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I want naked minimum marines vs naked minimum cultists. Pitted against things that clear chaff, so autoguns and boltgun equivalents.

 vaklor4 wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
For an objective based match (with progressive scoring) for a World Eaters army, is there any place at all for taking stock Marines as troop choices? Or is it better off to just go purely for Berzerkers in Rhinos, and Cultists on foot? Now that the difference between Cultists and Marines for an MSU is a mere 15 points, is there that big of a difference still? And i'm going to preface this with the fact that I probably wont be running a giant blob. MSU cultists only.

It's a great question. I'd think having more wounds would be more valuable, therefore the Cultists.

However, does it have to be just troops? The cost difference between CSM and Chosen isn't that big either...

Yeah, very specifically troop choice, for detachment reasons. The more wounds IS fantastic, but I gotta wonder what the overall math is with the +1 toughness and 3+ save. That's an incredibly higher chance of shrugging off wounds and resisting AP, and the bracket of 3-4 toughness effects a /lot/ of guns in the game.

You're right, CSMs are tougher. That matters against small arms fire, the Marines can last a lot longer. If you're playing against infantry based lists, they are going to do better.

But right now the meta belongs to Knights. Most of the lists I play against have Knights or the weapons to kill Knights. In general, this means lots of shots with a negative AP modifier.

Both CSMs and Cultists are going to go down to that. The question to as is would you rather have 5 CSMs with a 5+ save (after the AP modifier) or 10 Cultists with no save? In practical terms, this is the difference between your opponent needing to commit one or two units to shooting at that pesky scoring unit. All you need is one Cultist to survive to claim an uncontested objective.

8th edition undervalues offense and overvalues saves. That's why Terminators cost so much even though they are less effective that Noise Marines. That's why Shield Captains are so hit-and-miss, their incredible saves can be offset by weight of fire. For right now, if you are making a choice between comparable units, side with the one that makes you pay the least for saving throws.

Another way to think about it: max sized CSM and Cultist units perform similar roles. You trade +1 T and 3+ saves for +20 wounds and Tide of Traitors. The only way the CSMs win out is if your opponent's army consists of AP 0 weapons, since those saves would have to matter. Do you really want to count on your opponent stocking up on those kinds of guns right now?

I'm trying to think of what is likely to be deleting your troops regularly. I guess I'd be interested in comparing cultists to marines surviving things like kastelan robots, leman Russ punisher, kheles contemptors.
If you want to keep it simple I guess, bolters, lasguns, heavy Bolters, assault cannons. They're the basic anti infantry profiles you come across...

The things killing your infantry should be all the incidental weapons that arent pointed at better targets. Both CSM and cultists will just get deleted if anything actually pays attention to them, the question is which one will last longer when they catch stray small-arms fire.

I'm excited to try out dual CCW/soulburner contemptors in dreadclaws using renegade trait.

14+d6" advance movement T1 from the dreadclaw, then T2 disembark 3" + 9" movement from the contemptor, and it can advance and charge if need be, so 12+d6" and still charge and shoot the soulburners is pretty sweet.

I've yet to try my dreadclaw for transporting a dread. I just wrote it off after the Termite came out, which just ate it's lunch as far as infantry assault transports go.
Sounds like it'd be a good idea, because my contemptors usually die before getting to combat, even with renegade advances. But once they can get that 4++ and start eating models, they're real happy.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
For an objective based match (with progressive scoring) for a World Eaters army, is there any place at all for taking stock Marines as troop choices? Or is it better off to just go purely for Berzerkers in Rhinos, and Cultists on foot? Now that the difference between Cultists and Marines for an MSU is a mere 15 points, is there that big of a difference still? And i'm going to preface this with the fact that I probably wont be running a giant blob. MSU cultists only.

It's a great question. I'd think having more wounds would be more valuable, therefore the Cultists.

However, does it have to be just troops? The cost difference between CSM and Chosen isn't that big either...

Yeah, very specifically troop choice, for detachment reasons. The more wounds IS fantastic, but I gotta wonder what the overall math is with the +1 toughness and 3+ save. That's an incredibly higher chance of shrugging off wounds and resisting AP, and the bracket of 3-4 toughness effects a /lot/ of guns in the game.

You're right, CSMs are tougher. That matters against small arms fire, the Marines can last a lot longer. If you're playing against infantry based lists, they are going to do better.

