Army/Marine squad. Any US squad will be fielding 3 249 SMGs and 3 M203 Grenade Launchers.
The standard Guardsman probably has more combat experience than a typical Marine/Solder, but I doubt that their training would be on par with them. The fluff for Stormtroopers isn't particularly impressive, they don't hold a candle up to prowess of Delta Force/SAS/Navy Seals.
It's difficult to compare the tactics of the two forces. The IG fights on a much larger scale. They fight total wars. The last major war for any Western nation was Vietnam. Modern western militaries are more experienced in small scale operations.
100 Guardsman vs 100 Soldiers/Marines? It's a toss up.
Stormtroopers vs elite Special Forces units? Modern Special Forces hands down.
IG vs any modern military in a all out war? Get ready to start praising the God Emperor.
You're forgetting the part where the selection process for basic guardsmen is as rigorous as that for modern special forces, and I doubt the training is any less rigorous. The one resource the Imperium has above all others is manpower, so they can afford to be picky about who they give their comparably rare and valuable armaments to. Beyond that, they're covered from head to toe in body armor capable of laughing off hits from .50 caliber assault rifles (autoguns, notably of much larger caliber than modern assault rifles) and frag grenades, while wielding weapons that can blast holes in solid rock instantly and with perfect accuracy.
im2randomghgh wrote:And also, odd as it may sound, modern body armour is more advanced than IG flak armour, probably on par with carapace armour, if not better.
And then comes Kaskins with their almost Space Marine armors....
And beside - they didn't test it on Lasfire or Plasma
Automatically Appended Next Post:
im2randomghgh wrote:
It would be just as hard to shoot down the modern nukes (which would penetrate voids) as it would be to shoot down future missiles, which they seem to have a hard time doing. Plus the US has 25,000 nuclear missiles...
Also, the railgun was unrelated. Just impressive. The IoM failed to master that technology, and yet not us?
Oh boy...
First - there is no proff that our one nuclear missile can even reach Imperial Space ship.
Second - Ship plasma batteries probably have more power by x times than today nuclear missile. And even they have hard time in penetrating void shields.
Third - If USA have 25.000 nukes than Russia have 48.000. And where did you imagine that number? USA have around 10.400 and Russia have around 13.000 nukes. See here:
Third - Imperial has more powerful guns than Railgun, and probably had it before they lost all tech ( and god knows what they had beside that... ).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
halonachos wrote:
Emperors Faithful wrote:
Melissia wrote:
Emperors Faithful wrote:Just to point out people, we are talking about the Imperial Guard here. Although often used in support, the Imperial Navy is completely seperate.
The same way the US Air Force is separate from the US Army, so if we remove the Imperial Navy, we're also gonna remove the USAAF.
Not so. Imperial Guard regiments are often completely removed from any Naval (space) assets, having to rely solely on more land based aircraft (even though these aircrafts can often achieve limited space-flight as well). Naval assets are can by no means be reliably called upon, which is why Artillery is always preffered.
In contrast, when was the last time the US Army operated independantly from the it's Airforce?
You have to be careful here because there is such a thing as the air cavalry, and the Army does maintain a small amount of aircraft namely helicopters. Similar to the Navy which maintains F-18 Super Hornets and previously maintained F-14 Tomcats. The Air Force has the F-16 Eagle and F-22 Raptor along with the A-10 Warthog.
People are you insane? We are debating will USA kick but army with countless billions of solders with better equipment, powerfull tanks, orbital support ( we ARE counting ships because there is no other way to reach Terra, I mean Earth ), powerful artillery and not to mention every nation military doctrine.
And why are all of you only taking US army? They are not the only military force on this planet you know. You have EU, Russia, China... Just because in every movie their movie they army is "all awesome" doesn't meant that they can alone defeat all world. But to be realistic in all out war we would push IG from planet, but after that they would just bombard our planet until we surrender. And why are you counting technology that we can't use, the tech which is still in development - and the tech that cost like entire EU year's budget.
