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I'm strangely okay with them launching Epic as a Horus Heresy thing. Every new Epic player with a Legion force is one that I can convince to use a SM list against my Orks in any of the older rules sets.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/04/30 17:09:38
Hey, anything "Epic" on store shelves will help drive interest, and only grow the fan/NetEA community.
I just bought two giant Epic armies this month and am excited for the prospect of players even dipping their toes as someone said.
Plus the current community is super loyal and industrious. They built their own Epic 30k out of a template of Epic Armageddon, a dozen+ Epic Armageddon army lists, etc. I am sure these same folks would build onto or expand anything GW launches, especially if they see any local interest.
His Master's Voice wrote: I'm strangely okay with them launching Epic as a Horus Heresy thing. Every new Epic player with a Legion force is one that I can convince to use a SM list against my Orks in any of the older rules sets.
The rumour is that it's basically Epic:Armageddon rather than small scale Titanicus (I did wonder if something like that would work with suddenly having Strengths under 5 include half steps, rounding down against Titans) so they might even be just able to jump as with the list they have.
His Master's Voice wrote: I'm strangely okay with them launching Epic as a Horus Heresy thing. Every new Epic player with a Legion force is one that I can convince to use a SM list against my Orks in any of the older rules sets.
The rumour is that it's basically Epic:Armageddon rather than small scale Titanicus (I did wonder if something like that would work with suddenly having Strengths under 5 include half steps, rounding down against Titans) so they might even be just able to jump as with the list they have.
Can you explain your meaning?
I never got excited for the Titanicus thing (the Titans fighting each other?)
I loved old Epic where you had all the infantry, tanks and artillery etc.
You mean you think it is the latter? Basically armies fighting each other?
Oh what a glorious day! I am way stoked about being able to get back into Epic. I've admired some of the 3D printed armies people have for a while now, but not having access to contemporary official models has held me back. The OOP stuff might have been okay but it has been generally hard to find and costs ridic moneys on ebay before selling out quite quickly..
I'll just have to make sure my "vintage" Realm Of Battle board & 4-piece modular gaming Hill that is compatible with the board is redone in a relatively "scale agnostic" detail & finish (ie those skulls have got to go), and I will have an Epic board I always dreamed about owning when I was a teenager. And will have a complete BA army with fighters and thunderhawks, accompanied by a modest Titan maniple (perhaps in the Warp Runners livery, as a homage to my og Epic army from the 90's)
Not concerned about the setting being tied to 30K. I would have played Imperials anyway, my opponents can get their 3rd party Xenos models on and we can use 2nd edition Space Marine rules (I just need to find copies of all the rules for it somehow)
Feels Epic man!
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2023/04/30 20:00:18
"The larger point though, is that as players, we have more control over what the game looks and feels like than most of us are willing to use in order to solve our own problems"
lord_blackfang wrote: Personally I'd rather they wrap up some of the other side games first, I already can't keep up with everything and frankly neither can GW, there are still games with missing, nonfunctional or barely functional factions and they're adding more games that will be half done for years to come instead of completing something.
Blood Bowl might be going into a hibernation period soon, the game is missing just a couple teams in plastic.Titanicus is probably wrapped as a rules set and the line's getting merged into Epic. Same for Aeronautica.
Dunno how Underworlds are doing, haven't played it since the second season came out.
Someone in the BloodBowl Community said recently that Jay Clare (Blood Bowl designer) said at a recent event that there was plenty in the works for BB still. BB has also been releasing new teams (Snotlings, Nobility, Black Orcs, Khorne) before finishing off the remaining teams, which bodes well for it's future. Aeronautica/Titanicus will obviously have their slots taken up by Epic and given GW have expanded their factory space, so they can probably just release Epic without removing another line.
Regardless I expect Epic will die within 2 years, in my 25 years of being in the GW hobby, I've never seen anything at Epic scale actually be a success. Epic 40k crashed and burned, Warmaster was shuffled off to Specialist Games so fast some people don't even know it existed and Epic 4th has never been the most successful of the Specialist Games, let alone a big success.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/04/30 20:05:37
lord_blackfang wrote: Personally I'd rather they wrap up some of the other side games first, I already can't keep up with everything and frankly neither can GW, there are still games with missing, nonfunctional or barely functional factions and they're adding more games that will be half done for years to come instead of completing something.
