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Is Power Armor a Weapon or Wargear? Does it state Power Armor as equipment under the unit entry for Tactical Marines in Codex: Space Marines, Dark Angels, or Blood Angels? Does it state it under the entry for Grey Hunters?

If not, then by what I'm being told, it doesn't have to be modeled.

What I'm trying to get it is that this issue has two extremes:

1) Every Model must be fully modeled according to the codex for which it is to be used, utilizing official GW models appropriate to that codex.

2) Every model may be proxied.

Neither of these are generally considered acceptable. So, there's a middle ground in the grey area. What I'm wanting to define is the "fine line" that would be drawn between one extreme and the other.

For example, stating that all models must be appropriately modeled with Wargear and Weapons is a fine line. It would mean that any model could be utilized as long as it meets those conditions.

If any of the SM codices don't reference Power Armor as a wargear in the unit entry, then it wouldn't have to be modeled. Thus, I could use an ork as long as he has the appropriate Wargear and Weapons (such as, for example, Purity Seals and/or a Bolter). It would meet the definition.

If the unit entry does state Power Armor as wargear, then I could model my orks to have Power Armor as previously shown in this thread, and it would meet the definition requirements.

If I were to show someone who had little or no experience with 40k unpainted models from the SM codices, they would immediately spot the differences. Yes, an ork is more different, but where do you draw the line? Why is it ok to use a tac marine as ultramarines, salamanders, dark angels, blood angels, black templars, and space wolves but it's not ok to use an ork as one?

If the answer is because of Power Armor, then what if I model my orks to have Power Armor? They would clearly be armored orks and not space marines, but would you allow them?

So my question is, where do you draw the line?

Heffling wrote:
So my question is, where do you draw the line?

I don't. I can't say "It must stay within the army to be considered acceptable" because---as I linked earlier----there is a terrific Genestealer cult army that jumps books----and I would gladly play it.

If I were forced to develop a structure? Probably;

1. Are they modeling for advantage?
2. Did they communicate well on what is what?

If I can answer no to 1 and yes to 2---then game on. (Note that that same rule set can be applied to non-converted armies)

Heffling wrote:Is Power Armor a Weapon or Wargear? Does it state Power Armor as equipment under the unit entry for Tactical Marines in Codex: Space Marines, Dark Angels, or Blood Angels? Does it state it under the entry for Grey Hunters?

If not, then by what I'm being told, it doesn't have to be modeled.

What I'm trying to get it is that this issue has two extremes:

1) Every Model must be fully modeled according to the codex for which it is to be used, utilizing official GW models appropriate to that codex.

2) Every model may be proxied.

Neither of these are generally considered acceptable. So, there's a middle ground in the grey area. What I'm wanting to define is the "fine line" that would be drawn between one extreme and the other.

I don't think it can be defined. That's what grey areas are about.

All that can be done is that in cases where there is a complaint, the TO has to make a decision based on the circumstances at the time.

He will have to consider if the complained of army genuinely gives cause for confusion or if the complaint is trivial and motivated by malicious intent.

Power armor is listed as equipment under unit entries.

Kilkrazy wrote:He will have to consider if the complained of army genuinely gives cause for confusion or if the complaint is trivial and motivated by malicious intent.

What if it is neither. Most posters here are probably of at least average intelligence. I'd venture to say those who do well at tournaments are probably above average intelligence. We're not easily confused. If my opponent hands me an army list that says scatter lasers, and he tells me that they're scatter lasers, and they're -all- scatter lasers, I'm really not going to have a senior moment and get confused.

But it's against the rules. If the event says 'weapons must be modeled WYSIWYG' then it's not trivial or malicious to point out that rules are not being followed, even if they're not confusing you.

The grey area is how far does "counts as" go, and does it apply to the cases that it was intended to cover (really cool stuff like genestealer cults and custodes) or is it an excuse to proxy (space marines are now space wolves).

There is no question that Space Marines, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and Chaos Space Marines all have separate tabs on the GW site. Some of those ranges overlap, some do not. You cannot click the Space Wolf tab and find Space Marine Tactical Squads. You cannot click the Space Marine tab and find Space Wolves Pack. Those two boxes are part of different model ranges.

