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I swear sometimes I think I must have woken up in an alternate reality where people have seen completely different films to me.

"In keeping with Star Wars", jeezo.

No alternate reality. Some people just think Star Wars is more serious than others do.

I quite enjoyed the prank call.

Perhaps after Jar Jar, people are touchy about humorous scenes in Star Wars.

There's a pretty cavernous gulf between "serious" and "prank calling the enemy commander during a battle to tell space yo momma jokes".

It felt very in character for Poe.

He’s a hotshot pilot, the best in The Resistance, and knows it.

That’s made him somewhat arrogant. So trolling an enemy commander would probably appeal.

 Galef wrote:

 Scrabb wrote:
Look the long and short of it is RJ wanted some ww1 action in his movie and got it.

Which, to be fair, is very much what George Lucas did in the first Star Wars. Most of the model shots/movements of X-wings & Tie Fighters were carbon copies of old WWII dogfight footage

-

Down to the ill-fated Y-wing first bombing run on the DS1 trench. Battle of Midway style.
Yes, there are also parallels to the bouncing bomb Lancaster Rhine run but in that one of the BOMBERS got off the money shot not some hotshot redneck FIGHTER
pilot from the hick part of the galaxy.

...yeah, that would’ve been a better ending.

I liked the prank call, though I thought the movie dwelt on it a little too long and would have benefited for the Imperial shutting it down a little quicker and getting to the action. Everyone's disdain for Hux's over inflated sense of self importance is a pet love of mine alongside Kylo's desperate failings at being a bad guy, but its also a scene where I think the movie would have benefited from smoother pacing.

 insaniak wrote:
Honestly, I find it odd that people would think it didn't fit the setting. What it reminded me of the most was the pilot banter that runs through the old X-wing novels. Which isn't too surprising, since Poe was quite clearly meant to be a replacement for Wedge Antilles' character, and that 'prank call' was right up the EU Wedge's alley.

I also imagine that's what it was like to be on the tail end of Han trying to talk his way out of the detention block, just with a fair bit more cheek.

It was too much like something Tony Stark would do in the middle of a villain's monologue.

Nowhere in my memory of the Rogue Squadron books did Wedge prank call the bridge of the Lusankya to tell a knock, knock joke during an attack run.

Imagine Han prank calling General Tarkin. Too much Marvel attitude in my Star Wars (even though I love it in Marvel Movies).

 AegisGrimm wrote:

Nowhere in my memory of the Rogue Squadron books did Wedge prank call the bridge of the Lusankya to tell a knock, knock joke during an attack run..

I never said that exact situation happened. I said it reminded me of the X-wing novels' dialogue. One of the Rogue or Wraith pilots carrying on that sort of conversation with an enemy commander would have fit in to those books just fine, though.

I feel like the mere existence of Lieutenant Kettch and Dinner Squadron entirely invalidates AegisGrimm's point.

 insaniak wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:

Nowhere in my memory of the Rogue Squadron books did Wedge prank call the bridge of the Lusankya to tell a knock, knock joke during an attack run..

I never said that exact situation happened. I said it reminded me of the X-wing novels' dialogue. One of the Rogue or Wraith pilots carrying on that sort of conversation with an enemy commander would have fit in to those books just fine, though.

Wasn't necessarily quoting you, just making gross comparisons between the two.

 Ouze wrote:
I quite enjoyed the prank call.

Perhaps after Jar Jar, people are touchy about humorous scenes in Star Wars.

No, just want them to actually be funny.

It didn't help that the entire setup was battering down the fourth wall and suspension of disbelief, right on top of the lampshading that they didn't have a fighter screen because that was the only way to have the plot happen.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
It was too much like something Tony Stark would do in the middle of a villain's monologue.

Nowhere in my memory of the Rogue Squadron books did Wedge prank call the bridge of the Lusankya to tell a knock, knock joke during an attack run.

Imagine Han prank calling General Tarkin. Too much Marvel attitude in my Star Wars (even though I love it in Marvel Movies).

Had to admit I was a bit worried that was where they were taking Star Wars during that scene. But it was met afterwards by Leia giving Poe a sharp slap round the chops for getting most of his strike team killed. She was there to point out that he should start acting like a leader, and thus take his actions seriously. All he cared about was humilating Hux and destroying the Dreadnought, Leia just needed enough time to get her fleet to safety - showing off and losing an entire flight of bombers in the process was unacceptable.

