Advice on dealing non-WYSIWYG in major events

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**Polonius**

Just to point something out: Being French Canadian isn't something a person chooses. Being drunk at an event is a personal choice.

LIkewise, if I draw a person with a learning or mental disability, I would do my best to play them and be respectful. It's a big hobby, and as long as I'm able to complete my games and get through it, I'm good with it.

Actual intoxication is a touchy subject for some people. A lot of people are recovering addicts, others seek out 40k simply because it's a pretty mellow environment. It's not totally out of line for people to not want to be around drunks.

**Dashofpepper**

There's only one person in the history of my 40k experience that has ever played against me in a tournament while I was drunk. And I even had a designated driver prepared!
----------------------------------------------------------
Grimgob:

I just got off the phone with Hulksmash - reviewing memories of last year's Slaughter in Space. This may be a waste of typing, but I'm going to take a stab anyway.

Hulksmash says that he got the impression that you wanted to meet me at the SiS to bury the hatchet and try forging a friendship. If that is truly the case, then I'm regretful for our interactions have played out thus far.

I tend to drink a little at events; enough to get a little buzz, but not overly much. Mostly I share. I made a special exception last year at the SoCal Slaughter in Space - I was told that my final game pairing was going to be Hulksmash...and his Space Wolves vs. my Dark Eldar was going to pretty much be an auto-lose on my part and knock me out of placing. I decided to get blitzed after lunch so that I wouldn't feel bad about losing, and could take it with grace and resigned myself to losing.

Turns out that I got paired against Dave Faye instead - and instead of gracefully conceding after moving my models around and getting blown up, I had an actual game on hand - one where we only got through three turns because I *was* trashed.

I asked Hulk about you and your daughter; he said that I was loud and funny, but to a four year old that might be scary - my apologies if I scared your daughter. I'm not sure what you're talking about switching up FAQs; I asked Brad about that -- he said that one of the other Dark Eldar players was wandering by my table and saw me using 3+ to hit instead of 4+, and instead stopping to ask what their drug was, presumed I was using wych weapons wrong. That's what happens when you assume - you make an ass out of you and an ass out of me.

The hippe comment I *do* remember, and that was distinctly aimed at Brad. On Dakka, it was quoted for Brad, and in person at the event, also aimed at Brad. Even Brad said that it was an inside joke; overhearing it doesn't mean that I'm including anyone else in my "tree hugging granola munching hippie" comment.....but it was a funny inside joke about him wearing tie-dye and some other things.

In short, here's where I'm going with this. If I've unknowingly caused offense, I apologize. I'm not apologizing for causing all offense, because my comments on Dakka were intentional and defensive against what I have seen for the last year+ as unprovoked verbal assault on me. But if I unknowingly offended at the SiS, I do apologize. If you were truly meaning to bury the hatchet, its regrettable that we didn't get a chance to share a drink (*grimace*) and start fresh.

Perhaps you'll consider an honest effort in return to bury the hatchet? My list of enemies on Dakka has shrunk significantly over the last year....I'm down to about four "serious" Dash-haters. Two of them in the same thread here! If I can patch it with you, that's 25% reduction in enemy forces. =D And despite the light banter at the end there, I *am* serious. I do apologize for my part in us getting off on the wrong foot, and harbor you no true ill-will.

**Heffling**

Dashofpepper wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
DOP we'll have to get together a game. You bring the Dark rum, I'll bring the coconut rum, and we'll have a rum off!

Actually, that was my offer for the Whiskey Challenge at the Nova Open. Every time a model in your army dies, you take a shot of rum. =D I think my Whiskey Challenge Opponent declined that, and settled it to one shot per phase.

Yeah, so this doesn't favor MEQ over Hordes.

