New 6th Edition Rumors from Heresy Online (WD psychic power chart pic on pg 25)

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**Red Corsair**

Therion wrote:

Necron armies all the way.

Don't forget that in the rumoured rule set the living metal is light years ahead of fortitude in terms of defensive ability. Living metal gives a saving throw against all of those shaken and stunned results that would soon kill you because they stack into more dangerous results. Fortitude just cancels the effects of shaken and stunned at the start of the GK's own turn -- Only the GK vehicles will never get to use it because they're dead.

I think almost all of the rumoured rule changes specifically improve the Necrons, and they were already very good. Bonuses for jump infantry assault troops, FNP nerf to be in line with RP, glances being much more dangerous to vehicles (I'm not talking about Gauss Flayers but Tesla Destructors -- Who cares if AP- is -1 to damage chart if all you need is a few glances and the target is auto-destroyed since you covered all the results), fast vehicles being harder to hit (and being harder to hit is better than just having more armor now plus Tesla Destructors are mostly twin-linked so you'll see more 6's yourself), moving chargers being before the shooting phase (Scarabs and Wraiths don't have any shooting weapons that they don't get to shoot), vehicles being easier to hit in close combat directly buffs Scarabs, preferred enemy now working for Destroyers and Destroyer Lords, etc. Those flat out skimmer vehicles being hit with 6's with shooting weapons is absolutely hilarious for CCB Overlords who can move flat out all game and inflict the sweep attacks every turn.

Rarely if ever has a new rule set so much buffed an existing army. It only proves that when Ward designed Codex: Necrons he had the new edition rulebook in his hands already.

WAAAAAAAAAAARD!.....we need to pay Shatner to get that in a clip. Now that I have justified Pretre's sig

I am glad that someone else picked up on this. I will be happy to see the meta of necron armies shift from plebeian maintenance bots back to phalanxes of warriors though. Honestly they used to function this way, warriors glancing vehicles to death was pretty much their thing, remember when they had gaus disruptors for CC? lol.

**Mathieu Raymond**

That psyker in the new teaser... could they be linking W40K to Prometheus?

Before anyone flames me: this was a joke.

**pretre**

Mathieu Raymond wrote:That psyker in the new teaser... could they be linking W40K to Prometheus?

Before anyone flames me: this was a joke.

If you have to explain it, it wasn't a good one.

And no.

**Vaktathi**

Therion wrote:
Indeed. Warhammer games have always been about humanity's eternal struggle against Chaos. I think the people who claim 40K isn't mostly about Space Marines are new to the game, or simply delusional.

To be fair, from the cover art of RT, 2E, 3E, and 5E, it looks much more like the Space Marine's struggle against the Orks, than Humanity's struggle against Chaos

**Sigvatr**

Red Corsair wrote:

WAAAAAAAAAAARD!.....we need to pay Shatner to get that in a clip. Now that I have justified Pretre's sig I am glad that someone else picked up on this. I will be happy to see the meta of necron armies shift from plebeian maintenance bots back to phalanxes of warriors though. Honestly they used to function this way, warriors glancing vehicles to death was pretty much their thing, remember when they had gaus disruptors for CC? lol.

We have been trash tier for so long, time to riiiiise and shiiine!

**ColdSadHungry**

Therion wrote:

Necron armies all the way.

Don't forget that in the rumoured rule set the living metal is light years ahead of fortitude in terms of defensive ability. Living metal gives a saving throw against all of those shaken and stunned results that would soon kill you because they stack into more dangerous results. Fortitude just cancels the effects of shaken and stunned at the start of the GK's own turn -- Only the GK vehicles will never get to use it because they're dead.