But right now the meta belongs to Knights. Most of the lists I play against have Knights or the weapons to kill Knights. In general, this means lots of shots with a negative AP modifier.

Both CSMs and Cultists are going to go down to that. The question to as is would you rather have 5 CSMs with a 5+ save (after the AP modifier) or 10 Cultists with no save? In practical terms, this is the difference between your opponent needing to commit one or two units to shooting at that pesky scoring unit. All you need is one Cultist to survive to claim an uncontested objective.

8th edition undervalues offense and overvalues saves. That's why Terminators cost so much even though they are less effective that Noise Marines. That's why Shield Captains are so hit-and-miss, their incredible saves can be offset by weight of fire. For right now, if you are making a choice between comparable units, side with the one that makes you pay the least for saving throws.

Another way to think about it: max sized CSM and Cultist units perform similar roles. You trade +1 T and 3+ saves for +20 wounds and Tide of Traitors. The only way the CSMs win out is if your opponent's army consists of AP 0 weapons, since those saves would have to matter. Do you really want to count on your opponent stocking up on those kinds of guns right now?

In cover the Cultists are durable enough. The point of the matter is Cultists matter more for offense than the regular Marines for the price. That's WAY more important.

The other issue in saying "oh a 5-strong CSM squad is only 15pts more" is that you don't stop there. You give them a plasma gun, or an autocannon, or a lascannon and your investment just went up to almost double what you were paying for 10-cultists. Yes, 5-CSM with a lascannon are going to do more than 5-CSM without, but they're also going to become a target, and it doesn't take much to knock them out. Cultists might have gone up, but you can still take 10-strong units and dump them on objectives and they get ignored because they're not much of a threat. Unless your opponent wants to deny you an objective (because you've drawn a Defect Objective X card, perhaps), they don't attract much notice. 5-CSM plinking at enemy vehicles with their lascannon, that might attract attention.

 McGibs wrote:
I've yet to try my dreadclaw for transporting a dread. I just wrote it off after the Termite came out, which just ate it's lunch as far as infantry assault transports go.
Sounds like it'd be a good idea, because my contemptors usually die before getting to combat, even with renegade advances. But once they can get that 4++ and start eating models, they're real happy.

I used it once, it failed its charge after DS and so did the Contemptor and the Terminator Sorc that dropped with it. Contemptor took 4 wounds off his Baal pred and then he blew up all 3 of my DS on his turn. Sad. I wanted it to be effective but the unreliable charge after DS just wasn't really worth those points to me. I still like the combo and almost started them on the field to warptime them, should have.

So I have be thinking about a contemptor dreadnought and a Leviathan. I’m only using BattleScribe so not 100% sure about points cost.

The leviathan is a better choice but I can take two contemptors which makes it a better choice in my opinion.

Just want everyone’s opinion on the matter before I make an order.

Dactylartha wrote:

 McGibs wrote:
I've yet to try my dreadclaw for transporting a dread. I just wrote it off after the Termite came out, which just ate it's lunch as far as infantry assault transports go.
Sounds like it'd be a good idea, because my contemptors usually die before getting to combat, even with renegade advances. But once they can get that 4++ and start eating models, they're real happy.

I used it once, it failed its charge after DS and so did the Contemptor and the Terminator Sorc that dropped with it. Contemptor took 4 wounds off his Baal pred and then he blew up all 3 of my DS on his turn. Sad. I wanted it to be effective but the unreliable charge after DS just wasn't really worth those points to me. I still like the combo and almost started them on the field to warptime them, should have.

Yeah, I would start them on the field for sure. Both the claw and the dread (ha) are fast enough to net a turn two charge, and my opponent has to go through the claw to get the tasty dread inside.

So I have be thinking about a contemptor dreadnought and a Leviathan. I’m only using BattleScribe so not 100% sure about points cost.

The leviathan is a better choice but I can take two contemptors which makes it a better choice in my opinion.

Just want everyone’s opinion on the matter before I make an order.

Personally I like Contemptors a lot more then Leviathans. Their chainfist is a flat 4 damage and will eff-stuff-up, but they can also carry pretty good guns if you want to go that route, and they got a lot cheaper in CA. Chaos Leviathans aren't nearly as stupid as loyalist ones, as they dont get 4++ all the time, less shots than storm arrays, and don't have the same wombo combos (like that warlord trait that adds extra AP on 6's).