**Grimgob**

Dashofpepper wrote:There's only one person in the history of my 40k experience that has ever played against me in a tournament while I was drunk. And I even had a designated driver prepared!
----------------------------------------------------------
Grimgob:

I just got off the phone with Hulksmash - reviewing memories of last year's Slaughter in Space. This may be a waste of typing, but I'm going to take a stab anyway.

Hulksmash says that he got the impression that you wanted to meet me at the SiS to bury the hatchet and try forging a friendship. If that is truly the case, then I'm regretful for our interactions have played out thus far. True I was and I wanted to test ur skills.

I tend to drink a little at events; enough to get a little buzz, but not overly much. Mostly I share. I made a special exception last year at the SoCal Slaughter in Space - I was told that my final game pairing was going to be Hulksmash...and his Space Wolves vs. my Dark Eldar was going to pretty much be an auto-lose on my part and knock me out of placing. I decided to get blitzed after lunch so that I wouldn't feel bad about losing, and could take it with grace and resigned myself to losing. This has been stated before and is still not an excuse

Turns out that I got paired against Dave Faye instead - and instead of gracefully conceding after moving my models around and getting blown up, I had an actual game on hand - one where we only got through three turns because I *was* trashed.

I asked Hulk about you and your daughter; he said that I was loud and funny, but to a four year old that might be scary - my apologies if I scared your daughter. I'm not sure what you're talking about switching up FAQs; I asked Brad about that -- he said that one of the other Dark Eldar players was wandering by my table and saw me using 3+ to hit instead of 4+, and instead stopping to ask what their drug was, presumed I was using wych weapons wrong. That's what happens when you assume - you make an ass out of you and an ass out of me. I accept ur apologe to my daughter (and appreciate the effort) on the other note a couple of people noticed you using rules from two different and it was even brought up to the TO.

The hippe comment I *do* remember, and that was distinctly aimed at Brad. On Dakka, it was quoted for Brad, and in person at the event, also aimed at Brad. Even Brad said that it was an inside joke; overhearing it doesn't mean that I'm including anyone else in my "tree hugging granola munching hippie" comment.....but it was a funny inside joke about him wearing tie-dye and some other things. If you yell it out to a room full of people as you hold up ur prize it pretty easy to take it bad as several people there did.

In short, here's where I'm going with this. If I've unknowingly caused offense, I apologize. I'm not apologizing for causing all offense, because my comments on Dakka were intentional and defensive against what I have seen for the last year+ as unprovoked verbal assault on me. But if I unknowingly offended at the SiS, I do apologize. If you were truly meaning to bury the hatchet, its regrettable that we didn't get a chance to share a drink (*grimace*) and start fresh. I called you a name and appologized but I often disagree with you and when I give my opinion its not an attack and I dont stalk you it just its hard to go on this site and not run into you mr.6000 posts

Perhaps you'll consider an honest effort in return to bury the hatchet? My list of enemies on Dakka has shrunk significantly over the last year....I'm down to about four "serious" Dash-haters. Two of them in the same thread here! If I can patch it with you, that's 25% reduction in enemy forces. =D And despite the light banter at the end there, I *am* serious. I do apologize for my part in us getting off on the wrong foot, and harbor you no true ill-will. Ur only enemy is ur big mouth.

**pretre**

Heffling wrote:
Dashofpepper wrote:Actually, that was my offer for the Whiskey Challenge at the Nova Open. Every time a model in your army dies, you take a shot of rum. =D I think my Whiskey Challenge Opponent declined that, and settled it to one shot per phase.

Yeah, so this doesn't favor MEQ over Hordes.

Psst, Dash is bringing DE, I believe. Keep up.

**Gornall**

Now that all that is done... Who wants to tell me the minimum standard to have a WYSIWYG BA army? Does it have to have 2 blood drops per guy? What if the guys dont have the new bits but are red?

**Dashofpepper**

You quoted me but didn't respond...

**Target**

Dashofpepper wrote:You quoted me but didn't respond...

