Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Right-On...I am rather new to tournaments well RTT and such. I am a veteran of M:TG but decided i wanted a more adult hobby that would still drain my checking account akin to crack cocaine. That's a great idea and will introduce it in my playing.

All weapons must be modeled. If you converted your tac marines to all be holding storm botlers, and then gave them holstered swords, you're good to go. If you didn't convert them, nope.

Heck, even if the storm bolters are Inquisitor/Dark Heresy/Horus Heresy Era twin-weapon style with over-under barrels, that's fine. Just not bog standard bolters.

Monster Rain wrote:

Heffling wrote:I'm just a slow painter, which is my biggest holdback. It takes me 15 minutes just to do the scab red detailing on one deffgun. Then you have highlights, and all the wires, metal bits, glyphs, etc.

Just get them to the 3 color minimum and based, and then go back and do the details as slowly as you want! That's what I've been doing with my armies for years.

I just died a little, inside.

Dashofpepper wrote: But I'm having nightmares about entire "Counts as" GK armies.

The problem is you're focusing on the things in life that don't really matter. When I was a kid I had hopes and dreams. We all did. But over time, the daily grind gets in the way and you miss the things that really matter, even though they are right in front of you, staring you in the face. I think the next time you should ask yourself "Am I on the right track here?". I don't mean to be rude but... AS A MATTER OF COMMON PRACTICE, IF YOU FEEL THE NEED FOR A DISCLAIMER ABOUT NOT MEANING TO BE RUDE BEFORE A GIVEN STATEMENT, ODDS ARE GOOD THAT THE STATEMENT IS RUDE, AND NOT APPROPRIATE FOR DAKKA DAKKA.

Heffling wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

Heffling wrote:I'm just a slow painter, which is my biggest holdback. It takes me 15 minutes just to do the scab red detailing on one deffgun. Then you have highlights, and all the wires, metal bits, glyphs, etc.

Just get them to the 3 color minimum and based, and then go back and do the details as slowly as you want! That's what I've been doing with my armies for years.

I just died a little, inside.

I don't follow you.

Your models can still be presentably painted without excruciating attention to detail in a relatively short period of time and then retouched over time. I never consider any of my armies "done." There's always something I can find to touch up more, or highlight better etc. Indeed, when the last Space Marine codex came out I had to switch over wargear, convert and re-paint models that I no longer had any use for.

Norserune wrote: Should I have to model each of my GH to have the BP, CC, and Bolter on the model? It seems that I might be required according to some of the responses thus far.

If it's standard equipment then most people don't worry about it. So if hunters have those things listed a base equipment I wouldn't sweat it (I don't play wolves so I don't know what is standard and what isn't).

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote: But I'm having nightmares about entire "Counts as" GK armies.

The problem is you're focusing on the things in life that don't really matter. When I was a kid I had hopes and dreams. We all did. But over time, the daily grind gets in the way and you miss the things that really matter, even though they are right in front of you, staring you in the face. I think the next time you should ask yourself "Am I on the right track here?". I don't mean to be rude but... AS A MATTER OF COMMON PRACTICE, IF YOU FEEL THE NEED FOR A DISCLAIMER ABOUT NOT MEANING TO BE RUDE BEFORE A GIVEN STATEMENT, ODDS ARE GOOD THAT THE STATEMENT IS RUDE, AND NOT APPROPRIATE FOR DAKKA DAKKA.

I hate to say I agree. How big of an issue is this really?

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

Norserune wrote: Should I have to model each of my GH to have the BP, CC, and Bolter on the model? It seems that I might be required according to some of the responses thus far.

If it's standard equipment then most people don't worry about it. So if hunters have those things listed a base equipment I wouldn't sweat it (I don't play wolves so I don't know what is standard and what isn't).

A related question, why are people ok with not having to put BP, CC and Bolters (all standard equipment) on Chaos Marines and Grey Hunters, but to be Grey Knights, they have to have Storm Bolters and Swords?

whitedragon wrote:
A related question, why are people ok with not having to put BP, CC and Bolters (all standard equipment) on Chaos Marines and Grey Hunters, but to be Grey Knights, they have to have Storm Bolters and Swords?

Because it's not a matter of missing some of the weapons, it's a matter of not having ANY of weapons. And then on top of that, all the weapons they do have are wrong. Finally, there are about 5 different melee weapons they could have, and each one is individually configurable. How would that not cause confusion on bolter marines?

whitedragon wrote:
A related question, why are people ok with not having to put BP, CC and Bolters (all standard equipment) on Chaos Marines and Grey Hunters, but to be Grey Knights, they have to have Storm Bolters and Swords?

