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After making all the effort I have made to get all my needed combi-meltas, the correct number of missile launchers, and have all models painted/WYSIWYG before Nova I think I will probably be very unforgiving when it comes to my opponent not doing the same. For instance I put off doing the combi meltas for a year now because small FLGS tournaments in the area do no really care about small things like that. However I feel that if the person wants to compete in GT's then they should be required to go above the norm when it comes to tournament preparation.

augustus5 wrote:I really don't see a problem with the bright lances counting as scatter lasers, IF every bright lance on a wave serpent counted as a scatter laser. This removes any kind of confusion.

Agreed. If all bright lances are scatter lasers then I'd not see an issue. I would see an issue if brightlances were csomewhere else in the army list as brightlances.

As an aside the Eldar heavy weapons sprue is available.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440245a&prodId=prod1290046


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mannahnin wrote:

augustus5 wrote:I really don't see a problem with the bright lances counting as scatter lasers, IF every bright lance on a wave serpent counted as a scatter laser. This removes any kind of confusion.

It doesn't necessarily, though, as Dash's example illustrates. It puts an unreasonable burden on your opponent.

You could just as easily say that a Space Wolf player could use all lascannon models in his army but play them as missile launchers. Or an IG player have all the meltaguns in his vet squads represented by plasma. Sorry, but that's not going to fly.

Ok...and?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dashofpepper wrote:

augustus5 wrote:I really don't see a problem with the bright lances counting as scatter lasers, IF every bright lance on a wave serpent counted as a scatter laser. This removes any kind of confusion.

Where do you stop? Where's the line? If every guardsman on the table is an identically equipped Grey Knight Paladin, it removes any kind of confusion. If every square chimera shaped piece of paper is an identically equipped chimera, there's no confusion there either.

Yep. And?

Frazzled, I'll forgive you because you're relearning how to play 40k.

We're talking about WYSIWYG requirements in an event not being met...not whether it is ok to have non WYSIWYG outside of an event requiring it.

I'm a pretty easy going guy, and I can generally keep track of things like "all long fang weapons are missile launchers." It's when things get more complicated that I start to object.

I also think that the WYSIWYG rule exists for a very good reason. It's not enough to "key" every model to a rule (all flamers being meltas, for example), but to allow for a visual read of the battlefield. Not all players have the same abilities to remember variations from the visual.

While I wouldn't ask for DQ in normal circumstances, I feel that a properly run event should not allow it.

Dashofpepper wrote:Frazzled, I'll forgive you because you're relearning how to play 40k.

We're talking about WYSIWYG requirements in an event not being met...not whether it is ok to have non WYSIWYG outside of an event requiring it.

I hears ya DOP. I am just disagreeing its a big deal in the eldar instance. I've played against such in tournaments and it wasn't an issue.

I agree more on the GK side though especially if the heavy weapons are getting out of hand (if there's a pun there I claim it!). I could see GK minis more being used as regular marines though as they are quite excellent for the tac troopers or modified. I'm suddenly envisioning a mix of halberd bearers and jump pack marines for a tripped out air assault unit.
Curse you marines. So many conversion opportunities, yet so mariney.

I'll play a bottlecap army if it's in the store or in my nerd closet. Probably if it's a local tournament as well. I'm not unreasonable.

If it's at Adepticon, or 'Ard Boyz, (the two major things a year I do), then it BEST be WYSIWYG. It's insulting for the other person not to spend 10 hours the day or two before rushing around getting everything they need to get their army up to code when the rest of us do. I've put up with it before, and come to regret it. I'm going to be an ass about it if it happens again.

Polonius wrote:I'm a pretty easy going guy, and I can generally keep track of things like "all long fang weapons are missile launchers." It's when things get more complicated that I start to object.

I also think that the WYSIWYG rule exists for a very good reason. It's not enough to "key" every model to a rule (all flamers being meltas, for example), but to allow for a visual read of the battlefield. Not all players have the same abilities to remember variations from the visual.

While I wouldn't ask for DQ in normal circumstances, I feel that a properly run event should not allow it.

What he said.