Be on realistic side - against IoM we don't have any chance. Even if we beat Guard - they would send 100 Black Templar that would beat all our army's...
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2011/05/07 09:38:05
For Emperor and Imperium!!!! None shall stand against the Crusade of the Righteous!!! Kanluwen wrote: "I like the Tau. I just don't like people misconstruing things to say that it means that they're somehow a huge galactic threat. They're not. They're a threat to the Imperium of Man like sharks are a threat to the US Army."
"Pain is temporary, honor is forever" Emperor of Mankind:
"The day I have a sit-down with a pansy elf, magic mushroom, or commie frog is the day I put a bolt shell in my head."
in your name it shall be done" My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/2SSSR2
Viersche wrote:
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
the Emperor might be the greatest psyker that ever lived, but he doesn't have the specialized training that a Grey Knight has. Also he doesn't have a Grey Knight's unshakable faith in the Emperor.
The Emperor doesn't have a GKs unshakable faith in the Emperor which is....basically himself?
Ronin wrote:
"Brother Coa (and the OP Tadashi) is like, the biggest IoM fanboy I can think of here. It's like he IS from the Imperium, sent back in time and across dimensions."
Amaya wrote:The Imperium lacks the tactical flexibility of modern western fire teams/squads. They also are less heavily armed than a standard US Army/Marine squad. Any US squad will be fielding 3 249 SMGs and 3 M203 Grenade Launchers.
False.
A lasgun is damn powerful, it is stared in fluff it can blow limbs off its targets with one shot. Each Guardsman has a lasgun, and let me point out that the lasguns are flexible enough to function as SMGs (lower power full auto) semi-auto rifles (high power, single shot) or assault rifles (medium power, burst). So, those SMGs are taken care of.
3 Grenade launcher...I'd take one guy with a melta or plasma gun please, and this isn't even getting into IG Vets who carry more specialist equipment, or the heavy weapons often integral to a IG Squad.
As to 'tactical flexibility', care to explain? Guardsmen don't always deploy in massed human waves, they are capable of fighting mechanized manuver warfare. An IG squad can easily function using fire and manuver tactics.
Face it, a single IG squad has more firepower and better armor than the equivalent modern soldier. IN an infantry fight, the IG will kick our asses.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/05/07 12:53:21
"If everything on Earth were rational, nothing would ever happen."
~Fyodor Dostoevsky
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
~Hanlon's Razor
Amaya wrote:The Imperium lacks the tactical flexibility of modern western fire teams/squads. They also are less heavily armed than a standard US Army/Marine squad. Any US squad will be fielding 3 249 SMGs and 3 M203 Grenade Launchers.
The standard Guardsman probably has more combat experience than a typical Marine/Solder, but I doubt that their training would be on par with them. The fluff for Stormtroopers isn't particularly impressive, they don't hold a candle up to prowess of Delta Force/SAS/Navy Seals.
It's difficult to compare the tactics of the two forces. The IG fights on a much larger scale. They fight total wars. The last major war for any Western nation was Vietnam. Modern western militaries are more experienced in small scale operations.
100 Guardsman vs 100 Soldiers/Marines? It's a toss up. Stormtroopers vs elite Special Forces units? Modern Special Forces hands down. IG vs any modern military in a all out war? Get ready to start praising the God Emperor.