It's not realistic to expect people to model 3 weapons onto a model with 2 hands. Also, I'm not 100% sure the kits support enough bits for all models to have all 3.

Here's a tangent. My Tyranid army and WYSIWYG; Most of my models are 2nd edition style so don't even compare with modern equivalents, because of this I needed to re-jig a lot of the list to make my models work with the modern edition.

My list;

Winged Hive Tyrant; 2nd edition Hive Tyrant with 2nd edition Blood Thirster wings. The old HT model is significantly smaller then the current one. No one has raised an issue with it yet, since it's a 100% WYSIWYG GW model, but the issue could crop up in larger scale tournys then i usually attend....legal?

Hive Guard; 2nd edition Tyranid Warriors with venom cannons. They used to be my heavy support warriors with multiple heavy weapons, but that kind of squad doesn't exist anymore. They are the only Tyranid warrior models in my army, the only venom cannons in my army, and neither the warriors nor the cannons are post 2nd edition models, so 95% of players probably won't even have seen them before.....legal?

Ymgarl Genestealers; 2nd edition genestealers with exactly the same model as the other 2 dozen genestealers in my army, but are painted a different color...legal?

Tervigon; No GW model exists. I use a Carnifex + the conversion kit from Chapter House...it looks pretty awesome too....legal?

Of the above 4 examples, 2 don't have GW models, so I make due with what i have, 1 is an older edition model with a smaller physical size that I could get called out for modelling for advantage on, and the last one is clearly a case of counts-as. IMO, 3 out of the 4 are okay, and the Hive Guard could get me in trouble at some point. Agree/Disagree?

The big issue is tournies... unless you're running a compeditive army (SW/IG/Ba) you're probably screwed really... If all the lists were balanced people could just collect what they wanted to rather than 'having' to collect a 'tournament' army.

The way I see it is that in a tournament you shouldn't use 'cross-dexing' (e.g. SW represent BA/BT/DA), because you could end up in the 'kid with the empire DE' style scenarios

UNLESS there is no sensible codex available. E.g. a lot of people field Lamenters SM as BA, which is fine, or mechanicus armies as GK Henchmen spam. But no making a khorne berserker army using ork rules, or daemons using guard models or other silly things.

As for smaller details as WYSIWYG, Say a meltavet squad has 4 melta models and 2 plasma models, providing that the opponent's army list clearly states there are no plasma guns in that squad, I can deal with it, of course, if the guy tries to cheat and claims there are plasma in there when the army list says otherwise I will happily complain. So in the 'bright lance scatter laser' scenario mentioned earlier, I wouldn't mind so long as bright lances on wave serpents ONLY proxied scatter lasers, and my opponent a) made me very aware of this and b)didn't try to cheat.

I guess the long story short, is that it's quiet in work and I need something to occupy my time and I'm not to bothered as long as no dirty tricks come into play.

Dashofpepper wrote:
Marine Codices have traditionally been something that players can swap codices between - with a "These are Black Templar today!" switching to "These are Space Wolves today!" with a bit of model switching. I've seen Ultramarine Blood Angels, and completely red space wolves that were painted (and usually played to be Blood Angels).

Funny you say that - in Orlando most people just leave their marines a plastic Gray or bare metal so they don't have to stipulate which type of marine they are (Red, Blue, Black, Light Green, or Dark Green). Sad thing is that they bring it to the tournaments in this fasion.

I'm ok when I see an army that doesn't have the Rhino Doors and front glued on yet because I know that they are ordering forgeworld doors but after 3 months of seeing their stuff in a partially put together state I get irritated and since we are playing True Line of Sight, I always bring that up - I can see through your tank so I guess you get a cover save...

I don't have a problem with a Blood Angel that has a bolter being used as a Space Wolf that has a Bolter, but if you are using blood angels and their equipment as a counts as grey knight army, then I should be allowed to use my Tyranids as Sisters of Battle.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote: But I'm having nightmares about entire "Counts as" GK armies.

The problem is you're focusing on the things in life that don't really matter. When I was a kid I had hopes and dreams. We all did. But over time, the daily grind gets in the way and you miss the things that really matter, even though they are right in front of you, staring you in the face. I think the next time you should ask yourself "Am I on the right track here?".Mod Edit - removing stuff that's already been removed!

What matters to one may not matter to another. You may think that having kids is the greatest thing ever. Dash does not. He has other priorities. Does that mean your priorities are more important than his?

Who's to say your way is more important or the better way to be? Your "right track" could be wrong for someone else. Mod Edit - Please, responding rudely to rudeness doesn't help - use the Mod Alert Button - thanks!