I think almost all of the rumoured rule changes specifically improve the Necrons, and they were already very good. Bonuses for jump infantry assault troops, FNP nerf to be in line with RP, glances being much more dangerous to vehicles (I'm not talking about Gauss Flayers but Tesla Destructors -- Who cares if AP- is -1 to damage chart if all you need is a few glances and the target is auto-destroyed since you covered all the results), fast vehicles being harder to hit (and being harder to hit is better than just having more armor now plus Tesla Destructors are mostly twin-linked so you'll see more 6's yourself), moving chargers being before the shooting phase (Scarabs and Wraiths don't have any shooting weapons that they don't get to shoot), vehicles being easier to hit in close combat directly buffs Scarabs, preferred enemy now working for Destroyers and Destroyer Lords, etc. Those flat out skimmer vehicles being hit with 6's with shooting weapons is absolutely hilarious for CCB Overlords who can move flat out all game and inflict the sweep attacks every turn.

Rarely if ever has a new rule set so much buffed an existing army. It only proves that when Ward designed Codex: Necrons he had the new edition rulebook in his hands already.

The updated glancing rules made an appearance in the leaked 6th ed book but in there, the glances didn't stack from shooting by the same squad but on a squad by squad basis so there was no glancing to death from just 1 squad firing, rather each squad after the next could up the damage of the glance. Personally I feel that it's more likely to end up that way otherwise most vehicles won't last more than a turn or two against any army that can spam S6+ shooting.

**davethepak**

labmouse42 wrote:
Sidstyler wrote:Honestly I wouldn't have as much of a problem with the background revolving mostly around the Marines, as long as the game rules were balanced so every race was viable to play. What most people have a problem with are Marines being the poster boys, and having the best rules, and often being the cheapest army to collect/play (even with $75 land raiders or $82 storm ravens).
Saying all marine armies have the best rules is simply incorrect. BT and C:SM are at the bottom of the power curve right now. [i]IG, DE, and Necrons all have codex's that are easily better than those 2.

Exquese me? My tau beg to differ greatly with the assertion that Codex space marines are at the bottom of the power curve.

I have to agree 100% that its ok that the game focuses on the Human Heros...its because we are humans ...if this was a tau game, the tau would be the A#1 spot. I could care less about fluff focus, I just want the rules balanced ...

I am hoping some of the "rumored" changes do make it in - as a few of them might just give my beloved xenos a bit of a needed boost.

**ShumaGorath**

davethepak wrote:
labmouse42 wrote:
Sidstyler wrote:Honestly I wouldn't have as much of a problem with the background revolving mostly around the Marines, as long as the game rules were balanced so every race was viable to play. What most people have a problem with are Marines being the poster boys, and having the best rules, and often being the cheapest army to collect/play (even with $75 land raiders or $82 storm ravens).
Saying all marine armies have the best rules is simply incorrect. BT and C:SM are at the bottom of the power curve right now. [i]IG, DE, and Necrons all have codex's that are easily better than those 2.

Exquese me? My tau beg to differ greatly with the assertion that Codex space marines are at the bottom of the power curve.

I have to agree 100% that its ok that the game focuses on the Human Heros...its because we are humans ...if this was a tau game, the tau would be the A#1 spot. I could care less about fluff focus, I just want the rules balanced ...

I am hoping some of the "rumored" changes do make it in - as a few of them might just give my beloved xenos a bit of a needed boost.

I argue in the opposite direction, C:SM is pretty well bottom tier. Not tau bad, but definitely bottom rung. Black templars however have some pretty tier one builds with tank hunting missile spam since they get cyclones and typhoons cheap and can double up in 5 man term squads with tank hunter. With sixth the army is going to become pretty amazing considering 100% of it's shooting will be improved with preferred enemy.

**davethepak**

ShumaGorath wrote:
davethepak wrote:
labmouse42 wrote:
Sidstyler wrote:Honestly I wouldn't have as much of a problem with the background revolving mostly around the Marines, as long as the game rules were balanced so every race was viable to play. What most people have a problem with are Marines being the poster boys, and having the best rules, and often being the cheapest army to collect/play (even with $75 land raiders or $82 storm ravens).
Saying all marine armies have the best rules is simply incorrect. BT and C:SM are at the bottom of the power curve right now. IG, DE, and Necrons all have codex's that are easily better than those 2.