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
In cover the Cultists are durable enough. The point of the matter is Cultists matter more for offense than the regular Marines for the price. That's WAY more important.

Yeah. Offense is undervalued and defense is overvalued in 8th edition.

But the OP had a specific context in mind: in an objective mission with progressive scoring, which is the better MSU unit.

I personally wouldn't be hoping for much out of either unit except that it can stand near an objective for a round or two to get some points. The fact Cultists have more wounds make them more suited to this role.

In a kill points game, CSM are better simply because they can take a Lascannon. That gun gets the most work done for me in 8th edition.

But I don't know. 40k is infested with Imperial Knights right now and I'm not putting much into infantry that can't damage armor. Many people have commented on the mathematical possibility of Cultists / Berzerkers versus Knights, but it doesn't feel practical in most games. It's possible I'm not thinking through other possibilities.

I'm totally new to Chaos Marines, and am looking for a bit of advice.

Currently adding them to my Renegades and Heretics army (which is v. static gunline-y) as a hammer to the renegades' anvil (mortar spam and basilisks with bubblewrap bodies)
As far as I can tell, plasma is still king of 8th ed, so should I just try to cram a lot of plasma into everything?

I've got a hellbrute (no arms yet)
the plastic terminator lord/sorcerer
FW's Necrosius
5 raptor/warptalons (undecided)
27 marines (no arms yet)
5 terminators (no arms yet)

I'd ideally like to play them a bit fast and aggressive, to take the heat off my artillery, and as like a fun counterpart to my otherwise static trench rats. For a bit more context, I'd also like them nurgle themed, so if there are any cool synergies with that that'd be cool to hear about (not keen on death guard stuff tho, just bc I'm super unfamiliar with all their new stuff, and prefer the older chaos marines' style).
Cheers!

 techsoldaten wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
In cover the Cultists are durable enough. The point of the matter is Cultists matter more for offense than the regular Marines for the price. That's WAY more important.

Yeah. Offense is undervalued and defense is overvalued in 8th edition.

But the OP had a specific context in mind: in an objective mission with progressive scoring, which is the better MSU unit.

I personally wouldn't be hoping for much out of either unit except that it can stand near an objective for a round or two to get some points. The fact Cultists have more wounds make them more suited to this role.

In a kill points game, CSM are better simply because they can take a Lascannon. That gun gets the most work done for me in 8th edition.

But I don't know. 40k is infested with Imperial Knights right now and I'm not putting much into infantry that can't damage armor. Many people have commented on the mathematical possibility of Cultists / Berzerkers versus Knights, but it doesn't feel practical in most games. It's possible I'm not thinking through other possibilities.

Eh, I disagree. That's 85 points for a Lascannon basically.

That's terrible for a kill point game.

 techsoldaten wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
In cover the Cultists are durable enough. The point of the matter is Cultists matter more for offense than the regular Marines for the price. That's WAY more important.

Yeah. Offense is undervalued and defense is overvalued in 8th edition.

But the OP had a specific context in mind: in an objective mission with progressive scoring, which is the better MSU unit.

I personally wouldn't be hoping for much out of either unit except that it can stand near an objective for a round or two to get some points. The fact Cultists have more wounds make them more suited to this role.

In a kill points game, CSM are better simply because they can take a Lascannon. That gun gets the most work done for me in 8th edition.

But I don't know. 40k is infested with Imperial Knights right now and I'm not putting much into infantry that can't damage armor. Many people have commented on the mathematical possibility of Cultists / Berzerkers versus Knights, but it doesn't feel practical in most games. It's possible I'm not thinking through other possibilities.

I agree, there is more to a unit that just how well it maths, practical application gets missed by a lot of people. You aren't exactly talking Harlie Jetbikes here.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
In cover the Cultists are durable enough. The point of the matter is Cultists matter more for offense than the regular Marines for the price. That's WAY more important.

Yeah. Offense is undervalued and defense is overvalued in 8th edition.

But the OP had a specific context in mind: in an objective mission with progressive scoring, which is the better MSU unit.

I personally wouldn't be hoping for much out of either unit except that it can stand near an objective for a round or two to get some points. The fact Cultists have more wounds make them more suited to this role.