 Kanluwen wrote:
I feel like the mere existence of Lieutenant Kettch and Dinner Squadron entirely invalidates AegisGrimm's point.

Indeed, the one and only run of Dinner Squadron does kind of disprove it. I still disliked Poe's call though, fair enough that he would make it but the FO response should have been to open fire (and launch TIEs) not sit there like morons.

I understand that the First Order are being laid out as an analogue to modern young and angsty Neo-Nazis, but I agree, that doesn't mean they have to be as dumb and comical as moustached villains from kids cartoons. Right from the get go they have been the young moronic goons of Snoke, like in Zombie fiction where you see a teacher surrounded by their former schoolchildren as a cult of followers.

They are like Empire-themed battle droids. I hope Rise of Skywalker shows them as something scarier and deadlier.

You don't have to be "dumb and comical" to be confused by someone's reaction to things.

The First Order are like "WE MUST WIPE THE FLITHY REPUBLIC FROM THE FACE OF THE GALAXY! HOW DARE THEY OFFER TEA AND BISCUITS WHEN WE COME TO VISIT!!!! DAMN THEMMM!!!"

I get the Federation - they are greedy - and I get the Empire as they just want the galaxy for themselves...but seriously, what is the First order's angle here?

Are they like...the evil teenager's regime from Solar Babies or something? Okay, Kylo has a good reason for going ape gak(I would if I woke up in the middle of the night to the sight of my uncle holding a lightisaber in a threatening manner!) but the First Order is like "I HATE NICE PEOPLE! STOP SMILING AT MEEEEE!!!".

HOLY CRAP!

Just interrupting this as I'm now watching an epsisode of Highlander("Family Tree") and a chap has just walked out of a Games Workshop! OMG!

...anyway, sorry. Yeah, I mean...why is the FIrst Order so nasty anyway? Even if Snoke said "Leia had my last rolo" it would be something!

Was it Methos? It was Methos, wasn’t it?

I bet it was Methos.

No! It was the young chap who wasn't looking for a cyber-razor-cut!

The resurgent Fascist movement known as the First Order is comprised of a group of cinephiles who are just so angry about New Republic movies including allegorical subtext that they decided to band together and burn it all down. Or Disney Star Wars is so lazy and uncreative that they just repackaged the empire with some Fellow Kids marketing to attempt relevance. One of those.

 AegisGrimm wrote:

They are like Empire-themed battle droids. I hope Rise of Skywalker shows them as something scarier and deadlier.

I have a feeling they're just going to get replaced by the red ones, who have their own pile of infinite resources and act as an 'entirely different' threat to the galaxy.

Personally, my beef with the knock-knock joke was how they just double down on Hux falling for it and acting like a buffoon. I get the angle for the First Order being pretenders trying to emulate the Empire, but that ties in to the whole issue of the new trilogy not having any actual tension regarding the main antagonists. From what we've seen, Kylo is a Darth Vader wannabe that is nowhere near the Dark Lord's power, Snoke just gets smoked after his long awaited intro and Phasma is just there to get dunked on. You need to at least have one competent antagonist to convey some sense of threat from the villains, as so far it feels extremely unearned for the First Order to have made such big gains against the Resistance and the New Republic. Having Hux be a foil to Kylo by being no-nonsense and actually hyper-competent ala Tarkin would have been great in establishing how the New Order is a threat in taking advantage of the complacency of the New Republic by deflecting Poe's desperate attempt to distract him and have their suicide run fail miserably because of it. That would have established Poe's recklessness and why Admiral Purplehair would shut him down as a commander and set up the internal tension within the Resistance way more fluidly.