Polonius wrote:While I wouldn't ask for DQ in normal circumstances, I feel that a properly run event should not allow it.

I agree with this completely.

I've never seen anything that was really crazy attempted to get past the WYSIWYG requirements either though. I can understand people being mad about it if they take a lot of pains to get their army looking nice and then having to play against someone who's just using their old models and saying that the weapons on them are actually something else.

daedalus wrote:I'll play a bottlecap army if it's in the store or in my nerd closet. Probably if it's a local tournament as well. I'm not unreasonable.

If it's at Adepticon, or 'Ard Boyz, (the two major things a year I do), then it BEST be WYSIWYG. It's insulting for the other person not to spend 10 hours the day or two before rushing around getting everything they need to get their army up to code when the rest of us do. I've put up with it before, and come to regret it. I'm going to be an ass about it if it happens again.

I'm far more foriving of minor stuff. If somebody make any effort to show combi-meltas, even if they're painted garishly, I'm happy.

As a pretty savvy tournament player, I'm hip to the "standard" builds I see. So when you're tactical squad has melta, combi-melta, multi-melta, it's an easy thing to remember even if not fully WYSIWYG. Ditto even swaps like an ACHB speeder for MM/HF.

When things get murky (these flamers are meltas, but these flamers are actually meltas) or are counter-intuitive (my sergeants all have combi-plasma), then it's harder for me.

As much as I hate being TFG; for a GT I would have to draw the line at this level of cross-dex proxying.
It's one thing to have a good looking converted army that was designed as a proxy army (like Hulksmashes AdMech-Daemon army...it was logical as to what model represented what unit), but to just drop standard models down and call them something else?

I put some thought into my army and make conversions (albeit simple ones) where required (cutting off the Multi-Melta front section and adding an IG Heavy flamer front end to make SternGuard Heavey flamers for example). Obviously their is some leeway, for example if all of your Tac Sgts are kitted the same (combi-melta, Power Weapon) then using a standard AoBR model is good enough...you can tell hes the sarge and their is no reason to distinguish between the different units.
Even if i'm still working on a new model, i'll get at least basecoat, some highlites, and some drybrush/wash on it to make it somewhat presentable on the table.
For the level of play at a GT, I would expect the same respect from my opponent.
If you want to bring a primered counts as army to a game, stay at your FLGS and Ard Boyz.

dkellyj wrote:As much as I hate being TFG; for a GT I would have to draw the line at this level of cross-dex proxying.
It's one thing to have a good looking converted army that was designed as a proxy army (like Hulksmashes AdMech-Daemon army...it was logical as to what model represented what unit), but to just drop standard models down and call them something else?

I put some thought into my army and make conversions (albeit simple ones) where required (cutting off the Multi-Melta front section and adding an IG Heavy flamer front end to make SternGuard Heavey flamers for example). Obviously their is some leeway, for example if all of your Tac Sgts are kitted the same (combi-melta, Power Weapon) then using a standard AoBR model is good enough...you can tell hes the sarge and their is no reason to distinguish between the different units.
Even if i'm still working on a new model, i'll get at least basecoat, some highlites, and some drybrush/wash on it to make it somewhat presentable on the table.
For the level of play at a GT, I would expect the same respect from my opponent.
If you want to bring a primered counts as army to a game, stay at your FLGS and Ard Boyz.

Alternatively I respect this viewpoint as well. My love of converted counts as armies is balanced by my hatred of the infamous GREY ARMY THAT NO PAINT HATH TOUCHED.

Dashofpepper wrote: If every guardsman on the table is an identically equipped Grey Knight Paladin, it removes any kind of confusion. If every square chimera shaped piece of paper is an identically equipped chimera, there's no confusion there either.

You are correct.

So, I'm steadily working on painting and converting for the Nova Open. This thread is of particular interest to me, because I am using some converted models for Lootas. Specifically, I'm running my Shooty Kan Wall with 3 mobs of 15 Lootas.

Part of the problem I have is that the Loota Box, which claims to have 5 lootas/burnas, in reality only has 4, then has either a KMB Mek, a one armed Rokkit Boy, or a one armed Big Shoota boy.