In a kill points game, CSM are better simply because they can take a Lascannon. That gun gets the most work done for me in 8th edition.

But I don't know. 40k is infested with Imperial Knights right now and I'm not putting much into infantry that can't damage armor. Many people have commented on the mathematical possibility of Cultists / Berzerkers versus Knights, but it doesn't feel practical in most games. It's possible I'm not thinking through other possibilities.

Eh, I disagree. That's 85 points for a Lascannon basically.

That's terrible for a kill point game.

Being the mandatory alternative is 50 point cultist unit, it'sat most a 35pt Lascannon with 4 wounds in front of it, and that's assuming you get zero mileage out or any of the other improved capabilities of a marine squad

Tazberry wrote:
So I have be thinking about a contemptor dreadnought and a Leviathan. I’m only using BattleScribe so not 100% sure about points cost.

The leviathan is a better choice but I can take two contemptors which makes it a better choice in my opinion.

Just want everyone’s opinion on the matter before I make an order.

+1 for the two contemptors

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Eh, I disagree. That's 85 points for a Lascannon basically.

That's terrible for a kill point game.

When the alternative is 10 Cultists, 5 CSMs with a lascannon is great.

I'm not comparing them with everything else in the Codex. I'm saying, given a choice between MSU Cultists and CSMs, Cultists are better at progressive scoring objective games and CSMs with a lascannon are marginally better in kill points games.

 techsoldaten wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Eh, I disagree. That's 85 points for a Lascannon basically.

That's terrible for a kill point game.

When the alternative is 10 Cultists, 5 CSMs with a lascannon is great.

I'm not comparing them with everything else in the Codex. I'm saying, given a choice between MSU Cultists and CSMs, Cultists are better at progressive scoring objective games and CSMs with a lascannon are marginally better in kill points games.

Actually, to be correct, your alternative is now 17 Cultists. So for the spare 15 points that's 20 bodies instead of of just 5 bodies with only one good weapon for 85 points.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Eh, I disagree. That's 85 points for a Lascannon basically.

That's terrible for a kill point game.

When the alternative is 10 Cultists, 5 CSMs with a lascannon is great.

I'm not comparing them with everything else in the Codex. I'm saying, given a choice between MSU Cultists and CSMs, Cultists are better at progressive scoring objective games and CSMs with a lascannon are marginally better in kill points games.

Actually, to be correct, your alternative is now 17 Cultists. So for the spare 15 points that's 20 bodies instead of of just 5 bodies with only one good weapon for 85 points.

The accurate comparison is 5 space marines to 13 cultists. The option to take a Lascannon on top of that is then available to one of these units, for no other price than the cost of the weapon. Calling it 85 pts for a Lascannon was grossly misrepresenting it.

Instead of a lascannon, why not equip the champion with a combi plasma gun, and 1 csm with a plasma gun for 2 more points?

In an emergency you can overcharge to hurt 8T easier.

Came up with a list I'm really excited to try:

Battalion: World Eaters

Hq:

Dark Apostle
Exalted Champion: Power Fist

Troops:

9x Berzerkers: chainswords + chainaxes, PF and chainsword on champ, icon of wrath
9x Berzerkers: chainswords + chainaxes, PF and chainsword on champ, icon of wrath
9x Berzerkers: chainswords + chainaxes, PF and chainsword on champ, icon of wrath

Transports:

Rhino: combi bolter
Rhino: combi bolter
Rhino: combi bolter

Vanguard detachment: Renegades

Hq:

Lord with jump pack: axe of blind fury

Elites:

Helbrute: 2x power scourge, 2x combi-bolter
Helbrute: 2x power scourge, 2x combi-bolter
Helbrute: 2x power scourge, 2x combi-bolter
Hellforged contemptor: 2x deathclaw, 2x soulburner
Hellforged contemptor: 2x deathclaw, 2x soulburner
Dreadclaw
Dreadclaw


The contemptors will ride in the dreadclaws.

My questions:

1.) Are the soulburners worth it? 2d3 mortal wounds on 2's per contemptor could be clutch, but that's 120 points right there.
2.) The jump lord is there to "guard" the brutes and aura buff them, but would it be more worthwhile to bring a warpsmith to repair them?

With warpsmith and no soulburners, I could bring about 30 cultists instead for some decent board control and recycling.