Blood Bowl might be going into a hibernation period soon, the game is missing just a couple teams in plastic.Titanicus is probably wrapped as a rules set and the line's getting merged into Epic. Same for Aeronautica.
Dunno how Underworlds are doing, haven't played it since the second season came out.
Someone in the BloodBowl Community said recently that Jay Clare (Blood Bowl designer) said at a recent event that there was plenty in the works for BB still. BB has also been releasing new teams (Snotlings, Nobility, Black Orcs, Khorne) before finishing off the remaining teams, which bodes well for it's future. Aeronautica/Titanicus will obviously have their slots taken up by Epic and given GW have expanded their factory space, so they can probably just release Epic without removing another line.
Regardless I expect Epic will die within 2 years, in my 25 years of being in the GW hobby, I've never seen anything at Epic scale actually be a success. Epic 40k crashed and burned, Warmaster was shuffled off to Specialist Games so fast some people don't even know it existed and Epic 4th has never been the most successful of the Specialist Games, let alone a big success.
Go back further beyond Epic 40K. Epic 2nd edition and Titan Legions were a core line of GW's alongside WHFB and 40K. Epic 40K crashed and burned because they threw out the old Epic system entirely and that alienated the existing player base.
Londinium wrote: Someone in the BloodBowl Community said recently that Jay Clare (Blood Bowl designer) said at a recent event that there was plenty in the works for BB still.
Nice to hear. BB is such an oddball in GW's line-up that I think it should just be an evergreen product for them.
Londinium wrote: Someone in the BloodBowl Community said recently that Jay Clare (Blood Bowl designer) said at a recent event that there was plenty in the works for BB still.
Nice to hear. BB is such an oddball in GW's line-up that I think it should just be an evergreen product for them.
Per anecdotal evidence, it's popular with a crowd that has not much overlap with the wider wargaming community and does its own thing for the most part.
I own a whole space marine chapter in old epic miniatures (unpainted!)
It is a huge collection which will never see a battlefield at once, and a chapter is a fraction of a legion.
I'm thinking a board game could be a good shout here.
it's the quiet ones you have to look out for. Their the ones that change the world, the loud ones just take the credit for it.
The more I look at the video, the more I'm starting to believe that Epic is actually in the works. The units are marked as you'd expect for a HH game. Although this looks like it could be hinting at a computer game, the unit sizes and shapes really do fit the profile of EA's bases.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/04/30 21:21:34
Regardless I expect Epic will die within 2 years, in my 25 years of being in the GW hobby, I've never seen anything at Epic scale actually be a success. Epic 40k crashed and burned, Warmaster was shuffled off to Specialist Games so fast some people don't even know it existed and Epic 4th has never been the most successful of the Specialist Games, let alone a big success.
Both AT and AI are Epic scale games and have been on sale since 2018 and 2019, respectively. Thats longer than 2 years and both games experiencing long droughts in releases.
The frustrating thing is that the players - customers - are ready and waiting, but GW themselves just cannot be bothered with simple things; a new plastic scout titan for Titanicus, and keeping a single starter set for AI available. Riding on the coat tails of last year's Horus Heresy mania, this was an easy win for both games...
His Master's Voice wrote: I'm strangely okay with them launching Epic as a Horus Heresy thing. Every new Epic player with a Legion force is one that I can convince to use a SM list against my Orks in any of the older rules sets.
The rumour is that it's basically Epic:Armageddon rather than small scale Titanicus (I did wonder if something like that would work with suddenly having Strengths under 5 include half steps, rounding down against Titans) so they might even be just able to jump as with the list they have.
Can you explain your meaning?
I never got excited for the Titanicus thing (the Titans fighting each other?)
I loved old Epic where you had all the infantry, tanks and artillery etc.
You mean you think it is the latter? Basically armies fighting each other?
As in literally using the Epic Armageddon rules (4th ed? Units have an anti-personnel or anti-tank value that works against just infantry or tanks). Honestly it's one of GW's best games in my opinion, I prefer it to the previous Epic40K ruleset (3rd, where units just had Firepower values that worked off a chart).