So, I'm converting stuff to use as Lootas, all based on Ork models. So far, I've bought and assembled 4 boxes of lootas, but I simply don't have the time to do the rest as the "real" Loota model, so instead I'm trying to get stuff that will have the Loota feel to it.

Mob 1 is 15 Lootas from the Loota Box.

Mob 2 is 15 Lootas converted from Big Shootas and Shootas. I've extended the barrels by at least 50% over a standard big shoota in order to differenciate them. This, when included with the fact that you can't have a 15 strong mob of big shootas, I feel is sufficient to represent Lootas.

Mob 3 is the one I'm worried about. It's 15 Lootas from a veriety of sources. I am treating all as lootas, but am not entirely comfortable with the mob because there exists a possibility for confusion. The models are:

4 KMB models. I'm using the KMBs from the Loota box along with nob backpacks from the boyz sprue to help differentiate them from KMB Meks. The heads are baldy heads with no mek or cybork like appearence to them. So I'm keeping away from the mek look as much as possible.

7 Rokkit Boyz. Rokkits, Rokkit backpacks, they look like boyz with rokkits.

4 Converted Big Shootas as per Mob 2.

Please know that I've already put over 100 hours into these models, and have at least 50 more hours of painting to go to finish them.

So, if you faced me at the Nova Open, would you have an issue with any of the above mobs? If so, why?

I've already contacted MVBrandt, and his response was (paraphrased) "It doesn't sound like it will be an issue. However, If someone complains, a judge examines your models, and finds difficulty in telling they are lootas, you may be DQ'd."

Considering that between the Wife and I, I will be spending in excess of $1,000 just to go to the Nova Open, you can see why I'm a bit nervious.

I'd stick something non-rokkity on the Rokkit ones, just to differentiate them from Tankbustas. Also, snip off the wire bits and the gas bulb from the KMBs, maybe add a big hose or cable to the back going to the backpack to help show 'big gun' and 'heavy weapon' better. Same with the rokkits, you'll need something more than 'rokkit on stikk', maybe like, well, I don't know.

Best way to do Lootas, in my opinion, is to do them like Fluff says- take some Heavy Weapons from other races (or Orks) and give them to some Boyz.

At the very least, make sure the Rokkits have a second barrel or more rokkits on the 'gun', to signify More Dakka.

Good thread Dash,

What's everyone's thoughts on my using a Farseer (the one with two swords) as Eldrad? Would that be acceptable at a GT, or do I really need to get my hands on the Eldrad model.

Fluffwise she's just meant to be a really really good Farseer, not actually eldrad.

Btw, I spent a good couple of hours at the weekend to magnetising EMLs for my wave serpents, so I am making the effort..

Thanks, Hang

Well, Eldrad is supposed to have a Staff, isn't he?

Which is why I bring it up. Would that be a problem for you? It's a special character as opposed to a squad and Eldrad is/was a farseer.

Would it make difference if I lopped a sword and replaced it with a staff?

Hangfire wrote:Which is why I bring it up. Would that be a problem for you? It's a special character as opposed to a squad and Eldrad is/was a farseer.

Would it make difference if I lopped a sword and replaced it with a staff?

I seriously don't think that would be an issue.

Hangfire wrote:Which is why I bring it up. Would that be a problem for you? It's a special character as opposed to a squad and Eldrad is/was a farseer.

It wouldn't be a problem for me, but someone could conceivably hassle you about it.

Hangfire wrote:Would it make difference if I lopped a sword and replaced it with a staff?

That's probably the path of least resistance.

This is a pretty classic case of WYSIYWG. You have Eldard, and you should represent Eldrad in some way. If you don't like the official model, I think you should at least convert something to make it look:
1) more like eldrad, and
2) less like a stock farseer

The difference between a basic seer and Eldrad is huge, and should be made more apparent.

Mob 3 is the one I'm worried about. It's 15 Lootas from a veriety of sources. I am treating all as lootas, but am not entirely comfortable with the mob because there exists a possibility for confusion. The models are:

4 KMB models. I'm using the KMBs from the Loota box along with nob backpacks from the boyz sprue to help differentiate them from KMB Meks. The heads are baldy heads with no mek or cybork like appearence to them. So I'm keeping away from the mek look as much as possible.