Thoughts? Just a fun list, not for tournies or anything.

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Helbrute: 2x power scourge, 2x combi-bolter
Helbrute: 2x power scourge, 2x combi-bolter
Helbrute: 2x power scourge, 2x combi-bolter

Sadly, combi-bolters can only be attached to helbrute fists ("This model may incorporate a combi-bolter or heavy flamer into each Helbrute fist"). Also, despite what Battlescribe says I'm pretty sure that Helbrutes can't have 2 power scourges (reasoning below).

"This model may replace its multi-melta with a second Helbrute fist [...]
This model may replace its Helbrute fist with a Helbrute hammer or power scourge."

From the above, I can understand how people could assume that 2 power scourges can be taken - replacing the multi-melta with a fist and then both fists with scourges - but as far as I'm aware, all replacements happen at the same time and so the 2nd fist couldn't be chosen to be replaced with a scourge as it is (at the time of choosing to replace fists with scourges) still a multi-melta. To back this up, I present you with the double combi-plasma chaos lord.

"This model may replace its chainsword with one item from the Pistols or Melee Weapons lists"
Ok, so I'll replace the chainsword with a bolt pistol.
"This model may replace its bolt pistol with one item from the Pistols, Combi-weapons"
So I replace the 1st pistol with 1 item from the combi-weapons list, and then I replace the 2nd pistol with 1 item from the combi-weapons list, et voila!

I don't actually believe that this is allowed, but as it follows the same train of logic as having 2 power scourges then if you believe one can be done then you believe both can.

I realise it sounds like it, but I'm not actually trying to be a facetious arse, honest. I'm just showing my reasoning for why I don't believe 2 power scourges is allowed, but I'll happily be disproven because 11 S8 AP-2 D2 atacks is tasty.

EDIT: If it's a just for fun game like you say then I would assume it's fine so long as your opponent says so, obvs.
Can't comment on the soulburners since I've never played them, but as far as Jump Lord/Warpsmith goes, I think the aura buffs on the helbrutes would be more effective than repairing only one of them 1-3 wounds a turn since they don't degrade.

EDIT 2: I was big wrong and should pay more attention to FAQs.

Right you are about the scourge re: combi bolters.

I think the ability to take double scourges is in the big FAQ.

"This model may replace each Helbrute fist with a
Helbrute hammer or power scourge"

Sweet! Looks like I should start making scribbles in codices as much I hate the idea of defacing a book.
Also looks like I should read things before I make overly long internet posts.

Honestly, unless a person puts in a lot of effort (by my standards), there’s no way to stay current on everything. I usually just go along with any corrections my opponent throws my way and try not to slow down the game too much with my noobery.

That being said, the 6 combi bolters I can’t take also free up another 12 points. I appreciate having a short shooting phase.

If I really wanted to, I might be able to squeeze in a Renegades and Heretics brigade for another 6 CP. Not as tactically useful as a WE/renegade cultist blob, but those CP might end up being more useful, should I have the points.

 SHUPPET wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Eh, I disagree. That's 85 points for a Lascannon basically.

That's terrible for a kill point game.

When the alternative is 10 Cultists, 5 CSMs with a lascannon is great.

I'm not comparing them with everything else in the Codex. I'm saying, given a choice between MSU Cultists and CSMs, Cultists are better at progressive scoring objective games and CSMs with a lascannon are marginally better in kill points games.

Actually, to be correct, your alternative is now 17 Cultists. So for the spare 15 points that's 20 bodies instead of of just 5 bodies with only one good weapon for 85 points.

The accurate comparison is 5 space marines to 13 cultists. The option to take a Lascannon on top of that is then available to one of these units, for no other price than the cost of the weapon. Calling it 85 pts for a Lascannon was grossly misrepresenting it.

It honestly isn't because of how useless the other Marines in the squad are.

Its honestly more about how you use them and how to make them work right more than anything. Cultists are the best board contol unit we have, 2x40 in a black legion force isnt going anywhere fast. 20 black legion marines however have their own unique advantages.

1. They can advance and still shoot, making them more mobile. Add warp time in and these guys are damn near as fast as eldar.