He did, they're mashed into the end of what you said, he didnt diferentiate his text from yours very well/responded within the quote box. Just check the ends of the lines.

**pretre**

Grimgob wrote:
Dashofpepper wrote:
Hulksmash says that he got the impression that you wanted to meet me at the SiS to bury the hatchet and try forging a friendship. If that is truly the case, then I'm regretful for our interactions have played out thus far.
True I was and I wanted to test ur skills.

Dashofpepper wrote:
I tend to drink a little at events; enough to get a little buzz, but not overly much. Mostly I share. I made a special exception last year at the SoCal Slaughter in Space - I was told that my final game pairing was going to be Hulksmash...and his Space Wolves vs. my Dark Eldar was going to pretty much be an auto-lose on my part and knock me out of placing. I decided to get blitzed after lunch so that I wouldn't feel bad about losing, and could take it with grace and resigned myself to losing.
This has been stated before and is still not an excuse

Dashofpepper wrote:I asked Hulk about you and your daughter; he said that I was loud and funny, but to a four year old that might be scary - my apologies if I scared your daughter. I'm not sure what you're talking about switching up FAQs; I asked Brad about that -- he said that one of the other Dark Eldar players was wandering by my table and saw me using 3+ to hit instead of 4+, and instead stopping to ask what their drug was, presumed I was using wych weapons wrong. That's what happens when you assume - you make an ass out of you and an ass out of me.
I accept ur apologe to my daughter (and appreciate the effort) on the other note a couple of people noticed you using rules from two different and it was even brought up to the TO.

Dashofpepper wrote:The hippe comment I *do* remember, and that was distinctly aimed at Brad. On Dakka, it was quoted for Brad, and in person at the event, also aimed at Brad. Even Brad said that it was an inside joke; overhearing it doesn't mean that I'm including anyone else in my "tree hugging granola munching hippie" comment.....but it was a funny inside joke about him wearing tie-dye and some other things.
If you yell it out to a room full of people as you hold up ur prize it pretty easy to take it bad as several people there did.

Dashofpepper wrote:In short, here's where I'm going with this. If I've unknowingly caused offense, I apologize. I'm not apologizing for causing all offense, because my comments on Dakka were intentional and defensive against what I have seen for the last year+ as unprovoked verbal assault on me. But if I unknowingly offended at the SiS, I do apologize. If you were truly meaning to bury the hatchet, its regrettable that we didn't get a chance to share a drink (*grimace*) and start fresh.
I called you a name and appologized but I often disagree with you and when I give my opinion its not an attack and I dont stalk you it just its hard to go on this site and not run into you mr.6000 posts

Dashofpepper wrote:
Perhaps you'll consider an honest effort in return to bury the hatchet? My list of enemies on Dakka has shrunk significantly over the last year....I'm down to about four "serious" Dash-haters. Two of them in the same thread here! If I can patch it with you, that's 25% reduction in enemy forces. =D And despite the light banter at the end there, I *am* serious. I do apologize for my part in us getting off on the wrong foot, and harbor you no true ill-will.
Ur only enemy is ur big mouth.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
FTFY

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gornall wrote:Now that all that is done... Who wants to tell me the minimum standard to have a WYSIWYG BA army? Does it have to have 2 blood drops per guy? What if the guys dont have the new bits but are red?

Dude, that's 2 pages ago. There isn't one. Don't troll.

**Kilkrazy**

It is all peace 'n' loev now then?

**Lorek**

I sure hope so.

What this all boils down to is:

1. How the Tournament Organizer handles their own tournaments.
2. How tolerant you are and what your preferences are about modeling.
3. How much you're willing to argue with someone about this face-to-face in an actual tournament setting.

All of these items vary, so we're not going to reach a consensus (as per usual). I'm not sure how much further this thread can go without straying way off-topic again.

