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But, Dark Eldar can do it in style.

And, as the great PTerry once wrote?

Style. That’s what people remember.

 vipoid wrote:

 PenitentJake wrote:
Okay, just read the goonhammer review of the crucible rules and it would let us put a Succubus on a Skyboard or Jetbike... Which is pretty cool- the skyboard guy could be a Baron Sathonyx knock off. You can also take a winged Haemonculus that can lead Scourges- so I'll use that to create my Krethusa Scourge Queen conversion.

Except it's not actually a Succubus or a Haemonculus. It's a pretend-Succubus or a homunculus-Haemonculus.

Point being, they don't actually interact with any of the existing Succubus/Haemonculus rules.

Because GW is still terrified of giving customisation to actual characters and so instead they let people play a dress-up game and give a wargear option to a mannequin that, in the right light, looks a little like an actual character. Until you try to interact with it, at which point you realise it's just a cardboard cut-out.

Could you clarify? I'm not really sure what you mean- I don't have the full rules yet- I caved in and ordered a copy of Maelstrom knowing I can use it in 11th, but I don't get it til Monday at the earliest.

So do you mean:

A) the Crucible building process involves stripping datacard abilities or other abilities from the character before adding the special tweak grom the Crucible rules
B) 10th hollowed out the profiles so badly that giving them bikes or boards doesn't really matter since you don't like the base unit
C) the unit's base abilities don't modify to the new unit type so that, while preserved, they become irrelevant when the upgrade applies
D) since these are "add-on" rules from a supplement, many pick-up opponents and tournaments won't use them

Of these four, I think A) would probably be the most egregious "own-goal" error, and C) would be a clumsy but typical oversight.

B) isn't untrue, and I get where you're coming from; they took a lot of steps to make the Archon a bit more flexible in 10th, but the Succubus and Haemonculus could use similar updating... But while valid, this complaint doesn't make me any less interested in trying these rules- a base, no matter how much we may wish it had more options does still benefit from having at least one option restored.

If it's D), again the point is valid (unless Crucible becomes a core Crusade rule in 11th), but it doesn't affect me because I'm generally not playing pick-up games with strangers- similar to complaints about units being moved to Legends... A valid concern, but one that's mitigated by controlling who you play with and where.

 PenitentJake wrote:

Could you clarify? I'm not really sure what you mean- I don't have the full rules yet- I caved in and ordered a copy of Maelstrom knowing I can use it in 11th, but I don't get it til Monday at the earliest.

So do you mean:

A) the Crucible building process involves stripping datacard abilities or other abilities from the character before adding the special tweak grom the Crucible rules
B) 10th hollowed out the profiles so badly that giving them bikes or boards doesn't really matter since you don't like the base unit
C) the unit's base abilities don't modify to the new unit type so that, while preserved, they become irrelevant when the upgrade applies
D) since these are "add-on" rules from a supplement, many pick-up opponents and tournaments won't use them

Of these four, I think A) would probably be the most egregious "own-goal" error, and C) would be a clumsy but typical oversight.

B) isn't untrue, and I get where you're coming from; they took a lot of steps to make the Archon a bit more flexible in 10th, but the Succubus and Haemonculus could use similar updating... But while valid, this complaint doesn't make me any less interested in trying these rules- a base, no matter how much we may wish it had more options does still benefit from having at least one option restored.

If it's D), again the point is valid (unless Crucible becomes a core Crusade rule in 11th), but it doesn't affect me because I'm generally not playing pick-up games with strangers- similar to complaints about units being moved to Legends... A valid concern, but one that's mitigated by controlling who you play with and where.

Sure, happy to elaborate:

Crucible does not provide upgrades for the Archon, Succubus or Haemonculus.

Instead, it has upgrade rules for:

- Arch-Tormentor (succubus equivalent)
- Flesh Crafter (Haemonculus equivalent)

There's no inherent Archon equivalent. However, you can give the Arch-Tormentor the Kabal Keyword instead of the Wych keyword by trading the ability to take wings/skyboard/jetbike. Because of course.

Regardless, the point is that the Flesh Crafter (while clearly the Haemonculus-equivalent) is not called a Haemonculus and nor does it have the Haemonculus keyword. Thus, as far as the game is concerned, it's not a Haemonculus. It can't take any Haemonculus Enhancements, it can't be affected by any stratagems or abilities that target a Haemonculus.

So, for example, you can't use the Postmortality stratagem to revive the Flesh Crafter because it's not actually a Haemonculus and the stratagem can only affect a Haemonculus.

Similarly, even if you make the Arch-Tormentor a pseudo-Archon, you won't be able to use them for the Warlord in a Kabal Cartel army. Because, again, the core stratagem requires an Archon and the character isn't actually an Archon.

This is why I call them pretend characters.

Dare I ask how the DE Crucible Options compare to those of other armies?

Don’t worry. I’m fully braced for disappointment.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Dare I ask how the DE Crucible Options compare to those of other armies?

Don’t worry. I’m fully braced for disappointment.

You probably won't be all that surprised to hear that I find them largely underwhelming.

Given that other armies get 3 base characters, I'm not at all clear why the Archon-equivalent is only available by spending your sole specialism of the Arch-Tormentor.

Beyond that, I don't consider any of the Abilities particularly exciting. A few are probably alright but all of them have the feel of 'we spent all out time on the more important factions and there's only five minutes left 'till the deadline so just write anything down. Sustained Hits is good, right? Everyone likes Sustained Hits. And, uh, maybe when they consolidate they can, uh, they can consolidate a bit more. Right.'

You do have the option of giving the Arch-Tormentor a jetbike, wings or a skyboard. However, when the trade-off is that they don't actually count as the relevant characters and can't take any Enhancements, it feels rather hollow.

A fact not helped by the weapon selection. You might think, for example, that a Scourge-Lord would have have no issue taking a Blaster or Heat Lance. Nope. Sorry, those are only permitted if you take a Jetbike. Anything else and you get to pick between a Shardcarbine and a Splinter Rifle. Truly an awe-inspiring selection. And doubly hilarious as the Archon used to be able to take an actual Blaster without needing a vehicle but clearly that's too much to ask. Fine for other factions to get heavy weapons and death rays but our characters can't even get a decend mid-range Assault weapon.

So in summary these rules are perfectly in keeping with the philosophy of 10th Edition and the treatment of DE as a faction.