You have formations of infantry and tanks (or a war engine, or squadron of warengines) and you operate on a alternating activation sequence. There's no real phases - just dependant on the orders you assign a unit when it activates (which you choose when you activate, no preassigning like Battlefleet Gothic or Titanicus). Units can 'engage' - move a bit and shoot, or go on overwatch to shoot out of turn, sustain fire - sacrifice most movement to get a bonus to shooting, assault! that triggers a Firefight/Close combat (something akin to a 40K scale game between two formations, that has devastating results for one side) or do a double or triple move.
Biggest departure form other games is that there is a suppression system, which starts to mess with your orders and how effectively you formations can fight, even without them losing any units.
You get a Blast marker (BM) every time a unit shoots at you, and also whenever you lose a model - with some weapons also adding more BMs regardless of if they kill anything like the larger artillery units.
Each BM you have within a formation stops a unit shooting, determined from the back of the formation (you lose casualties from the front).If you have more BMs than units, they you are broken and must fall back and can't do any orders - losing an assault automatically breaks you. Additionally, each new BM you get when broken kills a unit regardless of their save.
The tournament scenario is also a masterpiece, where you need to complete two out of five objectives after two turns. Perhaps kill the most expensive unit, or take their backfield objective, or hold two of their three objectives, or keep any of their units out of your table half, or hold all three of your objectives. At first glance it seems straight forward, but as you start planning things out you also have to keep an eye on perhaps an entirely separate set of objectives that don't align with you plan whilst also committing to playing some form of attack and defence. When making up narrative scenarios, we've often just come up with justifications for these objectives.
Generally you'd be playing 3-4K points and that would get you around 8-12 formations (that might be as few as 4, but generally around 6-10, occasionally 12 and up units).
So with infantry squads counting as one or two units for a set of ten marines, perhaps around 100 individual units on the table. You might have say 4 half companies including transports, a tank company with perhaps a few specialist tanks operating independantly, a couple of smaller specialist jump infantry units, bike outriders and Titan and Aeronautica support in an army of that size.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/04/30 21:32:30
Londinium wrote: Someone in the BloodBowl Community said recently that Jay Clare (Blood Bowl designer) said at a recent event that there was plenty in the works for BB still.
Nice to hear. BB is such an oddball in GW's line-up that I think it should just be an evergreen product for them.
Per anecdotal evidence, it's popular with a crowd that has not much overlap with the wider wargaming community and does its own thing for the most part.
Yeah it lives in it's own little ecosystem, which has as many cross overs from the board gaming community as it does the wargaming community. It supported itself fine without GW involvement for the best part of 15 years probably the best out of all the specialist games. It also has a thriving 3rd party miniatures scene. Even if GW dropped BB today, which I doubt it will, that game will do just fine.
Regardless I expect Epic will die within 2 years, in my 25 years of being in the GW hobby, I've never seen anything at Epic scale actually be a success. Epic 40k crashed and burned, Warmaster was shuffled off to Specialist Games so fast some people don't even know it existed and Epic 4th has never been the most successful of the Specialist Games, let alone a big success.
Both AT and AI are Epic scale games and have been on sale since 2018 and 2019, respectively. Thats longer than 2 years and both games experiencing long droughts in releases.
AT and AI are more niche, I was talking about the full on wargames at that scale. I see a space in the market for niche titles like AI/AT, focusing on uber specific warfare. Indeed those titles have shown it. They also deal with much larger vehicles than the full on wargame epic stuff, so the miniatures are much more attractive.
His Master's Voice wrote: I'm strangely okay with them launching Epic as a Horus Heresy thing. Every new Epic player with a Legion force is one that I can convince to use a SM list against my Orks in any of the older rules sets.
The rumour is that it's basically Epic:Armageddon rather than small scale Titanicus (I did wonder if something like that would work with suddenly having Strengths under 5 include half steps, rounding down against Titans) so they might even be just able to jump as with the list they have.
Can you explain your meaning?
I never got excited for the Titanicus thing (the Titans fighting each other?)
I loved old Epic where you had all the infantry, tanks and artillery etc.
You mean you think it is the latter? Basically armies fighting each other?