A Guard squad is just as tactically flexible as any marine squad. Whilst they don't have the same training, they are still individual squads led by an experienced sergeant who are able to be creative. We've been over this many times. Those marine weapons are outclassed by a long way by IG weapons. In addition to that, they would have a hard time penetrating your standard guardsmans armour. Training I agree, in terms of the basic training a marine receives compared to the basic training of a guardsmen, the marine wins. In terms of experience, the IG wins hands down. Contrary to popular belief, the majority of guardsmen will survive their first battle, their second, third, many more over a lifetime career. Of course, only a minority will survive until 'retirement', but most will rack up an impressive amount of experience fighting in all different kinds of battlefields against many different enemies. Stormtroopers are infinitely better than any of those examples. They are heavily armed, armoured and are better trained than said examples. They carry out the duties of today's special forces with success that are many times more difficult and dangerous. 100 marines vs an equivalent force of Imperial Guard is a closer battle that depends on which regiment the guardsmen are chosen from and the environment, but I atill think IG would win regardless. Stormtroopers vs modern special forces? Stormtroopers would annihilate our best. Better tactics, technology, experience, weaponry, armour and training, it would be a no-contest.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/05/07 13:10:12
Stormtroopers are in another class themselves. If you want to bring the Schola Progenium into this, we humans of modern Earth have NOTHING equal to it.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/05/07 13:04:22
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Indeed, Storm Troopers would be overkill. Their standard, assault rifle-equivalent (in usage I mean, not in power) punches through Power Armour. Imagine a soldier who has been genetically modified, stuffed full of combat drugs and essentially brainwashed since he was a child, wearing armour that stops .75 cal missiles reliably with a gun that can fire in full auto mode while being able to penetrate tank armour. And no, this isn't a Space Marine, this is a "mere" Guardsman, albeit an awesome one.
On a side note: Marbo versus 100 modern day troops?
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
For small unit combat modern US military wins hands down. Why? We outrange everything they have by miles. Everything is 32" scale. That means the maximum range of a lasgun is 64 feet. On the weapons qualification range the closest target that we start shooting at is 50 feet, and goes all the way up to 500 feet...accuratly.
Thats also not including our highly accurate mortar fire (we hit our targets way more than 1/3 of the time). More integerated support elements (multiple gernade launchers and machine guns equiped as standard) where as the IG special wepons are designed to take out Sci-Fi targets which have no equivilant today making them useless.
darwinn69 wrote:For small unit combat modern US military wins hands down. Why? We outrange everything they have by miles. Everything is 32" scale. That means the maximum range of a lasgun is 64 feet. On the weapons qualification range the closest target that we start shooting at is 50 feet, and goes all the way up to 500 feet...accuratly.
Thats also not including our highly accurate mortar fire (we hit our targets way more than 1/3 of the time). More integerated support elements (multiple gernade launchers and machine guns equiped as standard) where as the IG special wepons are designed to take out Sci-Fi targets which have no equivilant today making them useless.
Ever heard of a logarithmic scale?
Besides, while more than 33% mortar accuracy is impressive, lascannons hit where you point them. That's a 100% accuracy. Same thing with lasguns and multilasers. As for plasma guns and melta guns being somehow "useless", would that mean that if I traveled back in time and brought a .50 cal. machine gun with a mountain of ammo to the Crusades it'd be useless because it isn't designed to kill knights on horseback?
The Imperial Guard doesn't need "machine guns" integrated into their units, they have a hand-held weapon that shoots holes through concrete walls, which can also serve as a machine gun on lower settings. Instead of machine guns, they have what more or less amounts to a cannon firing 1.0 caliber missiles or a man-portable anti-tank cannon with pretty impressive RoF. Every Imperial Guard squad has some kind of special weapon, which means your "more integrated support elements" point is more or less moot.
darwinn69 wrote:For small unit combat modern US military wins hands down. Why? We outrange everything they have by miles. Everything is 32" scale. That means the maximum range of a lasgun is 64 feet. On the weapons qualification range the closest target that we start shooting at is 50 feet, and goes all the way up to 500 feet...accuratly.
Thats also not including our highly accurate mortar fire (we hit our targets way more than 1/3 of the time). More integerated support elements (multiple gernade launchers and machine guns equiped as standard) where as the IG special wepons are designed to take out Sci-Fi targets which have no equivilant today making them useless.
REAL professionals....
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/05/07 15:17:34
For Emperor and Imperium!!!! None shall stand against the Crusade of the Righteous!!! Kanluwen wrote: "I like the Tau. I just don't like people misconstruing things to say that it means that they're somehow a huge galactic threat. They're not. They're a threat to the Imperium of Man like sharks are a threat to the US Army."
