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A leviathans stormcannons are good but a leviathan draws fire like few other units,(fireraptor pre nerf) it can tank a bit but be aware it's not guaranteed to be around turn 2.
I find my deredeo's anvilis auticannons are my go to bar pulling of nullzone and thunderhammers.

Ice_can wrote:
A leviathans stormcannons are good but a leviathan draws fire like few other units,(fireraptor pre nerf) it can tank a bit but be aware it's not guaranteed to be around turn 2.
I find my deredeo's anvilis auticannons are my go to bar pulling of nullzone and thunderhammers.

It's not very fluffy but Raven Guard Leviathans seem good. T8 2+/4++ with -1 to hit isn't going to go down easily. There's also drop pods, which oddly are cheaper for Dreadnoughts than they are for infantry. 80 points to drop that mean mothernaught right in front of the enemy at full strength with all of its guns in range? Yeah, I think that'll do.

 SputnikDX wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
A leviathans stormcannons are good but a leviathan draws fire like few other units,(fireraptor pre nerf) it can tank a bit but be aware it's not guaranteed to be around turn 2.
I find my deredeo's anvilis auticannons are my go to bar pulling of nullzone and thunderhammers.

It's not very fluffy but Raven Guard Leviathans seem good. T8 2+/4++ with -1 to hit isn't going to go down easily. There's also drop pods, which oddly are cheaper for Dreadnoughts than they are for infantry. 80 points to drop that mean mothernaught right in front of the enemy at full strength with all of its guns in range? Yeah, I think that'll do.

I didn't mean it's bad, just they tend to get focused down as they have a bit of a rep and only 24inch range heavy, moving means -1 to hit and you'll be moving turn 1 and turn 2 if your opponents any sence. Raven guard is defacto the only way to play marines.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Audustum wrote:
Hi Space Marine experts!

With my Grey Knights pretty well crushed by GW, I'm ally shopping again. Does anyone know what are SM's best options for dealing with high T, good invulnerables save monsters like Mortarion and Tesseract Vaults?

Autocannons seem like they might work but I can't find any good platforms (4 shots on a Dread is a but too inefficient a way to get there).

You're gonna need to double up on the Autocannons there obviously. Otherwise, go for Dark Angels and ham up on the Strategem to make the Plasma stuff 3 damage.

I think leviathan dreads are a good autocannon platform. You basically get 10 autocannons, but with ap2 and only 24” range. That’s backed up by 3 HK missiles since the latest FAQ, and a couple of heavy flamers for when people try to charge you - which they will.

I think the one major weakness of leviathans is getting locked in cc. But if you play DA you get around this because you’ve got a stratagem to fire after falling back. Whatever charged you will pay for it, big time. This is really good because the leviathan is liable to be charged, due to going quite close to the bad guys. It’s a huge advantage to be able to just wander off and keep shooting.

It is even better for smurf Levis since you don't have to burn any CPs.

Yeah if you want a shooting Leviathan, Ultramarines would help with that a lot.

Have you tried the tarantulas ? What have been your experienc with it ?
I like the model, but I am not certain I would use them !

 godardc wrote:
Have you tried the tarantulas ? What have been your experienc with it ?
I like the model, but I am not certain I would use them !

I probably annoy everyone here by talking about how much I love them.

Don’t they have to shoot the closest unit according to the FAQ?

 Primark G wrote:
Don’t they have to shoot the closest unit according to the FAQ?

Lascannons shoot at nearest vehicle and Heavy Bolters nearest infantry, which are the preferred targets for a unit like them anyway. Multi-Meltas (bad) and Assault Cannons (good) don't have the targeting restrictions but are limited by range.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Don’t they have to shoot the closest unit according to the FAQ?

Lascannons shoot at nearest vehicle and Heavy Bolters nearest infantry, which are the preferred targets for a unit like them anyway. Multi-Meltas (bad) and Assault Cannons (good) don't have the targeting restrictions but are limited by range.