 Grimskul wrote:
Personally, my beef with the knock-knock joke was how they just double down on Hux falling for it and acting like a buffoon. I get the angle for the First Order being pretenders trying to emulate the Empire, but that ties in to the whole issue of the new trilogy not having any actual tension regarding the main antagonists. From what we've seen, Kylo is a Darth Vader wannabe that is nowhere near the Dark Lord's power, Snoke just gets smoked after his long awaited intro and Phasma is just there to get dunked on. You need to at least have one competent antagonist to convey some sense of threat from the villains, as so far it feels extremely unearned for the First Order to have made such big gains against the Resistance and the New Republic. Having Hux be a foil to Kylo by being no-nonsense and actually hyper-competent ala Tarkin would have been great in establishing how the New Order is a threat in taking advantage of the complacency of the New Republic by deflecting Poe's desperate attempt to distract him and have their suicide run fail miserably because of it. That would have established Poe's recklessness and why Admiral Purplehair would shut him down as a commander and set up the internal tension within the Resistance way more fluidly.

100% agree. I like Last Jedi and think its one of the better SW movies, but you are right; in Force Awakens Kylo and Hux are serious rivals fighting over the favour of their master, but from the beginning of Last Jedi Hux is treated as a comedy punch-bag.

Reason I prefer Last Jedi over Force Awakens is because it at least gives us a reason why Kylo Ren has gone looney-tunes(good or bad, its something to go on), whereas the previous film has no motive for any of the bad guys whatsoever. The bit on Canto Bight also gives some hint as to the state of the galaxy and why the First Order and Republic are at each others throats - someone is profiteering from the misery of the struggle, possibly engineering the whole conflict. In Force Awakens they blew up planets we've never heard of nor are connected to any of the main characters - if it had been Coruscant we might have actually cared! At least in A New Hope we knew that Alderaan is Princess Leia's home planet and she was forced to watch the wicked deed done, thus feeling angry at the Empire and sorry for the poor woman.

Rose gets crapped on but at least we know more about her than any of the other characters; we see her sister die in battle, she is willing to make sacrifices(her half of the twin pendant she shares with her dead sister), she believes in not running away from problems and to see the world for what it is. We know she grew up on a world crushed by the First Order and she points out that its because others turned a blind eye. With the exception of Finn she has more meat to her character than the main characters themselves!

Still, it is what it is. Rise of Skywalker has a lot to cover and hopefully it will connect most of the dots.

 Grimskul wrote:
Personally, my beef with the knock-knock joke was how they just double down on Hux falling for it and acting like a buffoon. I get the angle for the First Order being pretenders trying to emulate the Empire, but that ties in to the whole issue of the new trilogy not having any actual tension regarding the main antagonists. From what we've seen, Kylo is a Darth Vader wannabe that is nowhere near the Dark Lord's power, Snoke just gets smoked after his long awaited intro and Phasma is just there to get dunked on. You need to at least have one competent antagonist to convey some sense of threat from the villains, as so far it feels extremely unearned for the First Order to have made such big gains against the Resistance and the New Republic. Having Hux be a foil to Kylo by being no-nonsense and actually hyper-competent ala Tarkin would have been great in establishing how the New Order is a threat in taking advantage of the complacency of the New Republic by deflecting Poe's desperate attempt to distract him and have their suicide run fail miserably because of it. That would have established Poe's recklessness and why Admiral Purplehair would shut him down as a commander and set up the internal tension within the Resistance way more fluidly.

I quite enjoyed the turn Rebels took with the introduction of Thrawn. The First Order could do with a character like that, although I think it may be a little late for that now.

To me it's also a big problem that the First Order is presented as non-functional when Hux is distracted. There is zero autonomy for ship commanders to send out their own fighter screen unless Hux first orders it. No one sees the hyperspace ram coming because apparently when Hux dismisses the cruiser as a distraction, any and all sensor officers take the rest of the day off?

Ships built around and strictly in need of their thousands-strong crews don't have anyone at their stations that can do their actual job without explicit command from Hux first. This strict focus on a single character's actions is just so very unbelievable.

SamusDrake wrote:
The bit on Canto Bight also gives some hint as to the state of the galaxy and why the First Order and Republic are at each others throats - someone is profiteering from the misery of the struggle, possibly engineering the whole conflict.

Palpi's retirement plan? Leaving politics for an exciting stint in the private sector, doing what he does best? Sure sounds like it to me!

SamusDrake wrote:
Still, it is what it is. Rise of Skywalker has a lot to cover and hopefully it will connect most of the dots.

I certainly hope it adds enough to make some things appear better in hindsight. The potential is there.