Exquese me? My tau beg to differ greatly with the assertion that Codex space marines are at the bottom of the power curve.

I have to agree 100% that its ok that the game focuses on the Human Heros...its because we are humans ...if this was a tau game, the tau would be the A#1 spot. I could care less about fluff focus, I just want the rules balanced ...

I am hoping some of the "rumored" changes do make it in - as a few of them might just give my beloved xenos a bit of a needed boost.

I argue in the opposite direction, C:SM is pretty well bottom tier. Not tau bad, but definitely bottom rung. Black templars however have some pretty tier one builds with tank hunting missile spam since they get cyclones and typhoons cheap and can double up in 5 man term squads with tank hunter. With sixth the army is going to become pretty amazing considering 100% of it's shooting will be improved with preferred enemy[u].

I really hate to break this to you, but a really close look at the vow on page 25 says...."[i]IN CLOSE COMBAT..." for preferred enemy. Yeah, sad day. :( My other BT buddies were fairly upset at this too...

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

In all honesty, I couldn't give two hoots for allies. It was magic that made me walk away from 8th edition fantasy, and if they wreck this new version of 40k, then GW will probably lose more players to FOW or other games.

I'm not against psychic powers on principle, quite the opposite, but it should be used as a tactical aid, and not as something that can destroy a unit. I can buy a battlecannon shell destroying a unit through casulties and failed morale, but not two 6s a la fantasy.

Fingers crossed for everybody.

**Morathi's Darkest Sin**

Well with my planned Dark Angels army being dropped, I was wondering what I was going to do with the two sniper Scout units I'd already picked up.

Looks like my Guard will have Astartes watching over them if this allies confirmation is accurate.

**ShumaGorath**

davethepak wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:
davethepak wrote:
labmouse42 wrote:
Sidstyler wrote:Honestly I wouldn't have as much of a problem with the background revolving mostly around the Marines, as long as the game rules were balanced so every race was viable to play. What most people have a problem with are Marines being the poster boys, and having the best rules, and often being the cheapest army to collect/play (even with $75 land raiders or $82 storm ravens).
Saying all marine armies have the best rules is simply incorrect. BT and C:SM are at the bottom of the power curve right now. IG, DE, and Necrons all have codex's that are easily better than those 2.

Exquese me? My tau beg to differ greatly with the assertion that Codex space marines are at the bottom of the power curve.

I have to agree 100% that its ok that the game focuses on the Human Heros...its because we are humans ...if this was a tau game, the tau would be the A#1 spot. I could care less about fluff focus, I just want the rules balanced ...

I am hoping some of the "rumored" changes do make it in - as a few of them might just give my beloved xenos a bit of a needed boost.

I argue in the opposite direction, C:SM is pretty well bottom tier. Not tau bad, but definitely bottom rung. Black templars however have some pretty tier one builds with tank hunting missile spam since they get cyclones and typhoons cheap and can double up in 5 man term squads with tank hunter. With sixth the army is going to become pretty amazing considering 100% of it's shooting will be improved with preferred enemy[u].

I really hate to break this to you, but a really close look at the vow on page 25 says...."[i]IN CLOSE COMBAT..." for preferred enemy. Yeah, sad day. :( My other BT buddies were fairly upset at this too...

That is disappointing though as someone who doesn't play templars it's also somewhat of a relief.

**Kid_Kyoto**

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Well with my planned Dark Angels army being dropped, I was wondering what I was going to do with the two sniper Scout units I'd already picked up.

Looks like my Guard will have Astartes watching over them if this allies confirmation is accurate.

And I'll reconsider that Arbies IG army if I can now bring in =I= henchmen to fill in some of the missing units.

**H.B.M.C.**

Chaos can take Daemons again!

And I can’t believe I had to type that...