To the extent than "nearest enemy vehicle" and "nearest enemy infantry" that your opponent can very often choose themselves is your preferred target, yes.

That sounds situational.

 meleti wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Don’t they have to shoot the closest unit according to the FAQ?

Lascannons shoot at nearest vehicle and Heavy Bolters nearest infantry, which are the preferred targets for a unit like them anyway. Multi-Meltas (bad) and Assault Cannons (good) don't have the targeting restrictions but are limited by range.

To the extent than "any vehicle" and "any infantry" that your opponent can very often choose themselves is your preferred target, yes.

It's a false caveat, as there is little infantry the Heavy Bolter Sentry will be ineffective against as the Heavy Bolter is no longer terrible. I'll grant you the Lascannon one but I advise against that one, even though it is a cheap source of Lascannons for the price

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 meleti wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Don’t they have to shoot the closest unit according to the FAQ?

Lascannons shoot at nearest vehicle and Heavy Bolters nearest infantry, which are the preferred targets for a unit like them anyway. Multi-Meltas (bad) and Assault Cannons (good) don't have the targeting restrictions but are limited by range.

To the extent than "any vehicle" and "any infantry" that your opponent can very often choose themselves is your preferred target, yes.

It's a false caveat, as there is little infantry the Heavy Bolter Sentry will be ineffective against as the Heavy Bolter is no longer terrible. I'll grant you the Lascannon one but I advise against that one, even though it is a cheap source of Lascannons for the price

My point was that your opponent frequently has the opportunity to pick your target, so I edited "any" to "nearest" just to make it clearer. Unless your opponent hasn't moved, or absolutely has to move his guy closest to where you've deployed, they're basically picking what your sentries are shooting at.

It's not so much Heavy Bolters struggling against infantry (they're great against most infantry units) as it is your guns not being able to target a key unit you need to kill, for example when you need to clear a particular screening unit or shoot a unit off a key objective.

Leviathans are an excellent source of high S firepower for targeting units w invuln saves. Smurphs is nice but I feel like it's pretty situational - I'd rather RG or run DA for unsupported rerolls and the fallback and shoot stratagem for when needed. If running DA you could also add a darkshroud for -1 to hit. I'd also run a cc lieutenant for wound rerolls and some counterattack capability

 meleti wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 meleti wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Don’t they have to shoot the closest unit according to the FAQ?

Lascannons shoot at nearest vehicle and Heavy Bolters nearest infantry, which are the preferred targets for a unit like them anyway. Multi-Meltas (bad) and Assault Cannons (good) don't have the targeting restrictions but are limited by range.

To the extent than "any vehicle" and "any infantry" that your opponent can very often choose themselves is your preferred target, yes.

It's a false caveat, as there is little infantry the Heavy Bolter Sentry will be ineffective against as the Heavy Bolter is no longer terrible. I'll grant you the Lascannon one but I advise against that one, even though it is a cheap source of Lascannons for the price

My point was that your opponent frequently has the opportunity to pick your target, so I edited "any" to "nearest" just to make it clearer. Unless your opponent hasn't moved, or absolutely has to move his guy closest to where you've deployed, they're basically picking what your sentries are shooting at.

It's not so much Heavy Bolters struggling against infantry (they're great against most infantry units) as it is your guns not being able to target a key unit you need to kill, for example when you need to clear a particular screening unit or shoot a unit off a key objective.

It's either the screening units or the infiltrating units that are closest. If they aren't, that's gonna usually mean your opening to get in is good.

There isn't a downside.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 meleti wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 meleti wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Don’t they have to shoot the closest unit according to the FAQ?

Lascannons shoot at nearest vehicle and Heavy Bolters nearest infantry, which are the preferred targets for a unit like them anyway. Multi-Meltas (bad) and Assault Cannons (good) don't have the targeting restrictions but are limited by range.