I'm new and still building my own army using the BA codex. I've played my fair share of friendly games where everything is as far from WYSIWYG as you can get. I am looking to eventually try my hand at some local tournaments and making my army WYSIWYG.

but...

I HATE a lot of the BA models. As I have 2 main rules; everyone wears a helmet and no nipple armor . So I have been converting other GW models to fill the rolls. My current project is turning a Emperor's Champion into Mephiston. I've added all the correct weapons and it is being lovingly painted. Would there be an issue with this?

Dashofpepper wrote:

I'm ok when I see an army that doesn't have the Rhino Doors and front glued on yet because I know that they are ordering forgeworld doors but after 3 months of seeing their stuff in a partially put together state I get irritated and since we are playing True Line of Sight, I always bring that up - I can see through your tank so I guess you get a cover save...

I agree with that there -_- I may be new to the warhammer games but I've seen my share of combats and I've witnessed someone with a drop pod who would glue his doors shut so that it blocked LOS. Which led to me asking him how his guys got out of the drop pod in the first place. Well... maybe this isn't similar to that scenario

//edited for unintentional quote in a quote

Carnage43 wrote:

whitedragon wrote:
A related question, why are people ok with not having to put BP, CC and Bolters (all standard equipment) on Chaos Marines and Grey Hunters, but to be Grey Knights, they have to have Storm Bolters and Swords?

It's not realistic to expect people to model 3 weapons onto a model with 2 hands. Also, I'm not 100% sure the kits support enough bits for all models to have all 3.

Some people only model 1 weapon, ie grey hunters with just Bolters, and we just all know they have CCW's and BP's. Going off that premise, most people probably wouldn't mind if a Grey Hunter had a two handed awesome grip on his sword, with no bolter. Heck, several other marine models have this already.

Now, as for a Grey Knight, would someone be offended if he was just modelled with a storm bolter? We can assume he has a Nemesis Force Sword since it's part of his standard gear right? What about if the Grey Knight was just holding a sword, and for whatever reason the owner didn't put the storm bolter on. (It got in the way of the pose, didn't like the big mag sticking out, whtaever). So a Grey Knight holding just a sword or halberd or whatever would be fine right?

Well, would that model also be fine as a grey hunter in a counts as army? Or the other way around, would our Grey Hunter with 1 sword and no bolter be plausible as a Grey Knight counts as?

I'd say so, considering some of the more wacky counts as out there.

All of my CSMs are modeled with at least two of their three weapons.

If a GK player accurately models at least two of their weapons, that sounds fine to me.

Mannahnin wrote:All of my CSMs are modeled with at least two of their three weapons.

I'm very proud of you.

So then 2/3=good!

1/2=bad!

I find it interesting that combi weapons are required to be modeled. But after they fire they are essentialy a bolter. Leaving both players needing to remeber weather it is still a combi weapon.

its odd that peoeple don't mind remembering these details but do mind rembering that all the weapons in one sqaud are the same even if they are not modeled the same. (like mixed heavy weapons counting as rockets, for long fangs).

Also If I had combi melters but modeled as bolters, but then put a big red counter on each stand. Saying to my oppenant, this is a combi wepon, when I fire it I will remove the counter. surly thats easier to follow in game then a modeled combi weapon.

I agree that armies should be wsywig to a point. I don't think combi weapons should be a requirment. I don't want to ruin my models trying to hash together a conversion, when conversion are not my strong point.Also my codex says they can look like anything, so why not a a bolter? I would much rather do what I describe above.

I think that at the end of the day it comes down to a gut feeling, much as the lawyer/rules lawyer in me wants it to be otherwise. The question about 2nd edition tyranids is a great example... I have no idea how i'd feel about them until I see them. Supreme court justice Potter Stewart said

"I shall not today attempt to further define... (hard core pornography)... And perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it."

Be honest with yourself when you build an army- Does that weaponless chimera really look like a tiny Land Raider once you stick three devastator lascannons and some Reaper miniatures gun on the sides with Elmers Glue? Do you really need to call a TO over to complain because one of your opponents assault marine arms fell off last round and now it "ruins your immersion" to be forced to play against a clearly-handicapped One Armed Man as though you were The Fugative?

It's a gentlemans game. Be a gentleman.

Coyotebreaks wrote:I find it interesting that combi weapons are required to be modeled. But after they fire they are essentialy a bolter. Leaving both players needing to remeber weather it is still a combi weapon.

Chapter House Studios makes some nice magnetized combi weapons. Seems like that would help the issue during games.