7 Rokkit Boyz. Rokkits, Rokkit backpacks, they look like boyz with rokkits.

4 Converted Big Shootas as per Mob 2.

I am going to have to say 'no' to this squad. KMBs have rules and would need to be converted to not be confused with legal KMBs. Same with the BS. Rokkits have no place in a loota squad conversion or otherwise. A squad with 7 rookits and 4 KMBs looks a lot like a str8 all shooty unit called TANKBUSTAZ and if you were 'counts as' that would be a much better fit for the KMBs mixed with rokkits. Especially since you are making the 3 loota units TOTALLY DIFFERENT, it breaks the number one rule of friendly proxies 'all may this counts as this'.

Please know that I've already put over 100 hours into these models, and have at least 50 more hours of painting to go to finish them.

So, if you faced me at the Nova Open, would you have an issue with any of the above mobs? If so, why?

PERSONALLY, this is how I would do it:
*I would drop the 7 Rokkitboyz and find imperial weapons to swap in. Imperial weapons become deffguns simply via 'counts as' as long as it is not rokkity or flamey. I find Imperial tanks come with so many extra weapon options it is reasonably cheap to buy bitz or trade.
*I have also seen Burnas converted into Deffguns by removing the burna top and replacing the end with an imperial weapon or just a series of shooty stuff. So maybe your burna bitz can make up the difference, even convert some of the backpacks into ammo hoppers
*I would MIX every squad to have different types of deffguns. Sounds like you have 16 Deffguns, 16 BS conversions, 4 Converted KMBs which makes 36 solid Deffguns. By mixing units so they have some BS, some Deffguns and maybe 1-2 convered KMBs. By mixing the squads, then all 3 squads look 'the same' and have a few of the correct weapon to key opponents in to the unit type. I think that is less confusing than a whole unit of correct deffguns and two others of totally different models. A unifying paintscheme goes a long way.

I would say drop the rokkits and cross-polinate your units. I think Burna arms with imperial weapons may be better than rokkits. I think a large group of rokkits in the same unit may scream tankbustaz and opponents may have a legitimate beef.

(I might be able to hook you up with some bitz from my ork bitz box to replace your rokkits or maybe some plasticard replacements.)

I have to agree with the above. Never use weapons from the same range to represent something else from that range.

The easiest way to do makeshift lootas is to use gunz from other armies. You know, looted gunz. Using other ork gunz isn't looting.

Redbeard and Nkelsch,

Thank you for the feedback. The reason I'm putting all of the rokkits and kmb's in the same squad is because, unfortunately for me, these can be taken as legitimate upgrades to loota squads. This pushes the squad well over the maximum of those upgrades, which would be used to differenciate.

I have right now:

16 Lootas - All in process of being pianted
21 Modified Big Shootas - 17 painted, 4 in process
7 Rokkits - all in process
4 KMB - 2 painted, 2 in process

I really like the idea of adding a cable from the backpack to the kmb and modding it a bit. I'm thinking of extending the barrel and removing the "orb" bit, and plugging the cable into the orb.

That would give me, without the rokkits, 41 total lootas. So, one more box, and I'd be gtg.

Thank you for the feedback and ideas. Now, I only have to hope I can get it all done before the Nova Open (and mostly done before Wargamescon).

To Do List:
30ish Lootas
17 Shoota Boyz
20 Grotz and 2 Runtherders
3 Deffkoptas
1 Warbiker Warboss
3 Killa Kans

It's taken me a year to get:
17ish Big Shoota Lootas
17 Shoota Boys w/ 2 Big Shootas and PK/BP Nob
2 Big Shootas and PK/BP Nob
KFF Big Mek
6 Killa Kan

I've also done things that I won't use, like two 30 strong units of choppa/slugga boys and a looted land raider battlewagon.

I'm just a slow painter, which is my biggest holdback. It takes me 15 minutes just to do the scab red detailing on one deffgun. Then you have highlights, and all the wires, metal bits, glyphs, etc.