That means that someone who is using Space Marine Tactical Squads with Codex: Space Wolves is either proxying (which is outright disallowed by most TOs), or they are using 'Counts As' to incorporate those models.

My belief, probably not shared by many, is that this is an abuse of the Counts-as rule. Counts-As, as originally devised and described in White Dwarf, is based around the "rule of cool'. If it's cool, do it. But Space Marines as Space Wolves isn't cool. It's kinda blah. It's not doing something clever or unique or even mildly interesting. It's just using parts from the wrong range of models for the codex that is being played. That's proxying, not counts-as, at least in my opinion.


One of the rules from the AWC tournaments that I play in reads:

- All models in a players army MUST be painted to a 3 color minimum standard. Any model not painted to this standard will be removed from play. If this results in an illegal unit (below minimum squad size for example) then the entire unit will be removed. Points spent on these models/units will be lost and considered killed for game scenarios.
Primer is not a color also three dots of color to not constitute paint. This will be subject to the tournament organizers discretion.

(Emphasis mine). You know why that part has to be there? Because some rules-lawyer showed up once with a primer army with dots of colour on them and claimed that he met the letter of the rules.

But part of having rules is maintaining a minimum standard for play, and having that standard improves the experience for all involved. WYSIWYG isn't there because we're too stupid to remember what our opponent's have both told us, and given us on our lists. It's there because it's a minimum standard that improves the quality experience for everyone. I believe that seeing Space Wolves as Space Wolves and not as Space Marines also fits that criteria. I think it improves the quality of the event for the majority of players, possibly at the expense of the few who own Space Marine models and don't want to buy/paint more Space Wolves. I'd like to see more tournaments take this approach, rather than just assuming that any model in power armour is freely interchangeable for any other.

+1. Well said.

How many pieces of flair are required for a SM in PA with CCW, bolter, and BP to be considered a SW? How many blood drops for a BA? If Vulkan isn't green does he still twinlink everything? Can bikes only score if they are painted white? Can only red LRs fly?

in tournament environments, isn't WYSIWYG taken very seriously?

I believe all miniatures have to be fully painted and modeled as well, I would expect to see a vanilla marine army and a blood angels or space wolves codex along with it, although I would expect to see blood angels models or space wolves models painted in other schemes but used as their respective armies.

personally, lets say you want to count a model as having a thunder hammer, then convert it. If you're just playtesting its a different story, if you seriously do want your space marine captain to have something like that then you ought to represent it

the other day my friend bought an elephant from toysrus and called it a squigoth

Dashofpepper wrote:
Drinking != bad behavior
Drinking can cause bad behavior.
Being a TFG can also cause bad behavior.

But drinking and bad behavior don't walk hand in hand. If I were to play against someone offended that I was drinking during our game at a tournament - simply for the fact that I'm imbibing without causation, I'd probably be even more brazen about it because they were being such a prude.

Drinking while being TFG, which is what you'd be in this case = ?

I find it odd that everyone who doesn't think it's appropriate for you to drink during a tournament is a prude but you won't entertain the idea that being intoxicated at an event makes you pretty inconsiderate.

If it were me and we were playing and you were obviously intoxicated, I'd call over the TO and explain calmly and respectfully that I don't want to play someone under the influence (of drugs or alcohol), if I was refused an opportunity to play another opponent and it was an early round, I'd ask for my money back, if it were a late round I'd concede the game, shake your hand, and never, ever return to that event.

That's Orks, that's different. If it was the right size, then hey, Orks might have found a wild elephant, and started riding it around. What do they call it? They call it a Squiggoth, because A: they don't necessarily know better, and B: it might actually be a Squiggoth, one that looks exactly like an elephant through some strange process of convergent evolution.



Really, Orks are just about the only army where you can get away with anything if it looks cool- including modeling them like they're Space Marines, or Deep Sea Divers, or Mad Max, or Steampunk, or, well, you get the picture.

Bunker wrote:

If it were me and we were playing and you were obviously intoxicated, I'd call over the TO and explain calmly and respectfully that I don't want to play someone under the influence (of drugs or alcohol), if I was refused an opportunity to play another opponent and it was an early round, I'd ask for my money back, if it were a late round I'd concede the game, shake your hand, and never, ever return to that event.

Fair enough. Lets be equally inane. Since you're Canadian, I'd explain to the TO that I don't ever want to play someone of French descent.