To the extent than "any vehicle" and "any infantry" that your opponent can very often choose themselves is your preferred target, yes.

It's a false caveat, as there is little infantry the Heavy Bolter Sentry will be ineffective against as the Heavy Bolter is no longer terrible. I'll grant you the Lascannon one but I advise against that one, even though it is a cheap source of Lascannons for the price

My point was that your opponent frequently has the opportunity to pick your target, so I edited "any" to "nearest" just to make it clearer. Unless your opponent hasn't moved, or absolutely has to move his guy closest to where you've deployed, they're basically picking what your sentries are shooting at.

It's not so much Heavy Bolters struggling against infantry (they're great against most infantry units) as it is your guns not being able to target a key unit you need to kill, for example when you need to clear a particular screening unit or shoot a unit off a key objective.

It's either the screening units or the infiltrating units that are closest. If they aren't, that's gonna usually mean your opening to get in is good.

There isn't a downside.

Not always, if your opponent can have multiple screening units and you aren't guaranteed that the nearest one is the one you have the highest priority on removing.

Smurf Levi can fallback and still shoot at -1 to hit due to their CT.

 Primark G wrote:
Smurf Levi can fallback and still shoot at -1 to hit due to their CT.

That’s true. The guy said he was thinking of DAs, and my point was that that would work well.

The leviathan seems like a decent fit in my crimson fist army. Ignoring cover is pretty useful on those storm cannons, and if it soaks fire for the repulsors that’s a pretty good thing.

I think I’ve found that 3 tough vehicles is the point where they become really viable. Lots of people can kill one on turn 1, but I can survive that. Something is going to be dead if the other guy goes first, after all, regardless of whether you go for tanks or infantry. The important thing is that I’ve got enough still alive to be able to hit back with, and that seems to be the case.

Here's my problem with tarantulas: Mortis Dreds...

2 HB Tarantuals: 74pts
1x2 HB Mortis: 109pts

2 Asscan Tarantulas: 128pts
1x2 Asscan Mortis: 119pts

2 twin Lascan Tarantuals: 140pts
1x2 twin Lascan Mortis: 175pts

The Mortis is tougher, can actually move, doesn't auto-die in CC, hits on 3+, benefits from CTs and can trigger Anicents Strat to become a baby Captain. It has no target restrictions.

So you should *never* take asscan tarantulas; they cost more than their equivalent on dreadnoughts and can be coutnerplayed because of their inability to move.

You shouldn't take lascan tarantuals because, even if you thought all the above advantages weren't worth 30pts, they have very limited targetting restrictions on a weapon that really beenfits from target selection.

You *might* want to take HB tarantulas, because they save you 35pts and have good range. They're literally the only tarantula you should consider taking over a mortis. Really, I think the only reason to consider tarantulas is to unlock brigades.

 grouchoben wrote:
Really, I think the only reason to consider tarantulas is to unlock brigades.

Well yes. I think hey bolter tarantulas are sort of ok, but even they have a tough time competing with stuff like dakka inceptors. I do think the cheap brigade is their only real benefit.

Speaking of Leviathans, what do you guys think of this for a casual list?:



Obviously all of the dreads are magnetized, so they aren’t all stuck the same, don’t worry!

 Crazyterran wrote:
Speaking of Leviathans, what do you guys think of this for a casual list?:

Spoiler:

2000pts:
Spearhead:

Hq:

Lieutenant: Power Axe, Bolt Pistol

Heavy:

Leviathan Dread: 2x Stormcannons, 3x HKM
Leviathan Dread: 2x Stormcannons, 3x HKM
Leviathan Dread: 2x Stormcannons, 3x HKM
C-Mortis: 2x Lascannon
C-Mortis: 2x Lascannon
C-Mortis: 2x Lascannon

Batallion:

Captain: Relic Blade, Bolt Pistol, Sanctic Halo, Adept of the Codex
Telion

Scouts: BP CCW
Scouts: BP CCW
Scouts: BP CCW

Obviously all of the dreads are magnetized, so they aren’t all stuck the same, don’t worry!