 Grimskul wrote:
Personally, my beef with the knock-knock joke was how they just double down on Hux falling for it and acting like a buffoon. I get the angle for the First Order being pretenders trying to emulate the Empire, but that ties in to the whole issue of the new trilogy not having any actual tension regarding the main antagonists. From what we've seen, Kylo is a Darth Vader wannabe that is nowhere near the Dark Lord's power, Snoke just gets smoked after his long awaited intro and Phasma is just there to get dunked on. You need to at least have one competent antagonist to convey some sense of threat from the villains, as so far it feels extremely unearned for the First Order to have made such big gains against the Resistance and the New Republic. Having Hux be a foil to Kylo by being no-nonsense and actually hyper-competent ala Tarkin would have been great in establishing how the New Order is a threat in taking advantage of the complacency of the New Republic by deflecting Poe's desperate attempt to distract him and have their suicide run fail miserably because of it. That would have established Poe's recklessness and why Admiral Purplehair would shut him down as a commander and set up the internal tension within the Resistance way more fluidly.

Your right but part of the issue is that the First Order effectively have to be useless because the New Republic/Resistance are even worse they are so incompetent that the empire would have crushed them in one movie. The only person on the good guys side that shows any ability is the hyper competent Ray, Poe is basicly a cheap knock off of Han and has all the problems that entails and in no way would be commanding anything. The less said about poor Jar Jar Finn the better he could have been so good but gets stuck as Ray's comic relief. In fact bb8 seems to have inadvertently been shown as the most competent member of the team but I guess that's following in R2's footsteps.

SeanDrake wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
Personally, my beef with the knock-knock joke was how they just double down on Hux falling for it and acting like a buffoon. I get the angle for the First Order being pretenders trying to emulate the Empire, but that ties in to the whole issue of the new trilogy not having any actual tension regarding the main antagonists. From what we've seen, Kylo is a Darth Vader wannabe that is nowhere near the Dark Lord's power, Snoke just gets smoked after his long awaited intro and Phasma is just there to get dunked on. You need to at least have one competent antagonist to convey some sense of threat from the villains, as so far it feels extremely unearned for the First Order to have made such big gains against the Resistance and the New Republic. Having Hux be a foil to Kylo by being no-nonsense and actually hyper-competent ala Tarkin would have been great in establishing how the New Order is a threat in taking advantage of the complacency of the New Republic by deflecting Poe's desperate attempt to distract him and have their suicide run fail miserably because of it. That would have established Poe's recklessness and why Admiral Purplehair would shut him down as a commander and set up the internal tension within the Resistance way more fluidly.

Your right but part of the issue is that the First Order effectively have to be useless because the New Republic/Resistance are even worse they are so incompetent that the empire would have crushed them in one movie. The only person on the good guys side that shows any ability is the hyper competent Ray, Poe is basicly a cheap knock off of Han and has all the problems that entails and in no way would be commanding anything. The less said about poor Jar Jar Finn the better he could have been so good but gets stuck as Ray's comic relief. In fact bb8 seems to have inadvertently been shown as the most competent member of the team but I guess that's following in R2's footsteps.

Don't get me wrong, the issue isn't only on the First Order's side. I totally agree that the protagonist cast has its own side of issues for furthering this lack of tension in the new trilogy. I think you pointed out a good point with Rey basically hard-carrying the group atm, since she is the one inexplicably capable with the force with little effort on her part. Finn could have been so much more interesting in seeing his story arc being less about him being thirsty for Rey and being more about him breaking out of his First Order indoctrination and effectively being a child soldier. It would have been great to see his attachment to Rey and Poe come from how they were some of the first to act human towards him and him coming to terms with having an identity outside of the First Order. It would also make Phasma actually have a role in becoming his personal nemesis from her seeing him as a mark of failure on her part of having one of her troops go rogue and a vendetta on her part to eliminate him from setting an example for others in the First Order to defect, while Finn sees her as the embodiment of what he is trying to escape. Unfortunately, I think a lot of the emphasis on trying to finagle nostalgia by shoehorning previously existing characters bogs down any development from the new ones, as they get overshadowed by the OG crew, so the passing of the torch never succeeds when they attempt to make it happen in the movie.