And before you say "But I'm not French Canadian..." THAT'S THE POINT!

Strangely enough, I get better sportsmanship scores when I'm drinking. =D Correlation is not causation, and in this case there is neither - which is why I'm comfortable saying "Prude." Then again, "Prude" isn't what I'm REALLY thinking, but if I were to post that, I'd end up getting a vacation from Dakka. Quite a few events these days are held in convention centers that have open bars. That's right - three steps over from your gaming table you can buy booze.

I'd shy away from organized 40k.

*edit* And you and your ilk should ease up on the baseless accusations. Spending thousands of dollars to travel to a 40k event across the country + getting too blitzed to play 40k + winning the events does not add up. Being intoxicated doesn't mean that judgment is impaired or that problems arise. It means that they COULD. Just like with people who are not intoxicated.

@WYSIWYG

Personally I have absolutely no problems with count as models as well as proxy models. They must be in the same shape as the original model or close to it though. So if there is physically not a big difference, I dont care. I consider myself alert enough to deal with that situation without confusion.

If I want to play a count as model I consider outside of WYSIWYG I would send a picture to the TO and ask for permission, and bring it to the tournament.
If he does not accept it, I leave it at home of course.

@drinking

We have to distinguish between drinking and being drunk.

Drinking: putting some alcoholic liquid between your teeth down into the stomach.

This is not really a problem, is it?

Being drunk: The result of too much drinking.
This CAN also result in being TFG. It can also result in having more fun.

But you can also be TFG in different ways. (Playing dirty, cheating, being TFG in natural...)

Being TFG has nothing to do with drinking alcohol at all.

-Nazdreg- wrote:

Being TFG has nothing to do with drinking alcohol at all.

This. Which...is why I said what I did. =p

I met you at the at the slaughter in space. I went there to try to get a game in with you and told Hulksmash several times to ask you because you talk so much trash and at the time your knowledge wasent were its at now but you were busy and couldnt find time (understandable considering how far you traveled and you and your wife going to disney and all). So I wnt to meet you to interduce myself and brought my 4 year old daughter. [Redacted by Mod Kilkrazy]

[Please don't drag the thread off topic with personal complaints.]

This must be an American thing surely?

Last tournament i was at was in Warhammer World in Nottingham. Its got a Forgeworld shop, a nice big hall, a bunch of GW offices and the majority of stock WD models on display... pretty much the hub of warhammer in UK, I'm sure i saw them photographing a BatRep there once years ago aswell. Theres also a bar there, Bugmans bar to be precise. Providing you are of age and not totally wrecked... you can take your beer to your table to drink and play. The majority of the people there at least had one drink from what i could tell.

Theres another tournament i may be attending quite soon, theres a bar there aswell.

Polonius wrote:I don't care what a person's been drinking, or what the BAC is. If they're trashed but are fun, polite, and give me a good game, I could give a damn if they were straight edge or tweaking.

Most people aren't as much fun, to sober people, when they are drunk. There are exceptions of course, and lots of people can be reasonably coherent and funcitonal while pretty blitzed.

That sums it up pretty nicely.

I've spoken to Dash while hes been drinking, and he is still fun, polite and gives a good game. From personnal experience with friends, drinking rarely has a negative impact on a game. If your an angry drunk, or clumsy, then you really shouldn't be drinking heavily while playing 40k. But if you can handle your beer and conform to the quote above then there is no problem with it.

From my own experience with playing drunk (or tipsy), i can tell you for a fact you'd prefer me drinking than sober. I'm a heavy smoker, patches irritate me, if i have to stay inside for a prolonged period of time i'll get pissy, i won't become TFG, but i'll be watching that your 6" move isn't 6.1" and get REALLY indecisive about positioning, I'm also quite withdrawn with new people, so i won't be talking much except when needed. Now give me a beer... and i'll become relaxed, i'll talk, i'll joke, i'll become more lax with general gameplay and play faster, forgot to cast hammerhand? Sure go ahead! All in all, a good game had by all.

It seems drinking in the UK while playing is perfectly acceptable, well at least in my local area and at Warhammer World...