Heffling wrote:

I'm just a slow painter, which is my biggest holdback. It takes me 15 minutes just to do the scab red detailing on one deffgun. Then you have highlights, and all the wires, metal bits, glyphs, etc.

A wise man once said, "Slow and Steady wins the race." His obituary notes that he had never won one.

I agree with having to follow WYSIWYG, I just started my space wolves not three months ago. Have myself about 750 points looking at me from my desk right now. I've ordered all the missile launchers I need, banners for the wolf standard, meltaguns for the combi/melta and other troops and even this little 750 points army has cost me quite a few. Reading all the responses to the thread does bring a little question to mind concerning the WYSIWYG rule. Should I have to model each of my GH to have the BP, CC, and Bolter on the model? It seems that I might be required according to some of the responses thus far.

A wise man once said, "Slow and Steady wins the race." His obituary notes that he had never won one.

My counter is "Jesus saves, but the Devil is on the Rebound."

I'm a bit more lenient on certain things on WYSIWYG such as not having purity seal, grenades and so on the small stuff, but Proxing models and pieces in a tournament is a no no to me as well as how I run the tournaments in the past and in the near future.

Heffling wrote:I'm just a slow painter, which is my biggest holdback. It takes me 15 minutes just to do the scab red detailing on one deffgun. Then you have highlights, and all the wires, metal bits, glyphs, etc.

Just get them to the 3 color minimum and based, and then go back and do the details as slowly as you want! That's what I've been doing with my armies for years.

Hello,
I think the worst case when asking someone WTF is that is the chance it will be what ever they need it to be, especially if it some wierd looking, non-thought out, bad conversion. Then if you call them on it you as thier opponent become TFG, for simply asking them to better clarify thier models. If your just starting and playing a "grey" (I am talking just assembled, or just primered) army or a loaner army, then hell I understand, especially if your trying to get into the game or experimenting with army selection. THat said if your in that situation you probably should not be in a tourney anyways. I have seen many IG armys with LRs without turets (or side sponsons, yet they have them), or SM armys that apparently were all assault, yet were 2nd and 3rd gen tac marines (talking monopose here). I smiled and asked them what things were and if I did not feel it was a burden for me to keep track, I let it go. However when you see a person just following the flavor of the month army, and saying oh this is that army with this equipment, I just tell them no thanks and point them in the general direction of the register to buy appropriate models.

Regards, TFG,
Carl

With the exception of a couple people, myself included it seems all the players in my area are flavor of the month. The guy who generally wins is one of those guys too...Granted, he knows his tactics, but he plays a little fast and loose for me. I see dice tossed on the board and some go this way and that, I don't even have time to see them. And then of course nobody paints and if they do it's a base-coat. BA and GK of course were the most played armies, and none of them were painted to a standard other than this is red and for the GK player hell they just left them bare...they're grey, RIGHT?! I just spent the past 4 hours kit bashing my Sternguard so they would have the appropriate combi-meltas (commander sprue) combi-flamers (My own design) and the various other accoutrements I desired. Granted, this took a lot of time, but i am proud my armies hold the appropriate gear. i put it there, I painted it. I guess I think more people should take pride in this whole thing. I love the game, but I love putting things together and painting it too. Makes it yours, might even make you value each and everyone of those Tac-marines that got tank shocked by the weaponless ork buggy... WYSIWYG is what i prefer but what I get is a lot less.

Sarpedon_702 wrote:but he plays a little fast and loose for me. I see dice tossed on the board and some go this way and that, I don't even have time to see them.

Stuff like that is easily avoidable - check out the tournament guide in my signature, you might find it quite useful.

In this case, I explain to every opponent at the start of our game that when I roll die, I pick up the misses and leave the hits on the table for inspection. I ask them to do the same - if they ever don't, I remind them firmly that they need to leave hits on the table and pick up their misses. There's a gaggle of stuff that I do that I ask my opponents to do as well to insure that there are no extra dice, extra inches, mis-measurements...stuff like that.

Since I've ironed out my pre-game speech, I've found virtually no issues in any game since then.