 Grimskul wrote:

SeanDrake wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
Personally, my beef with the knock-knock joke was how they just double down on Hux falling for it and acting like a buffoon. I get the angle for the First Order being pretenders trying to emulate the Empire, but that ties in to the whole issue of the new trilogy not having any actual tension regarding the main antagonists. From what we've seen, Kylo is a Darth Vader wannabe that is nowhere near the Dark Lord's power, Snoke just gets smoked after his long awaited intro and Phasma is just there to get dunked on. You need to at least have one competent antagonist to convey some sense of threat from the villains, as so far it feels extremely unearned for the First Order to have made such big gains against the Resistance and the New Republic. Having Hux be a foil to Kylo by being no-nonsense and actually hyper-competent ala Tarkin would have been great in establishing how the New Order is a threat in taking advantage of the complacency of the New Republic by deflecting Poe's desperate attempt to distract him and have their suicide run fail miserably because of it. That would have established Poe's recklessness and why Admiral Purplehair would shut him down as a commander and set up the internal tension within the Resistance way more fluidly.

Your right but part of the issue is that the First Order effectively have to be useless because the New Republic/Resistance are even worse they are so incompetent that the empire would have crushed them in one movie. The only person on the good guys side that shows any ability is the hyper competent Ray, Poe is basicly a cheap knock off of Han and has all the problems that entails and in no way would be commanding anything. The less said about poor Jar Jar Finn the better he could have been so good but gets stuck as Ray's comic relief. In fact bb8 seems to have inadvertently been shown as the most competent member of the team but I guess that's following in R2's footsteps.

Don't get me wrong, the issue isn't only on the First Order's side. I totally agree that the protagonist cast has its own side of issues for furthering this lack of tension in the new trilogy. I think you pointed out a good point with Rey basically hard-carrying the group atm, since she is the one inexplicably capable with the force with little effort on her part. Finn could have been so much more interesting in seeing his story arc being less about him being thirsty for Rey and being more about him breaking out of his First Order indoctrination and effectively being a child soldier. It would have been great to see his attachment to Rey and Poe come from how they were some of the first to act human towards him and him coming to terms with having an identity outside of the First Order. It would also make Phasma actually have a role in becoming his personal nemesis from her seeing him as a mark of failure on her part of having one of her troops go rogue and a vendetta on her part to eliminate him from setting an example for others in the First Order to defect, while Finn sees her as the embodiment of what he is trying to escape. Unfortunately, I think a lot of the emphasis on trying to finagle nostalgia by shoehorning previously existing characters bogs down any development from the new ones, as they get overshadowed by the OG crew, so the passing of the torch never succeeds when they attempt to make it happen in the movie.

While I agree with most of what you said I don’t think the issue is shoehorning existing characters into the movies that is the issue, it’s the shoehorning of the new characters into the star wars story well more crow barring really. In there desperation for that lovely lovely merchandising rights for the new characters they were desperate to show as few existing characters as possible, this basically hobbled any chance at a coherent story with the new characters being introduced more naturally and at a pace that would allow some character and growth. Hence by the end of the movie Poe is leading the Resistance, Ray is a Jedi Master and Finn is the new Jar Jar.

Basically all the new “character’s” and I use the term very loosely in both movies are cardboard cut out archetypes with little to no weight or prospect of growth or sense of history. It’s this last one that stops people who will say the original trilogy characters were the same from being completely correct but it is true upto a point, however take Han for example he is introduced with only a small amount of backstory showing he owes the wrong people money and has a shady past he continues to be motivated by profit and material gain for the rest of the movie until the final act where he returns to save his friend. It is only the small amount of history we are given that emphasises the characters growth and colours his story over the 3 movies and makes him feel like a character rather than a plot device with legs.

With the new characters none of them feel like finished well rounded people they all seem created to further parts of the story but without any connection to the universe or larger story intended, Han has more character growth in one movie than can be found for all the characters over both movies so far. They should have told a bit more of the new republic's and first orders history first(yes this would require them to actually know this stuff) and then introduced Poe with a bit more detail why he left the NR to join the resistance etc and then over the rest of the movie introduce Ray and Finn the film was fething long enough they could have done it and we could have lost some dead weight too.