**Therion**

H.B.M.C. wrote:Chaos can take Daemons again!

It's so Games Workshop-like games design if you think about it. No need to balance anything anymore if everyone can take everything. Well not everyone of course. Chaos gets one ally, Necrons and Eldar and Dark Eldar and Tau and Nids and Orks get zip and the Imperium allies with half the armies in the game. Now that I think of it maybe they're consolidating all the Imperium books to 'Codex Imperium' this way.

Allies are the easiest way to destroy an entire game system. Compared to this none of the random this random that or crazy psychic powers seem bad. Once allies are in, people are truly then just playing with their toy soldiers instead of playing an actual game that makes any sense whatsoever.

Before someone says there's probably some restrictions to allies -- It's irrelevant, unless the restriction is 'with your opponent's consent'. Even if you have to take a HQ and 2 troops from each book (which I doubt) it'll create a whole new tier 1 of armies. In case you were wondering they're all Imperium combinations, GK+IG being one of the most overpowered ones from dual armies. It's crazy because whenever an army has one 'broken good' unit the situation might still be manageable unless that unit can be spammed for more than 3 slots. Allies allow players to pick the broken units from multiple army books and put them together and then even the last resemblance of balance disappears.

**ShumaGorath**

Therion wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:Chaos can take Daemons again!

It's so Games Workshop-like games design if you think about it. No need to balance anything anymore if everyone can take everything. Well not everyone of course. Chaos gets one ally, Necrons and Eldar and Dark Eldar and Tau and Nids and Orks get zip and the Imperium allies with half the armies in the game. Now that I think of it maybe they're consolidating all the Imperium books to 'Codex Imperium' this way.

Allies are the easiest way to destroy an entire game system. Compared to this none of the random this random that or crazy psychic powers seem bad. Once allies are in, people are truly then just playing with their toy soldiers instead of playing an actual game that makes any sense whatsoever.

Before someone says there's probably some restrictions to allies -- It's irrelevant, unless the restriction is 'with your opponent's consent'. Even if you have to take a HQ and 2 troops from each book (which I doubt) it'll create a whole new tier 1 of armies. In case you were wondering they're all Imperium combinations.

I thought the rumor said that allies were only a thing in team games and they were just a guideline to that type of play. If not this would certainly be one of the stakes in the heart of 40k, there would be no way to balance this system at all. Here's hoping they aren't stupid enough to throw away their franchise!

**H.B.M.C.**

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you Therion – allies are a tremendous way to destroy any notion of balance – but looking at 40K’s most recent history with allies, the Daemonhunters and Witch Hunter Codices, I don’t recall either of them breaking the game?

**Harriticus**

I'm fine with allies as long as it doesn't creep into and ruin fluff. Like that god-awful "Tau are an Ultramarines protectorate" rumor we got a while ago.

**ShumaGorath**

H.B.M.C. wrote:I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you Therion – allies are a tremendous way to destroy any notion of balance – but looking at 40K’s most recent history with allies, the Daemonhunters and Witch Hunter Codices, I don’t recall either of them breaking the game?

You never had your deep striking army shot at preemptively by nine Leman russ battletanks as it landed because there was a 45 point model hiding in a chimera apparently. That said, that's about the extent of the broken before. The old allies system had the fact that inqisitorial and demon hunting units were pretty awful which kept it balanced. The moment every army can have psyfledreads or whatever the powercore equivalent is in the next meta is the moment you're going to start seeing it happen. That's when the system breaks down.

**Therion**

H.B.M.C. wrote:I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you Therion – allies are a tremendous way to destroy any notion of balance – but looking at 40K’s most recent history with allies, the Daemonhunters and Witch Hunter Codices, I don’t recall either of them breaking the game?