As in literally using the Epic Armageddon rules (4th ed? Units have an anti-personnel or anti-tank value that works against just infantry or tanks). Honestly it's one of GW's best games in my opinion, I prefer it to the previous Epic40K ruleset (3rd, where units just had Firepower values that worked off a chart).
You have formations of infantry and tanks (or a war engine, or squadron of warengines) and you operate on a alternating activation sequence. There's no real phases - just dependant on the orders you assign a unit when it activates (which you choose when you activate, no preassigning like Battlefleet Gothic or Titanicus). Units can 'engage' - move a bit and shoot, or go on overwatch to shoot out of turn, sustain fire - sacrifice most movement to get a bonus to shooting, assault! that triggers a Firefight/Close combat (something akin to a 40K scale game between two formations, that has devastating results for one side) or do a double or triple move.
Biggest departure form other games is that there is a suppression system, which starts to mess with your orders and how effectively you formations can fight, even without them losing any units.
You get a Blast marker (BM) every time a unit shoots at you, and also whenever you lose a model - with some weapons also adding more BMs regardless of if they kill anything like the larger artillery units.
Each BM you have within a formation stops a unit shooting, determined from the back of the formation (you lose casualties from the front).If you have more BMs than units, they you are broken and must fall back and can't do any orders - losing an assault automatically breaks you. Additionally, each new BM you get when broken kills a unit regardless of their save.
The tournament scenario is also a masterpiece, where you need to complete two out of five objectives after two turns. Perhaps kill the most expensive unit, or take their backfield objective, or hold two of their three objectives, or keep any of their units out of your table half, or hold all three of your objectives. At first glance it seems straight forward, but as you start planning things out you also have to keep an eye on perhaps an entirely separate set of objectives that don't align with you plan whilst also committing to playing some form of attack and defence. When making up narrative scenarios, we've often just come up with justifications for these objectives.
Generally you'd be playing 3-4K points and that would get you around 8-12 formations (that might be as few as 4, but generally around 6-10, occasionally 12 and up units).
So with infantry squads counting as one or two units for a set of ten marines, perhaps around 100 individual units on the table. You might have say 4 half companies including transports, a tank company with perhaps a few specialist tanks operating independantly, a couple of smaller specialist jump infantry units, bike outriders and Titan and Aeronautica support in an army of that size.
Thanks. So long as its armies...that would be me happy.
My love was 'Space Marine'...I think it was possibly Epic 2nd ed? (not quite sure). The one where you issued Charge/First Fire and Advance tokens.
Thought it was simple and effective. 8(?) objectives around the board, controlling each gave 5 points. Marine Scouts dropping off via Thunderhawk late in the game to steal objectives etc
Any variation of the big battles would see me good though imo, so long as they dont over complicate it. Never fancied the Titan based games.
Rumour going around in one of the Epic FB groups is that the person designing is a big Space Marine 2nd edition fan, so the rules are based off of that rather than Epic Armageddon.
I'd be a little surprised if that's the case, as as much as I love that ruleset, it won't allow the granular detail that Armageddon would allow for something like different Legion stats and ways of differentiating. Epic SM 1st edition was of course the original HH set, but I think would probably be a bit clunky to play now, so who knows?
I'm not very knowledgeable about their release history, but would it be fair to surmise that this pushes Epic into... late 2024? The tiny teaser seems to dash hopes of this year and next summer is Sigmar-shaped.
AT and AI are more niche, I was talking about the full on wargames at that scale. I see a space in the market for niche titles like AI/AT, focusing on uber specific warfare. Indeed those titles have shown it. They also deal with much larger vehicles than the full on wargame epic stuff, so the miniatures are much more attractive.
I see what you mean.
One of the reasons Epic may have done poorly in the past was the constant name change; Adeptus Titanicus, Space Marine, Titan Legions, Epic 40K and Epic Armageddon. Actually, in my case it had the opposite effect! My mother phoned up GW to order replacement models for Space Crusade, but they pretty much said "we sell a newer game called Space Marine..."
GW are slick. Very slick.