2. Let the galaxy burn. 1cp to reroll all hits? Yes please.

3. Add abaddon in for ignore moral, a slaanesh sorcerer in for the 5+++, support can make both options excell even more.

I have caught enough of my opponents off guard recently with my 20 chaos marines that i am sold on them, bodies win games not awsome big guns. And with that much infantry set up you can spend the rest of your points on whatever you want for dealing with meta stuff (like a bloodletter bomb for knights, or a few tson deamon princes and tzaangors for t1 assualts)

Azuza001 wrote:
Its honestly more about how you use them and how to make them work right more than anything. Cultists are the best board contol unit we have, 2x40 in a black legion force isnt going anywhere fast. 20 black legion marines however have their own unique advantages.

1. They can advance and still shoot, making them more mobile. Add warp time in and these guys are damn near as fast as eldar.

2. Let the galaxy burn. 1cp to reroll all hits? Yes please.

3. Add abaddon in for ignore moral, a slaanesh sorcerer in for the 5+++, support can make both options excell even more.

I have caught enough of my opponents off guard recently with my 20 chaos marines that i am sold on them, bodies win games not awsome big guns. And with that much infantry set up you can spend the rest of your points on whatever you want for dealing with meta stuff (like a bloodletter bomb for knights, or a few tson deamon princes and tzaangors for t1 assualts)

Those are ALL things you can do for Cultists as well. The only thing Marines have the advantage in is weapon options, which is better done with Chosen and Havocs anyway.

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Honestly, unless a person puts in a lot of effort (by my standards), there’s no way to stay current on everything. I usually just go along with any corrections my opponent throws my way and try not to slow down the game too much with my noobery.

That being said, the 6 combi bolters I can’t take also free up another 12 points. I appreciate having a short shooting phase.

If I really wanted to, I might be able to squeeze in a Renegades and Heretics brigade for another 6 CP. Not as tactically useful as a WE/renegade cultist blob, but those CP might end up being more useful, should I have the points.

You know, you can also relocate some of those combi bolters. Chaos Rhinos for instance have the ability to take a second combi bolter, which is pretty decent dakka per Rhino. Havoc Launchers are also down to 5 points, which makes them an interesting choice as well!

That said, I think I would prefer a Khorne Daemons Deatchment, and changing over some of your mechanical friends to Maulerfiends + Defilers. Defilers and Maulers also enjoyed a pretty big price drop, and the ability to combo herald loci boosts to daemon engines is a pretty solid synergy. It would also let you incorporate the blood letter banner bomb into your list and add a bit of that Khorne Daemonkin flavor to your overall list.

Azuza001 wrote:
Its honestly more about how you use them and how to make them work right more than anything. Cultists are the best board contol unit we have, 2x40 in a black legion force isnt going anywhere fast. 20 black legion marines however have their own unique advantages.

1. They can advance and still shoot, making them more mobile. Add warp time in and these guys are damn near as fast as eldar.

2. Let the galaxy burn. 1cp to reroll all hits? Yes please.

3. Add abaddon in for ignore moral, a slaanesh sorcerer in for the 5+++, support can make both options excell even more.

I have caught enough of my opponents off guard recently with my 20 chaos marines that i am sold on them, bodies win games not awsome big guns. And with that much infantry set up you can spend the rest of your points on whatever you want for dealing with meta stuff (like a bloodletter bomb for knights, or a few tson deamon princes and tzaangors for t1 assualts)

LTGB, whilst having a fabulously inclusive acronym, feels so redundant. Like, you’re already paying for a detachment of Black Legion, why would you spend CP on rerolls for hordes when you can get Abby to give them the rerolls and also overcome their vulnerability to morale and give you more CP and scarecrow deep strikers? Honestly expected something for Chosen and Terminators in the BL Stratagem.

That said, in the early days of 8ed, I had some amazing results from Heretac hordes in smaller games. If the board’s pretty tight, WT & DA made them perfectly viable for rushdown. Stopped that when I had more Cultists, like, but it was still pretty fun to make HH formations work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Total wrote:
"This model may replace each Helbrute fist with a
Helbrute hammer or power scourge"

Sweet! Looks like I should start making scribbles in codices as much I hate the idea of defacing a book.
Also looks like I should read things before I make overly long internet posts.

Try writing your errata on a post-it note where the backing is sticky and then cutting it out to put it in your nice hardcover artbook so you can peel it clean when it gets retired from the rules shelf (or another FAQ changes it again)