**Gornall**

I am honestly not trolling. I am trying to stay on the actual topic. I would argue the last 3+ pages have been more offtopic trolling than anything I said. I want to know what the standard is for Marine armies to be WYSIWYG. If painting BA models blue makes them unusuable as BA then that is a different standard than what is being applied to other codexes IMO.

**Polonius**

Most players, and most touranments, have little problem with armies modelled and painted as custom chapters using any codex.

So, blue marines could be blood angels, as long as they were WYSIWYG. Things get sticker if they are actually Ultras, of course.

**Gornall**

Polonius wrote:Most players, and most touranments, have little problem with armies modelled and painted as custom chapters using any codex.

So, blue marines could be blood angels, as long as they were WYSIWYG. Things get sticker if they are actually Ultras, of course.

So the addition of an Ultra signal would invalidate the army and make it non-WYSIWYG? Thats my problem with painting and bits being considered part of WYSIWYG... It is too subjective. Don't get me wrong... I would completely understand taking a comp/theme hit because those are meant to judge subjective things. However, WYSIWYG in regards to whether an army is legal at a GT should be a very clear/defined standard with no personal interpretation or chance for bias. All just my opinion though...

**Redbeard**

It's really up to the tournament, and the players involved.

I don't think that it is at all subjective that a model that is built with Tactical Space Marine parts, and painted as a codex chapter, with codex chapter iconography should be expected to use Codex: Space Marines. That's a very objective decision.

I also have no doubt that, in reality, even if the event rules specifically state that you can't do it, someone would do it, and anyone who called them on it would be called names on the internet, in spite of the fact that the person with the army was actually the one violating the rules for the event.

**Polonius**

I'll say this: using strong imagery (blue marines with Omegas) as blood angels simply more confusing than using grey marines as blood angels.

Using Space Wolves as Templars is also more confusing.

As a general rule of thumb, there is generally little problem with using DIY marines as any codex.

Adding a single Omega, as you suggest, probably wouldn't be confusing, as that's a relatively minor detail. A while army painted blue with gold trim? that clearly looks like ultras to most gamers.

**Hulksmash**

@Dash + Grimgob

Don't bring me into the middle of this dudes. I happen to like Grimgob. Had 2 great games against him at 2 different events. Nice dude and fun to chat with. Was bummed when he couldn't make it out to the Nova. Also have good times with Dash. He's a good dude and one of my friends. I also told him he crossed the the regular drinking line and the drunk line that last game at the Slaughter. I like both you dudes and I don't take sides. Life is long enough without adding in drama or anger at others over the little things. Let it all drop.

Mods I'd honestly prefer if the entirety of their posts regarding the SiS were removed (this included if you remove those) and they were asked to take it to PM.

**whitedragon**

Polonius wrote:I'll say this: using strong imagery (blue marines with Omegas) as blood angels simply more confusing than using grey marines as blood angels.

Using Space Wolves as Templars is also more confusing.

As a general rule of thumb, there is generally little problem with using DIY marines as any codex.

Adding a single Omega, as you suggest, probably wouldn't be confusing, as that's a relatively minor detail. A while army painted blue with gold trim? that clearly looks like ultras to most gamers.

Mark Ferek made it to the final round at NOVA against Tony Kopach's Space Wolves with a Crimson Fist "Counts As" Blood Angels army.
http://www.baldandscreaming.com/army-lists/nova-open-army-lists-mark-ferek-%E2%80%93-tournament-finalist/

**Gornall**

Redbeard wrote:It's really up to the tournament, and the players involved.

I don't think that it is at all subjective that a model that is built with Tactical Space Marine parts, and painted as a codex chapter, with codex chapter iconography should be expected to use Codex: Space Marines. That's a very objective decision.

I also have no doubt that, in reality, even if the event rules specifically state that you can't do it, someone would do it, and anyone who called them on it would be called names on the internet, in spite of the fact that the person with the army was actually the one violating the rules for the event.