I do recall those books being completely idiotic. Taking allies from either book was disallowed from basically every European tournament for the entire duration of those books, because all it did was allow perfectly competitive armies like IG to take a psychic hood and some other nonsense that they didn't need and weren't designed to need. The fact just was that those books didn't have much other useful stuff to grab. I'm pretty sure you understand the notion that armies have some weaker force organisation slots and are supposed to have some inherent weaknessess. Vendettas are the best fast attack choice in the entire game for example, and allowing armies that have garbage fast attack to use them just breaks the balance. Same goes for stuff like Purifiers which are the single most undercosted infantry unit in the game. Why should Grey Knights suddenly have access to Vendettas?

The sad thing is that I'm sure there's hundreds of players out there who would honestly use these rules just to make funny or fluffy armies, but allowing this garbage would be a killing blow to the tournament scene. That's why it'll never be allowed in any form of course even if the rulebook has it, but that won't stop me from being pissed off about the fact that GW forces active players to house rule the game just so that it's even remotely playable.

**H.B.M.C.**

@Shummy:

Admittedly no, but then again I was the guy with an Inquisitorial army, not the other way around, and any time I did out-of-phase shooting it was my Kyoto-Pattern Inquisitorial Fire Team (1 Psycannon, 2 Heavy Bolters, 1 Plasma Cannon + 1 Re-Roll) that did the shooting.

There was the Liber Heresius. That was fairly easy to abuse.

**Davor**

Therion wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:Chaos can take Daemons again!

It's so Games Workshop-like games design if you think about it. No need to balance anything anymore if everyone can take everything. Well not everyone of course. Chaos gets one ally, Necrons and Eldar and Dark Eldar and Tau and Nids and Orks get zip and the Imperium allies with half the armies in the game. Now that I think of it maybe they're consolidating all the Imperium books to 'Codex Imperium' this way.

Allies are the easiest way to destroy an entire game system. Compared to this none of the random this random that or crazy psychic powers seem bad. Once allies are in, people are truly then just playing with their toy soldiers instead of playing an actual game that makes any sense whatsoever.

Before someone says there's probably some restrictions to allies -- It's irrelevant, unless the restriction is 'with your opponent's consent'. Even if you have to take a HQ and 2 troops from each book (which I doubt) it'll create a whole new tier 1 of armies. In case you were wondering they're all Imperium combinations, GK+IG being one of the most overpowered ones from dual armies. It's crazy because whenever an army has one 'broken good' unit the situation might still be manageable unless that unit can be spammed for more than 3 slots. Allies allow players to pick the broken units from multiple army books and put them together and then even the last resemblance of balance disappears.

Uh are you forgetting that Necrons can team up with Blood Angels? And if we go by rumours the Tau will ally up with Ultra Marines

**Therion**

Uh are you forgetting that Necrons can team up with Blood Angels? And if we go by rumours the Tau will ally up with Ultra Marines

Oh yeah. Sanguinary Priests on jump packs keeping their best buddy Wraiths alive and kicking. Mephiston hops on the bandwagon as well just so that the Necrons can join the PSYCHIC DEVASTATION! I'm so excited.

**ShumaGorath**

Therion wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you Therion – allies are a tremendous way to destroy any notion of balance – but looking at 40K’s most recent history with allies, the Daemonhunters and Witch Hunter Codices, I don’t recall either of them breaking the game?

I do recall those books being completely idiotic. Taking allies from either book was disallowed from basically every European tournament for the entire duration of those books, because all it did was allow perfectly competitive armies like IG to take a psychic hood and some other nonsense that they didn't need and weren't designed to need. The fact just was that those books didn't have much other useful stuff to grab. I'm pretty sure you understand the notion that armies have some weaker force organisation slots and are supposed to have some inherent weaknessess. Vendettas are the best fast attack choice in the entire game for example, and allowing armies that have garbage fast attack to use them just breaks the balance. Same goes for stuff like Purifiers which are the single most undercosted infantry unit in the game. Why should Grey Knights suddenly have access to Vendettas?