Personally, as I have stated before I think people should model what they play, I understand it can be expensive, but you should know that coming into this hobby, it's a slow, tedious, and ultimately rewarding process. If you are a flavor of the month player I can only hope you are independently wealthy, but willing to at least toss a semi-decent paint job minus the details. And make sure their models have what is in the list and very few if any counts as. I have a Pedro Cantor model, but He is not a Souldrinker, I have him painted as a Souldrinker and counts as Pedro Cantor but in my army he is Sargeant Luko. I guess he is an Imperial Fist successor chapter same as Souldrinkers are so prior to their Excommunicatis why wouldn't he show up and help out?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

augustus5 wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:All of my CSMs are modeled with at least two of their three weapons.

I'm very proud of you.

So then 2/3=good!

1/2=bad!

Let me expand on that a little. Each two-armed model has at least two of the three weapons (some have all three, with the third slung, sheathed, or holstered). Each squad clearly shows all three weapons- bolters, bolt pistols, and close combat weapons. All optional upgrade models are strictly and accurately modeled with the correct weapons.

I suppose I'd be okay with a couple of models in a GK unit having only the storm bolter, or only the NFW, as long as the unit as a whole clearly displayed all the appropriate weapons, and the individual models were generally properly armed. And, of course, any optional upgrades were clearly and properly modeled.

One difference between grey hunters and CSM, and the grey knights, is that the bolt pistol/CCW either can't be upgraded (for the CSMs) or definitnly need to be modeled (power fist, plasma pistol).

With grey knights, they can freely swap nemesis weapons squad wide, not just as a "special."

Meaning, the "default" gear is still carried by a solid chunk of the squad. With Grey Knights, nobody has to carry default gear.

Are people missing we are talking about WYSIWYG at a tourney? And the only correct answer is to ASK YOUR TO.

If you are using COUNTS AS, PROXIES, OVERMODELING or SOME GUYS HAVE IT modeling, all of those are technically not WYSIWYG... which means....


ASK YOUR TO.

In friendly games, it is ask your opponent.

When I see people saying 'I leave my army grey to help codex swap' it means nothing per this convo as that unpainted army won't be allowed at most events. If you can’t even meet the threshold for participation, I am not sure there is any point to discussing the WYSIWYG validity of tourney play of those armies.

Personally, I find the WYSIWYG space wolf models of last year being the NON-WYSIWYG GK of this year disturbing for tourneys and I hope TOs enforce standards as GK is drastically different enough from the other multi-marine codexes to burden opponents and impact gameplay. At serious events that shouldn't be forced on players.

Lord Scythican wrote:

Coyotebreaks wrote:I find it interesting that combi weapons are required to be modeled. But after they fire they are essentialy a bolter. Leaving both players needing to remeber weather it is still a combi weapon.

Chapter House Studios makes some nice magnetized combi weapons. Seems like that would help the issue during games.

Indeed, although that will help the issue the point i was making is different. What I'm saying is, if I have combi weapons on my models I don't have to remove them and swap them if they fire a shot myself and my opponent have to remember it has happened. And this is OK and yet it not OK for people to have to remember that all the wave serpent weapons are scatter lasers and not bright lances. Which is easier to remember then the combi weapon thing. Just find that interesting.

You really don't understand the difference between following the rules for certain wargear and using the wrong models for weapons?

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote: But I'm having nightmares about entire "Counts as" GK armies.

The problem is you're focusing on the things in life that don't really matter. When I was a kid I had hopes and dreams. We all did. But over time, the daily grind gets in the way and you miss the things that really matter, even though they are right in front of you, staring you in the face. I think the next time you should ask yourself "Am I on the right track here?". I don't mean to be rude but... AS A MATTER OF COMMON PRACTICE, IF YOU FEEL THE NEED FOR A DISCLAIMER ABOUT NOT MEANING TO BE RUDE BEFORE A GIVEN STATEMENT, ODDS ARE GOOD THAT THE STATEMENT IS RUDE, AND NOT APPROPRIATE FOR DAKKA DAKKA.

I'm glad that someone had the common sense to moderate your typing for you so that I can respond without being offended at what was probably rude. =p

You asked: Am I on the right track here?

Lets put this into perspective. I'm not talking about a FLGS tournament here. I travel all around the country to play in Grand Tournaments. I spent $3,000 last year on the SoCal Slaughter in Space *ALONE*.

I'm going to six GTs this year, none local, possibly a 7th depending on what my vacation time looks like in Semptember/November. Every one of them involves travel cost, hotel reservation, food, and most of them involve vacation.