If the event specifically states you couldnt use blue BA then you either deal with it or vote with your feet. Anything else is just being TFG. However, if the event just says WYSIWYG then how are blue BA any different than pink speed freaks or yellow uthwae?

**pretre**

whitedragon wrote:Mark Ferek made it to the final round at NOVA against Tony Kopach's Space Wolves with a Crimson Fist "Counts As" Blood Angels army.
http://www.baldandscreaming.com/army-lists/nova-open-army-lists-mark-ferek-%E2%80%93-tournament-finalist/

And his army looked pretty WYSIWYG from the looks of those pictures. Not sure why he went CF for the paint scheme.

**Polonius**

whitedragon wrote:
Polonius wrote:I'll say this: using strong imagery (blue marines with Omegas) as blood angels simply more confusing than using grey marines as blood angels.

Using Space Wolves as Templars is also more confusing.

As a general rule of thumb, there is generally little problem with using DIY marines as any codex.

Adding a single Omega, as you suggest, probably wouldn't be confusing, as that's a relatively minor detail. A while army painted blue with gold trim? that clearly looks like ultras to most gamers.

Mark Ferek made it to the final round at NOVA against Tony Kopach's Space Wolves with a Crimson Fist "Counts As" Blood Angels army.
http://www.baldandscreaming.com/army-lists/nova-open-army-lists-mark-ferek-%E2%80%93-tournament-finalist/

Well, I'm cool with nearly any counts as. I'm saying, that if there were to be a general rule, not using a well known paint scheme for another book isn't a bad one. Even then, Crimson Fists aren't ultras.

**Gornall**

pretre wrote:
whitedragon wrote:Mark Ferek made it to the final round at NOVA against Tony Kopach's Space Wolves with a Crimson Fist "Counts As" Blood Angels army.
http://www.baldandscreaming.com/army-lists/nova-open-army-lists-mark-ferek-%E2%80%93-tournament-finalist/

And his army looked pretty WYSIWYG from the looks of those pictures. Not sure why he went CF for the paint scheme.

Either he already had most of the models or just really liked the CF fluff. Personally... I hate the BA fluff but like how their rules represent Marines: fast, hard-hitting, and tough. They have Apothecaries and Libby Dreads and Reclusiarchs... All things that aren't outside the realm of a Smurf force but arent in that codex.

**whitedragon**

Redbeard wrote:It's really up to the tournament, and the players involved.

I don't think that it is at all subjective that a model that is built with Tactical Space Marine parts, and painted as a codex chapter, with codex chapter iconography should be expected to use Codex: Space Marines. That's a very objective decision.

I also have no doubt that, in reality, even if the event rules specifically state that you can't do it, someone would do it, and anyone who called them on it would be called names on the internet, in spite of the fact that the person with the army was actually the one violating the rules for the event.

Polonius wrote:I'll say this: using strong imagery (blue marines with Omegas) as blood angels simply more confusing than using grey marines as blood angels.

Using Space Wolves as Templars is also more confusing.

As a general rule of thumb, there is generally little problem with using DIY marines as any codex.

Adding a single Omega, as you suggest, probably wouldn't be confusing, as that's a relatively minor detail. A while army painted blue with gold trim? that clearly looks like ultras to most gamers.

Polonius wrote:

Well, I'm cool with nearly any counts as. I'm saying, that if there were to be a general rule, not using a well known paint scheme for another book isn't a bad one. Even then, Crimson Fists aren't ultras.

Crimson Fists follow the Codex Astartes just as closely as the Ultramarines. A Crimson Fists army should then, by your own admissions, use only Codex Space Marines, they even have their special character in the Codex Space Marine book. However, Mark Ferek's army is fully WYSIWIG by the standard of the Nova Open (which is a pretty big competitive tournament and probably a good tournament barometer), and you yourself said that Crimson Fists are ok with the Crimson Fist repping Blood Angels. Seems like you're see-sawing back and forth.