Casual

Ice_can wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Speaking of Leviathans, what do you guys think of this for a casual list?:

Spoiler:

2000pts:
Spearhead:

Hq:

Lieutenant: Power Axe, Bolt Pistol

Heavy:

Leviathan Dread: 2x Stormcannons, 3x HKM
Leviathan Dread: 2x Stormcannons, 3x HKM
Leviathan Dread: 2x Stormcannons, 3x HKM
C-Mortis: 2x Lascannon
C-Mortis: 2x Lascannon
C-Mortis: 2x Lascannon

Batallion:

Captain: Relic Blade, Bolt Pistol, Sanctic Halo, Adept of the Codex
Telion

Scouts: BP CCW
Scouts: BP CCW
Scouts: BP CCW

Obviously all of the dreads are magnetized, so they aren’t all stuck the same, don’t worry!

Casual

The batalllion isn’t guard, and I doubt I will win even any RTTs with it.

It looks like the kind of list that, if it does well and actually places at a GT, will get the Leviathan nerfed.

Then you will know who to lynch, I suppose!

Maybe they will make Mortis contemptors relic too, lol.

 grouchoben wrote:
Here's my problem with tarantulas: Mortis Dreds...

2 HB Tarantuals: 74pts
1x2 HB Mortis: 109pts

2 Asscan Tarantulas: 128pts
1x2 Asscan Mortis: 119pts

2 twin Lascan Tarantuals: 140pts
1x2 twin Lascan Mortis: 175pts

The Mortis is tougher, can actually move, doesn't auto-die in CC, hits on 3+, benefits from CTs and can trigger Anicents Strat to become a baby Captain. It has no target restrictions.

So you should *never* take asscan tarantulas; they cost more than their equivalent on dreadnoughts and can be coutnerplayed because of their inability to move.

You shouldn't take lascan tarantuals because, even if you thought all the above advantages weren't worth 30pts, they have very limited targetting restrictions on a weapon that really beenfits from target selection.

You *might* want to take HB tarantulas, because they save you 35pts and have good range. They're literally the only tarantula you should consider taking over a mortis. Really, I think the only reason to consider tarantulas is to unlock brigades.

3x Heavy Bolter Taratula Sentry Guns is 111, or 2 points more than the Mortis. I kinda stopped reading after that as it's literally a 2 point difference. That's 18 shots and can be spread throughout your deployment zone.

Shame you stopped reading; I'll try and keep it short for you. Your 18 HBs score 9 hits; my BS3+ HB Mortis scores 8 hits. My Mortis can move, choose targets, retreat from or fight in CC, benefits from CTs and can trigger reroll 1s strat. HB is the best of all the weapons in a straight up comparison with Mortis; the others are trash.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There's only one reason to take Tarantulas as far as I can see - filling out a brigade.

 grouchoben wrote:
Shame you stopped reading; I'll try and keep it short for you. Your 18 HBs score 9 hits; my BS3+ HB Mortis scores 8 hits. My Mortis can move, choose targets, retreat from or fight in CC, benefits from CTs and can trigger reroll 1s strat. HB is the best of all the weapons in a straight up comparison with Mortis; the others are trash.

1. Mortis can't fight in combat to make it worth it, whereas anything in melee with Sentry Guns can be targeted by your other shooting models and can itself shoot those models foolishly engaging with it. You'd NEED to leave a combat with the Mortis. I don't care if the opponent engages a 37 point model.
2. The Mortis can only be in one spot. I can spread the Sentry Guns in three different places to deny Deep Strike and infiltrating units.
3. You really don't need much movement with a 36" gun.
4. I literally LOL'd that you brought up Wisdom Of The Ancients as a bonus. That's one of the worst Strategems in the game.

Also, as soon as the mortis moves, it shoots at the same BS as the tarantula.