"Pain is temporary, honor is forever" Emperor of Mankind:
"The day I have a sit-down with a pansy elf, magic mushroom, or commie frog is the day I put a bolt shell in my head."
in your name it shall be done" My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/2SSSR2
Viersche wrote:
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
the Emperor might be the greatest psyker that ever lived, but he doesn't have the specialized training that a Grey Knight has. Also he doesn't have a Grey Knight's unshakable faith in the Emperor.
The Emperor doesn't have a GKs unshakable faith in the Emperor which is....basically himself?
Ronin wrote:
"Brother Coa (and the OP Tadashi) is like, the biggest IoM fanboy I can think of here. It's like he IS from the Imperium, sent back in time and across dimensions."
darwinn69 wrote:For small unit combat modern US military wins hands down. Why? We outrange everything they have by miles. Everything is 32" scale. That means the maximum range of a lasgun is 64 feet. On the weapons qualification range the closest target that we start shooting at is 50 feet, and goes all the way up to 500 feet...accuratly.
It's been accepted long ago that the rangs listed in the rules are meant for balance and playing the game. It's not fun to have two lines of infantry 6 feet away pouring shots at each other. So GW makes thart impossibl.e
Thats also not including our highly accurate mortar fire (we hit our targets way more than 1/3 of the time). More integerated support elements (multiple gernade launchers and machine guns equiped as standard) where as the IG special wepons are designed to take out Sci-Fi targets which have no equivilant today making them useless.
Once again, multiple grenade launchers vs. plasma and melta. I'd take the gun that can make mincemeat of any tank or the rifle that can kill light vehicles thank you very much.
To you last sentence. Are you crazy? Just because a plasma gun is designed to kill terminators doesn't mean it'll be any less effective when turned on infantry, hell it might even be more effective and the ability to hurt light vehicles would be useful against everything from attack helicopters to Humvees, Strykers and Bradleys. Melta guns will kill tanks, and we have tanks. Just because they're specialized to one role doesn't mean they're 'useless' when they can't shoot at their favourite target.
"If everything on Earth were rational, nothing would ever happen."
~Fyodor Dostoevsky
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
~Hanlon's Razor
darwinn69 wrote:For small unit combat modern US military wins hands down. Why? We outrange everything they have by miles. Everything is 32" scale. That means the maximum range of a lasgun is 64 feet. On the weapons qualification range the closest target that we start shooting at is 50 feet, and goes all the way up to 500 feet...accuratly.
Thats also not including our highly accurate mortar fire (we hit our targets way more than 1/3 of the time). More integerated support elements (multiple gernade launchers and machine guns equiped as standard) where as the IG special wepons are designed to take out Sci-Fi targets which have no equivilant today making them useless.
Yeah, use in-game rules why don't you. 64 feet? I can't believe you really think that. A lasgun has more range than a bullet by far, it's a laser, just concentrated light. It ihts where you want it, not disrupted by wind or distance. Outrange everything? Imperial Navy? Lascannons? Basalisk? Volcano Cannon? We have nothing that can outrange a lance battery from an Imperial Navy ship. It will hit and destroy anything we have and is accurate to within a few feet.
Again, they have mortars that are more accurate than ours and more destructive. They will hit their targets four fifths of the time. Grenade Launchers and Machine guns are integrated as standard to any IG platoon, as well as heavy bolters, flamers, autocannons, melta weapons, plasma weapons. Are trying to suggest that a lascannon will have no effect on an abrams but will work on any alien walker? Explain you're reasoning. A lascannon is just a highly powerful lasgun. It works regardless. Like almighty Walrus said with his Crusades analogy, that heavy machine gun will mow down Knights just as easily as they mow down insurgents in Afghanistan, the Knights plate armour will be useless.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/05/07 15:24:08
707th Lubyan Aquila Banner Motor Rifle Regiment (6000 pts)
Battlefleet Tomania (2500 pts)
), powerful artillery and not to mention every nation military doctrine.
"Pain is temporary, honor is forever" 
in your name it shall be done" 