Grimgob wrote:I met you at the at the slaughter in space. I went there to try to get a game in with you and told Hulksmash several times to ask you because you talk so much trash and at the time your knowledge wasent were its at now but you were busy and couldnt find time (understandable considering how far you traveled and you and your wife going to disney and all). So I wnt to meet you to interduce myself and brought my 4 year old daughter. You Smelled like wiskey slurred something about how its great to be internet famous and really scared my little girl with your over agressive drunkeness. Then you proceeded to tell evry one in the room when you got a prize that " I told you I would show all you *F*ing California hippies". You were using different FAQs between games. That dosent make it fun for people to be around a drunk competitive jerk and I saw all of this happen in person (go ahead and call me a liar cause other people were there here on Dakka that can colaborate my story.

Ah..I was waiting for you to show up. Since our first interaction on Dakka, when you nerd-raged over my critique of your Orks, flipped out that I wasn't good enough to GIVE you feedback on them, and how dare I not like the personal awesomeness that you had created, which ended up in two pages worth of people telling you to stop being a jerk...and then you went on a personal crusade to slander, lie, libel, and stalk me, got banned for being a jerk, returned and apologized, forgot about apologizing, and returned to your natural state...

Welcome to the thread. You're posting more of the same rubbish you usually make up, its inappropriate, and you really should find another outlet. And that's about all I have to say. =D

I'm not lying. you can ask other people that were there and I've never been banned (you got banned for sending me a very inappropriate PM). Its funny that instead of anwering a direct observation of yourself that other people can verify you set up the sceanerio of our interactions to dismiss what I say with out saying anything about the comment other than he's out to get me. No vendetta, things you say just annoy me and I have the right to express my opinon and state facts (just apperantly not as much as a right as you )."I'll be flying in from eastern North Carolina to teach you hippies how to play 40k!

*edit* My wife objects to me calling anyone a hippie. Therefore, I'd like to rephrase..

I'll be flying in from North Carolina to teach you granola-munching, tree-hugging, hybrid-driving, free-thinking beach bums how to play 40k! " Nope dosent sound like you at all.....

This is a question I’m curious about concerning the vanilla Marine codex and the other four Marine codices (DA, BT, BA, SW) in tournament play that people would generally pay for and travel to. Also assuming the army in question is observing WYSIWYG through thoughtful conversion and the paintjobs are showing genuine effort, and an army list for my opponents keeping/review. The rule of cool being employed.

So is there really a fuss if peoples’ army is mainly from the Vanilla tab of the GW store and they want to play out one of the four variant codices? (Once again, all the wargear is being represented faithfully for the squad chosen). Does it really bug people that my SWs don’t have viking heads or rune chips on their armor or wolf pelts? What if I simply like the way the codex plays, but have my own interpretation of the actual army? Does it bug people that my BAs are green or orange instead of red devoid of the traditional BA blooddrops?

The reason I ask is that I play DAs. I like the standard force set up (as opposed to the Deathwing or Ravenwing setup) that’s usually fielding 50 to 70 marines. That being said, I think the current codex kind of sucks, just IMO, and I rather play out of the vanilla codex (or barring that, BAs). I’ve got the bitz resources to convert anything that I’d put on an army list. Another reason I have, is that I'd like making a successor chapter with my own flair/flavor and I'd like to field either SW or BA.

If I ended up across the table from one of you major posters, would I get grief for having DA robes and a Thunderfire Cannon? For having regular jump packs w/o the wings and a Baal Predator? Or for having copper colored SWs that are clean shaven and peltless?

Dual Face wrote:in tournament environments, isn't WYSIWYG taken very seriously?

I believe all miniatures have to be fully painted and modeled as well, I would expect to see a vanilla marine army and a blood angels or space wolves codex along with it, although I would expect to see blood angels models or space wolves models painted in other schemes but used as their respective armies.

personally, lets say you want to count a model as having a thunder hammer, then convert it. If you're just playtesting its a different story, if you seriously do want your space marine captain to have something like that then you ought to represent it

Not at Ard Boyz.

What you say is true for the majority of players. We like to convert our armies and to play with painted armies. A lot of us also don't care if you play an SM army as SW, BA, DA, BT, as long as we can tell what your army is.

Redbeard wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:He will have to consider if the complained of army genuinely gives cause for confusion or if the complaint is trivial and motivated by malicious intent.

What if it is neither.