I'd posit that that Crimson Fist army is fully WYSIWIG regardless of what chapter iconography they have.

**MikeMcSomething**

The idea that "A box of Space Wolves is completely irreconcilably different than a box of tactical marines or a box of blood angels" is a relatively new construct - until very recently, a unit of space wolves/black templar/dark angels etc was just a tac marine box painted in the appropriate colors (and there were some chapter color guides on the back of the box IIRC). Is a unit of grey tac marines with yellow shoulderpads wielding a combination of Bolter, BP, and CCW no longer WYSIWYG as grey hunters because GW released a sprue of wolfcapes? Does the player get the OK for using last edition's Grey Hunters if he can prove he bought them before the new box came out? What if the BA player uses plain shoulderpads?

Saying that a blood angel with a bolter somehow has equal commonality to an ork with a shoota and an ultramarine with a bolter and that all 3 of those models are somehow 'equally different' with regards to say, a Genestealer, is ignoring the fact that you're using an exaggerated premise in favor of building an argument. Ultramarines are differentiated from Dark Eldar by virtually every aspect of their range. Until someone releases a chart for the proper amount of wolf paws you need to have hanging off your shoulderpads before you're able to buy a house on Fenris, Ultramarines are differentiated from Space Wolves by what color they are painted.

**pretre**

MikeMcSomething wrote:The idea that "A box of Space Wolves is completely irreconcilably different than a box of tactical marines or a box of blood angels" is a relatively new construct - until very recently, a unit of space wolves/black templar/dark angels etc was just a tac marine box painted in the appropriate colors (and there were some chapter color guides on the back of the box IIRC).

This is not really true. There have been chapter specific tac squads with separate models going back to at least 2nd edition. Space Wolves, DA, BA at the very least and I'm sure there are more. Does that mean you can't mix the normal ones? Of course not.

**Polonius**

I'm saying that using Ultras (or BA) as Space Wolves is more confusing than using Grey Marines as Blood Angels.

Using Crimson Fists as Blood Angels will be more confusing to some, and no more confusing to others. It's a middle ground, and one that really shows the difficulty in drawing a clear line.

I'd say this: while I support counts as fully, I would have no real objection to a "counts-as" rule being stated as thus:
Any chapter that has a named character, rule, or other way to be played, should use the rules of the codex in which they belong.

So, if you paint your marines as White Scars, because the Khan is in Codex: SM, they must be played out of them.

I don't favor that rule (I think BA makes for great Scars), but I can see the internal consistency of it.

**whitedragon**

Polonius wrote:I'm saying that using Ultras (or BA) as Space Wolves is more confusing than using Grey Marines as Blood Angels.

Using Crimson Fists as Blood Angels will be more confusing to some, and no more confusing to others. It's a middle ground, and one that really shows the difficulty in drawing a clear line.

I'd say this: while I support counts as fully, I would have no real objection to a "counts-as" rule being stated as thus:
Any chapter that has a named character, rule, or other way to be played, should use the rules of the codex in which they belong.

So, if you paint your marines as White Scars, because the Khan is in Codex: SM, they must be played out of them.

I don't favor that rule (I think BA makes for great Scars), but I can see the internal consistency of it.

And currently such a rule doesn't exist, which is why we are all having a hard time defining WYSIWIG.

**Polonius**

I'm not saying it's the general rule. I think that if a tournament made that the official rule, it would satisfy most people.

**whitedragon**

Polonius wrote:I'm not saying it's the general rule. I think that if a tournament made that the official rule, it would satisfy most people.

I dunno, I'd say that people want their space marines generic and their counts as "loose", unless you play xenos.

**Redbeard**

Some people do. Some people want the armies they're playing with, and against, to represent the codex they're playing with, or against. It's not just xenos players who are frustrated when faced with what appears to be a Chaos Space Marine army, or a Space Marine army, only to find out that they're actually playing against Space Wolves.