The sad thing is that I'm sure there's hundreds of players out there who would honestly use these rules just to make funny or fluffy armies, but allowing this garbage would be a killing blow to the tournament scene. That's why it'll never be allowed in any form of course even if the rulebook has it, but that won't stop me from being pissed off about the fact that GW forces active players to house rule the game just so that it's even remotely playable.

I agree with most of what you're saying though I disagree about the "intention" of any of the design flaws. Codex choices that are weak and underutilized are such due to bad codex design, not because of intentionally "weak" assets giving an army "flavor".

**Therion**

Codex choices that are weak and underutilized are such due to bad codex design, not because of intentionally "weak" assets giving an army "flavor".

I meant it just happens that some force organisation slots are weaker every single time, and that in addition to that the books need some inherent weaknessess. If your army is one of the strongest shooty armies, it's probably not intended to be the best assault army in the same time. The armies are supposed to have different strengths and weaknessess (diversity). Otherwise why have more than one army in the game altogether? The alliance rules basically remove a lot of armies from the game as the only remaining armies are 'Imperium' and a couple of Xenos punching bags.

**labmouse42**

davethepak wrote:
labmouse42 wrote: BT and C:SM are at the bottom of the power curve right now. [i]IG, DE, and Necrons all have codex's that are easily better than those 2.
Exquese me? My tau beg to differ greatly with the assertion that Codex space marines are at the bottom of the power curve.

Curve indicates there is more room for multiple bottom tier armies. Some can even be lower on the curve. Don't worry, there is a spot there for the Tau too

Automatically Appended Next Post:

ShumaGorath wrote:That is disappointing though as someone who doesn't play templars it's also somewhat of a relief.

Sadly, if I remember correctly SW chaplins give a flat out preferred enemy vs. one type of your choice.

Stick one in with your double PG GH squad and your rerolling missed 'to hits'. I wonder how 'HOT' that would get?

**Kid_Kyoto**

H.B.M.C. wrote:@Shummy:

Admittedly no, but then again I was the guy with an Inquisitorial army, not the other way around, and any time I did out-of-phase shooting it was my Kyoto-Pattern Inquisitorial Fire Team (1 Psycannon, 2 Heavy Bolters, 1 Plasma Cannon + 1 Re-Roll) that did the shooting.

There was the Liber Heresius. That was fairly easy to abuse.

Ah the old Kyoto pattern fire team... my moment of glory.

I still have a half dozen psycannon inquisitors on the shelf.

DAMN YOU WARD!

**ForgeMarine**

I havent sorted thru all of the post yet, however last I read there were going to be magic cards similiar to Fantasy. Any thoughts to how this will impact characters such as Mephiston? Any Thoughts? Thanks

**Carnage43**

ForgeMarine wrote:I havent sorted thru all of the post yet, however last I read there were going to be magic cards similiar to Fantasy. Any thoughts to how this will impact characters such as Mephiston? Any Thoughts? Thanks

The "card" portion is largely irrelevant, they are basically printed off versions of what you will find in the rule book from what I understand. From what I've seen/heard there will be 35 spells spread across 5 schools. I imagine the schools will be sorted into various categories,

Battle field control (+to reserve rolls, negative to enemy's, increased cover saves, "the Gate", Lash of slaanesh..etc)
Personal buffs (Sanguine sword, Unleashed rage, quickening, wings of sanguinius, hammer-hand, might of heroes, leech life...etc)
Army buffs (Fortune, Catalyst, sanctuary, shrouding, force dome/shield, something to grant FC)
Offensive (Blood boil, avenger, warp rift, jaws of the world wolf, doombolt, smite, vortex of doom, lightning, eldrich storm)
Debuffs (Fear of the darkness, Doom, Paroxym)

Of course they could play the old race spell schools; Eldar, Space Marines, Orks, Tyranids and "Misc" or imperial guard. Hell, the spells could be entirely new, and in addition or instead of current spells.

**Davor**

They already have psychic cards you can download. At least for Tyranids. So this is really nothing new except that they are charging us for it now.