SeanDrake wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

SeanDrake wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
Personally, my beef with the knock-knock joke was how they just double down on Hux falling for it and acting like a buffoon. I get the angle for the First Order being pretenders trying to emulate the Empire, but that ties in to the whole issue of the new trilogy not having any actual tension regarding the main antagonists. From what we've seen, Kylo is a Darth Vader wannabe that is nowhere near the Dark Lord's power, Snoke just gets smoked after his long awaited intro and Phasma is just there to get dunked on. You need to at least have one competent antagonist to convey some sense of threat from the villains, as so far it feels extremely unearned for the First Order to have made such big gains against the Resistance and the New Republic. Having Hux be a foil to Kylo by being no-nonsense and actually hyper-competent ala Tarkin would have been great in establishing how the New Order is a threat in taking advantage of the complacency of the New Republic by deflecting Poe's desperate attempt to distract him and have their suicide run fail miserably because of it. That would have established Poe's recklessness and why Admiral Purplehair would shut him down as a commander and set up the internal tension within the Resistance way more fluidly.

Your right but part of the issue is that the First Order effectively have to be useless because the New Republic/Resistance are even worse they are so incompetent that the empire would have crushed them in one movie. The only person on the good guys side that shows any ability is the hyper competent Ray, Poe is basicly a cheap knock off of Han and has all the problems that entails and in no way would be commanding anything. The less said about poor Jar Jar Finn the better he could have been so good but gets stuck as Ray's comic relief. In fact bb8 seems to have inadvertently been shown as the most competent member of the team but I guess that's following in R2's footsteps.

Don't get me wrong, the issue isn't only on the First Order's side. I totally agree that the protagonist cast has its own side of issues for furthering this lack of tension in the new trilogy. I think you pointed out a good point with Rey basically hard-carrying the group atm, since she is the one inexplicably capable with the force with little effort on her part. Finn could have been so much more interesting in seeing his story arc being less about him being thirsty for Rey and being more about him breaking out of his First Order indoctrination and effectively being a child soldier. It would have been great to see his attachment to Rey and Poe come from how they were some of the first to act human towards him and him coming to terms with having an identity outside of the First Order. It would also make Phasma actually have a role in becoming his personal nemesis from her seeing him as a mark of failure on her part of having one of her troops go rogue and a vendetta on her part to eliminate him from setting an example for others in the First Order to defect, while Finn sees her as the embodiment of what he is trying to escape. Unfortunately, I think a lot of the emphasis on trying to finagle nostalgia by shoehorning previously existing characters bogs down any development from the new ones, as they get overshadowed by the OG crew, so the passing of the torch never succeeds when they attempt to make it happen in the movie.

While I agree with most of what you said I don’t think the issue is shoehorning existing characters into the movies that is the issue, it’s the shoehorning of the new characters into the star wars story well more crow barring really. In there desperation for that lovely lovely merchandising rights for the new characters they were desperate to show as few existing characters as possible, this basically hobbled any chance at a coherent story with the new characters being introduced more naturally and at a pace that would allow some character and growth. Hence by the end of the movie Poe is leading the Resistance, Ray is a Jedi Master and Finn is the new Jar Jar.

Basically all the new “character’s” and I use the term very loosely in both movies are cardboard cut out archetypes with little to no weight or prospect of growth or sense of history. It’s this last one that stops people who will say the original trilogy characters were the same from being completely correct but it is true upto a point, however take Han for example he is introduced with only a small amount of backstory showing he owes the wrong people money and has a shady past he continues to be motivated by profit and material gain for the rest of the movie until the final act where he returns to save his friend. It is only the small amount of history we are given that emphasises the characters growth and colours his story over the 3 movies and makes him feel like a character rather than a plot device with legs.

With the new characters none of them feel like finished well rounded people they all seem created to further parts of the story but without any connection to the universe or larger story intended, Han has more character growth in one movie than can be found for all the characters over both movies so far. They should have told a bit more of the new republic's and first orders history first(yes this would require them to actually know this stuff) and then introduced Poe with a bit more detail why he left the NR to join the resistance etc and then over the rest of the movie introduce Ray and Finn the film was fething long enough they could have done it and we could have lost some dead weight too.

Agree 100%, the extra context of the new galactic order of the NR and how the current characters fit in it would have been great to have rather than relying on vague pre-movie script. As bad as the prequels are in their own way, you can't deny they did a hell of a better job worldbuilding than the current one.