To my horror we ended up with a game box featuring a landraider surrounded by Ultramarines and flanked by large, funny-lookin' giant robots.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
No_Marines_Here wrote: I'm not very knowledgeable about their release history, but would it be fair to surmise that this pushes Epic into... late 2024? The tiny teaser seems to dash hopes of this year and next summer is Sigmar-shaped.
If Aeronautica is anything to go by then I would assume that this game - whatever it is - will be properly announced with the next round of previews.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2023/05/01 13:56:21
Pacific wrote: Well.. there we go, that looks pretty convincing!
Rumour going around in one of the Epic FB groups is that the person designing is a big Space Marine 2nd edition fan, so the rules are based off of that rather than Epic Armageddon.
I'd be a little surprised if that's the case, as as much as I love that ruleset, it won't allow the granular detail that Armageddon would allow for something like different Legion stats and ways of differentiating. Epic SM 1st edition was of course the original HH set, but I think would probably be a bit clunky to play now, so who knows?
Great news for me if true as that's the game I had the most fun with from GW.
Maybe combo in some of the blast marker/suppression stuff from 3 and/or 4 if that would somehow be possible?
Pacific wrote: Well.. there we go, that looks pretty convincing!
Rumour going around in one of the Epic FB groups is that the person designing is a big Space Marine 2nd edition fan, so the rules are based off of that rather than Epic Armageddon.
I'd be a little surprised if that's the case, as as much as I love that ruleset, it won't allow the granular detail that Armageddon would allow for something like different Legion stats and ways of differentiating. Epic SM 1st edition was of course the original HH set, but I think would probably be a bit clunky to play now, so who knows?
Interesting...I also saw some comments on FB that a designer confirmed that they weren't making a game called Epic. And that support for AT will continue (which the compendium and the return of the cards already implied).
Sooooo...maybe the game is "Space Marine" (mk.2)? And so perhaps it's explicitly a stepping stone product rather than "Epic returns...but not really" like I was yammering on about.
Pacific wrote: Well.. there we go, that looks pretty convincing!
Rumour going around in one of the Epic FB groups is that the person designing is a big Space Marine 2nd edition fan, so the rules are based off of that rather than Epic Armageddon.
I'd be a little surprised if that's the case, as as much as I love that ruleset, it won't allow the granular detail that Armageddon would allow for something like different Legion stats and ways of differentiating. Epic SM 1st edition was of course the original HH set, but I think would probably be a bit clunky to play now, so who knows?
Interesting...I also saw some comments on FB that a designer confirmed that they weren't making a game called Epic. And that support for AT will continue (which the compendium and the return of the cards already implied).
Sooooo...maybe the game is "Space Marine" (mk.2)? And so perhaps it's explicitly a stepping stone product rather than "Epic returns...but not really" like I was yammering on about.
Naming it 'Space Marine' is probably the worst they could do for 'granny factor', it's too easily confused with other products in their lineup and with the upcoming video game as well. What i could see is something like Horus Heresy: Legions or something like that, HH:Armageddon, HH:Apocalypse or whatever, making sure that it's a HH game first and foremost.
No_Marines_Here wrote: I'm not very knowledgeable about their release history, but would it be fair to surmise that this pushes Epic into... late 2024? The tiny teaser seems to dash hopes of this year and next summer is Sigmar-shaped.
If some of the more in depth rumours are true, and it's an Istvaan box, I think we're looking at the start of the 3-month window. Which would put the next announcement end of July/August, after the launch of 40K 10th edition.
Give it another 3 months of previews and hype and we're at the October/November slot.
No_Marines_Here wrote: I'm not very knowledgeable about their release history, but would it be fair to surmise that this pushes Epic into... late 2024? The tiny teaser seems to dash hopes of this year and next summer is Sigmar-shaped.
If some of the more in depth rumours are true, and it's an Istvaan box, I think we're looking at the start of the 3-month window. Which would put the next announcement end of July/August, after the launch of 40K 10th edition.
Give it another 3 months of previews and hype and we're at the October/November slot.
The unit icons in the teaser where SoH and IH legions, which is possible on Istvaan. As for your timeline, Valrak mentioned late summer to fall for the first releases.
11527pts Total (7400pts painted)
4980pts Total (4980pts painted)
3730 Total (210pts painted) 