Here's an example: Nova Open 2011

Plane Ticket: $400
Wife's Plane Ticket: $400
Hotel Room for 4 days: $500
Meals and drinks for 4 days: $400
Tournament Entry Fee: $65
Invitational Entry Fee: $50
Weekend Pass: $35
Two Fifths of Captain Morgan: $50

That's $1900. That doesn't include any snacks, taxi, metro cost to get around (like from the airport to the hotel), tips, airport parking costs, laundry at the hotel, another $200 for shipping my army across the country and back...

I expect the Nova Open to cost me $2500 in total to attend. To ATTEND.

Now, I've got a side wager against an opponent for another chunk of cash that I've agreed to not disclose with him. There's a significant chunk of change tied into winning that game. There's another $2,000 on the line for the Nova Invitational. Not to mention the 256 person GT itself...with the potential for validation of some of the theories on tactics I put forth as solid truth here on Dakka being able to be used successfully, batrepped, and spread around to the masses.

Ah, then there's opportunity cost. I'm the Project Manager for Nuclear Valve Construction at my manufacturing company. Opportunity cost of vacation being used in terms of my salary is another significant cost.

Tie all that together, and I have a *HUGE* financial commitment to this event. And this is only one out of SIX+ events I'm going to. And it could all be blown by someone who was too lazy to model their army after what it it really was. Perfect example: I lost a GT game early last year to Vulkan marines. I saw two land raiders that were called Redeemers. I didn't know what that meant in particular, but I saw two lascannons on each side of them. I was like, "Eh...so he'll lascannon a couple orks down if my powerklaws fail. My orks all disembark from their battlewagons (this is before the Deffrolla FAQ) and go charge the land raiders. No hits get through, but I'm not concerned because I'm set up in such a way that he can't get forward and deploy his assault marines even with a tank shock, hed have to turn back. The following turn, he proceeds to lay down two land raiders worth of redeemer flamers on my Orks. I literally said, "Wait, WHAT?!? Those are flamers?!? I thought those were lascannons!" I *NEVER* would have gotten my Orks out of their battlewagon to charge AV14 multi-flamer toting land raiders. I had boarding planks and a KFF.

To be fair, I think he did have redeemer flamers on there, but I had never seen them before. they were about the length of lascannons. I lost a game because of confusion in a model's equipment. That time it was my own fault. A game ending mistake.

What if it had been my opponent's fault? If they had actually been lascannons as "counts as" redeemer flamers? What if you have $3,000 to $10,000 tied up in an event, and your chances of winning are abruptly cut short because of something like this?

Lets take the Eldar example that is *real* here. 8 Wave Serpents armied with twin-linked bright lances. Plays against a BA army that has two land raiders with assault terminators and a couple of dreadnoughts. Eldar player wins the roll to go first and deploys all his vehicles. Tells the BA player that all the wave serpents are armed with scatter lasers. The BA player says, "Ok." He knows what a bright lance looks like. Every wave serpent has a twin-linked pair of them. It has underslung guns too, which he reasonably presumes are the scatter lasers. Seeing no choice to avoid a turn 1 alpha strike against his land raiders, he puts everything into reserve. Turn one drops a pod in with a dreadnought whoagainst the Eldar. The Eldar spend their turn two movement moving fire dragon serpents up to the deployment edge so that the reserves coming in would be shooting at wave serpents with 4+ cover - giving those fire dragons plenty of opportunity to nuke those two land raiders when they come in. BA player gets one land raider on turn 2; it moves on, shoots at a wave serpent and whiffs - at which point fire dragons get out and explode it. The terminators get out and you start rolling scatter lasers against them. 4 Dice, twin-linked.

At this point, the following conversation takes place:

BA: "Hold on, what are you doing? You only get one shot at them."
Eldar: "No, scatter lasers are four shots twin-linked."
BA: "Oh, right - sorry, I thought you were firing the lance at me, I forgot you had the scatter laser too."
Eldar: "Huh? No, I don't have bright lances. Those are scatter lasers."
BA: "What? I thought those were bright lances on top and your scatter lasers were the guns on the bottom under the cockpit?"
Eldar: "No, the bright lances are counting as scatter lasers, and the gun under the cockpit is a shuriken catapult."
BA: "Dude, I reserved my army because I saw that you had 8 twin-linked bright lances to shoot at me."
Eldar: "Dude, I'm sorry but I told you that I had scatter lasers."
BA: "Yeah, you did - I thought those were the guns under the cockpit because the ones on top are obviously bright lances."

So the Eldar player is winning their game because misinformation led to the BA player making tactical decisions based on that information. Not everyone knows your own codex as well as you do, and you cannot burden someone with the expectation that they can track counts as, proxying, etc - ESPECIALLY when large sums of money are on the line. That's why following the rules is CRITICAL.

Lets play nice as this is a bit tangential to the topic eh guys?