....

It doesn't matter. A lot of tournaments examine your army and list before starting. That's the time at which judges can take a view on whether an army is unfair and do something about it.

Once the issue comes up during a game, the TO has to make a decision on the spot. He can penalize the complained of player, or decide there isn't a problem.

Tournaments always have the basic rule that the judge's decision is final. The judge needs to keep the tournament moving on timetable.

WYSIWYG as a rule for a tournament is as good as it is for the main rules, i.e. there are various problems, many of which have been pointed out earlier in the thread.

How exactly did this turn into a thread about Dash drinking alcohol and public drunkeness....

I think when he says drunk, he means buzzed so that hes mellow and not stressed out, which no doubt tourneys he goes to would tend to make you feel

Not really seeing the big deal here, but anyways can we drag this back on topic?

Let's all try and keep the thread on topic!



Still, I like it that grimgob brought his daughter to the slaughter.

Bunker wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:
Drinking != bad behavior
Drinking can cause bad behavior.
Being a TFG can also cause bad behavior.

But drinking and bad behavior don't walk hand in hand. If I were to play against someone offended that I was drinking during our game at a tournament - simply for the fact that I'm imbibing without causation, I'd probably be even more brazen about it because they were being such a prude.

Drinking while being TFG, which is what you'd be in this case = ?

I find it odd that everyone who doesn't think it's appropriate for you to drink during a tournament is a prude but you won't entertain the idea that being intoxicated at an event makes you pretty inconsiderate.

If it were me and we were playing and you were obviously intoxicated, I'd call over the TO and explain calmly and respectfully that I don't want to play someone under the influence (of drugs or alcohol), if I was refused an opportunity to play another opponent and it was an early round, I'd ask for my money back, if it were a late round I'd concede the game, shake your hand, and never, ever return to that event.

No, you don't lose your game and leave the tournament. You make them lose and leave the tournament. You paid good money to play a game, not deal with a drunk.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dashofpepper wrote:

Bunker wrote:

If it were me and we were playing and you were obviously intoxicated, I'd call over the TO and explain calmly and respectfully that I don't want to play someone under the influence (of drugs or alcohol), if I was refused an opportunity to play another opponent and it was an early round, I'd ask for my money back, if it were a late round I'd concede the game, shake your hand, and never, ever return to that event.

Fair enough. Lets be equally inane. Since you're Canadian, I'd explain to the TO that I don't ever want to play someone of French descent.

And before you say "But I'm not French Canadian..." THAT'S THE POINT!

Strangely enough, I get better sportsmanship scores when I'm drinking. =D Correlation is not causation, and in this case there is neither - which is why I'm comfortable saying "Prude." Then again, "Prude" isn't what I'm REALLY thinking, but if I were to post that, I'd end up getting a vacation from Dakka. Quite a few events these days are held in convention centers that have open bars. That's right - three steps over from your gaming table you can buy booze.

I'd shy away from organized 40k.

*edit* And you and your ilk should ease up on the baseless accusations. Spending thousands of dollars to travel to a 40k event across the country + getting too blitzed to play 40k + winning the events does not add up. Being intoxicated doesn't mean that judgment is impaired or that problems arise. It means that they COULD. Just like with people who are not intoxicated.

The money you spend is fething irrelevant to me. If I am playing across from you I PAID and I don't care if you gave yup your first born. I didn't pay to play a drunk. I'd seriously call the cops on your ass.

EDIT: I'll go back to talking about actual WYSWYG now that KK has posted to talk about WYSIWYG.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Bunker wrote:

If it were me and we were playing and you were obviously intoxicated, I'd call over the TO and explain calmly and respectfully that I don't want to play someone under the influence (of drugs or alcohol), if I was refused an opportunity to play another opponent and it was an early round, I'd ask for my money back, if it were a late round I'd concede the game, shake your hand, and never, ever return to that event.

Fair enough. Lets be equally inane. Since you're Canadian, I'd explain to the TO that I don't ever want to play someone of French descent.

And before you say "But I'm not French Canadian..." THAT'S THE POINT!

Strangely enough, I get better sportsmanship scores when I'm drinking. =D Correlation is not causation, and in this case there is neither - which is why I'm comfortable saying "Prude." Then again, "Prude" isn't what I'm REALLY thinking, but if I were to post that, I'd end up getting a vacation from Dakka. Quite a few events these days are held in convention centers that have open bars. That's right - three steps over from your gaming table you can buy booze.

I'd shy away from organized 40k.

*edit* And you and your ilk should ease up on the baseless accusations. Spending thousands of dollars to travel to a 40k event across the country + getting too blitzed to play 40k + winning the events does not add up. Being intoxicated doesn't mean that judgment is impaired or that problems arise. It means that they COULD. Just like with people who are not intoxicated.

Please explain to me what makes your money more valuable than mine. Or your time. Or your enjoyment of the game (and apparently the requirement to consume alcohol in order to do so).

Also explain to me why you need to flame and degrade anyone who has a different opinion than you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dashofpepper wrote:

Welcome to the thread. You're posting more of the same rubbish you usually make up, its inappropriate, and you really should find another outlet. And that's about all I have to say. =D

You aren't a Moderator, stop pretending you are just because it gives you another opportunity to talk down to people.

Bunker wrote:
Also explain to me why you need to flame and degrade anyone who has a different opinion than you.

yea, thats my job!

DOP we'll have to get together a game. You bring the Dark rum, I'll bring the coconut rum, and we'll have a rum off!

Frazzled wrote:
The money you spend is fething irrelevant to me. If I am playing across from you I PAID and I don't care if you gave yup your first born. I didn't pay to play a drunk. I'd seriously call the cops on your ass.

WYSIWYG:



Not acceptable counts as (He probably plays Smurfs too with that red cup!);




Rule of cool acceptable conversion;

Grimbgob: Brad never told me that you wanted to meet me. I remember him telling me before we came to California who he thought was going to be there, and when he mentioned your name, the subject of your thread in the Army List section came up. He said, "I don't know, he's not usually such a douche." After your ridiculous behavior and the subsequent actions on Dakka, I can honestly tell you that I had no interest in meeting you, and I appreciate Brad screening you away; your behavior was intolerable, and...still is. In regard to the hippie comment, that was specifically for Brad. We have a long-standing inside joke about him being a tree-hugging granola munching hippie because he hailed from California. In fact, you can make a couple of assumptions: WIth the present typing as the exception, you can safely assume that anything I say is not directed at you, inclusive of you, or in any way related to you. You can also safely assume that anything I do is not the result of you, your actions, or your decisions. The only time I take notice of you is when you vomit your way into my sphere of attention and clamour for some. I thought I had you on ignore, but apparently don't; a certain little birdie told me that you were taking a vacation from Dakka, so I didn't put you on /ignore. You are malicious, mean-spirited, and evil. Fortunately, you spread pestilence outside my own zone of concern, so I ultimately don't care.



Bunker, Frazzled - the thread has gone far enough off topic, and instead of dragging it down further by engaging - I'm just going to ask you to return to the topic of WYSIWYG.

Bunker: You don't have to be a moderator to expect someone to be polite. Nor do moderators have mystical powers to ask you to be polite. They just have mystical powers to make people disappear when they are not. So please - back on track. There was a tenuous link between WYSIWYG and drinking at events, but whatever that complicated and tenuous link is....its long since broken.

Frazzled: You PAID to play 40k. I'm pretty confident telling you that if you call the police on your opponent at an organized 40k event with an open bar....you're going to be ejected from the event. You don't even have to drink to be belligerent!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*need to add an edit here*

AgeOfEgos wrote:

Frazzled wrote:
The money you spend is fething irrelevant to me. If I am playing across from you I PAID and I don't care if you gave yup your first born. I didn't pay to play a drunk. I'd seriously call the cops on your ass.

WYSIWYG:



Not acceptable counts as (He probably plays Smurfs too with that red cup!);




Rule of cool acceptable conversion;

Age wins again!

Wait no rum off now? Frazzled sad.

Frazzled wrote:
DOP we'll have to get together a game. You bring the Dark rum, I'll bring the coconut rum, and we'll have a rum off!

Actually, that was my offer for the Whiskey Challenge at the Nova Open. Every time a model in your army dies, you take a shot of rum. =D I think my Whiskey Challenge Opponent declined that, and settled it to one shot per phase.

That would have to be by squad or such. I'd be dead by the end of the first turn.