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So, for the record, I know they are overcosted and rather mediocre for their intended purpose, and when compared to their FW counterparts, BUT...

In my next game I am going to be playing 2 squads of 5 Allarus Custodians. I am going to be using them as big game hunters and line breakers for my bikes to be able to get in the charge scott free.

I want to see if I can get them to earn their points back and take down something big. If I pop their stratagems, they should be able to do good work, but it depends on how daft my opponent is.

Has anyone had good luck with them?

3 seems to already do what you want them to (all their lovely Strats), and past that point I suspect they drop in viability, but I've never taken more than 3, so my opinion is pretty circumstantial.

Maybe 2x3, but 2x5 seems a bit overindulgent, if you know what I mean

So, veird advice needed but bear with me.
My local scene is really small and have a fluffy tournament coming up, its 1550pts that has few limitations.
Max 2 detachments, no souping (expect for 1 knight).
Eternal war missions with Maelstorm of war secondaries.

Would it be viable to make something with custodes+ a knight (including forgeworld ones), most people play Eldar so no idea what direction to go.

What about a Warden, 2 helverins, a bike captain, 2 squads of vertus and a pallas? That comes in at 1550pt on the nose with 7cp.

TBH, i wouldn't soup a knight into a custodes list. I'd take a telemon either loaded out for all range with twin arachnus storm cannons, or melee with twin fists.

Hmm, i do have a telemon but what should i go with, i have a lot of custodes models but very little game experience with this army.

Souping a knight with Custodes is the quintessential TFG move....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, for the record, I know they are overcosted and rather mediocre for their intended purpose, and when compared to their FW counterparts, BUT...

In my next game I am going to be playing 2 squads of 5 Allarus Custodians. I am going to be using them as big game hunters and line breakers for my bikes to be able to get in the charge scott free.

I want to see if I can get them to earn their points back and take down something big. If I pop their stratagems, they should be able to do good work, but it depends on how daft my opponent is.

Has anyone had good luck with them?

So, with avenge the fallen, their attacks get crazy, and the strat mathematically works out best if a 5 man squad loses 2.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Araablane wrote:
Hmm, i do have a telemon but what should i go with, i have a lot of custodes models but very little game experience with this army.

For all intents and purposes, the Telemon is the best unit in our whole faction. It's top 10 in the whole game for Heavy support units. You basically take a couple, and build your lists around those.

Other other standout units are also FW, but to varying degrees of use. Callidus Tanks, Aquillon Terminators, and Pallas Grav-Tanks.

If you want to be "That guy" you load up several outrider detachments with a SC on Bike, and 3 squads of bikes. You have about 15 bikes, 3 bike captains, and no one wnats to play you.

Right, cause all bike lists have just been dominating the tournament scene lately...

Broadsides
Ravagers
Talos
Dark Reapers
Fire Prisms
Dakkafex
sniper drones
Doomsday ark
Basilisk
heavy weapon squad
Manticore
Leviathan SCA dread
Contemptor mortis
Oblits
Rapier Quads
Hellblasters
Morkanaut
Traktor Kannon
Kastellan dakkabots

... There's some pretty stiff competition for best heavy unit in the game. I don't think the Telemon makes the cut, frankly. It's not even the best heavy in the faction.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Souping a knight with Custodes is the quintessential TFG move....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, for the record, I know they are overcosted and rather mediocre for their intended purpose, and when compared to their FW counterparts, BUT...

In my next game I am going to be playing 2 squads of 5 Allarus Custodians. I am going to be using them as big game hunters and line breakers for my bikes to be able to get in the charge scott free.

I want to see if I can get them to earn their points back and take down something big. If I pop their stratagems, they should be able to do good work, but it depends on how daft my opponent is.

Has anyone had good luck with them?

So, with avenge the fallen, their attacks get crazy, and the strat mathematically works out best if a 5 man squad loses 2.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Araablane wrote:
Hmm, i do have a telemon but what should i go with, i have a lot of custodes models but very little game experience with this army.

For all intents and purposes, the Telemon is the best unit in our whole faction. It's top 10 in the whole game for Heavy support units. You basically take a couple, and build your lists around those.

Other other standout units are also FW, but to varying degrees of use. Callidus Tanks, Aquillon Terminators, and Pallas Grav-Tanks.

If you want to be "That guy" you load up several outrider detachments with a SC on Bike, and 3 squads of bikes. You have about 15 bikes, 3 bike captains, and no one wnats to play you.

The rule of three means you get one outrider since you can have a max of 3 bike squads. My all bike list is three squads of 6 with two captains, and this is what you'll get in 2000 points. You can shuffle models about here and there in the units of course and choose whether to have missiles or not (I have 6, but that's only 30 points, which is a 70 point hole, unpluggable by anything custodes) and make up the difference with misericordia.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 greyknight12 wrote:
Right, cause all bike lists have just been dominating the tournament scene lately...

Bikes are a super solid choice that suffered under the meta. If the meta shifts, they'll return with a vengeance, but both knights and eldar flyers hit them cost effectively, and are so prominent so as to suppress bikes. Eldar flyers in general just feth up custodes though, which is why custodes led armies aren't burning up the top tables. Long as eldar flyer spam's a thing, custodes will struggle. And with the advent of chaos knights and the... uh.... poorly playtested shenanigans they can get up to, I don't think this'll change any time soon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grouchoben wrote:
Broadsides
Ravagers
Talos
Dark Reapers
Fire Prisms
Dakkafex
sniper drones
Doomsday ark
Basilisk
heavy weapon squad
Manticore
Leviathan SCA dread
Contemptor mortis
Oblits
Rapier Quads
Hellblasters
Morkanaut
Traktor Kannon
Kastellan dakkabots

... There's some pretty stiff competition for best heavy unit in the game. I don't think the Telemon makes the cut, frankly. It's not even the best heavy in the faction.

About half of these are worse than a telemon.

The Telemon with double cannons has about the same damage output as the Grav tank.. when not moving. If moving, they don't perform as well. You're essentially paying 62 points for +1 Toughness and +1 Invulnerable save while losing PoTMS and 6" of movement. Decisions decisions....

 _SeeD_ wrote:
The Telemon with double cannons has about the same damage output as the Grav tank.. when not moving. If moving, they don't perform as well. You're essentially paying 62 points for +1 Toughness and +1 Invulnerable save while losing PoTMS and 6" of movement. Decisions decisions....

Uhh, not really? Against a Tank Commander, a Telemon averages 8.89, a Caladius averages 5.55. I don't really consider a 50% bump about the same. Now, if you're shooting against non-vehicles, it'll be a lot closer for sure.

That said, people are rumbling the Caladius gets a point bump next pass. Probably not so the Telemon. The winning list of BAO was a mix with 1 Telemon and 2 Caladii so the 'top' players don't consider it a clear cut difference either.

All that said, Jetbikes will still do brutally efficient work. Imperial Knight shooting actually isn't super great against them: stomps are. Stomps hurt. The reason you don't see a lot of Jetbikes anymore is more because the shooting castle of Trajan+Caladii+Telemons is just so good. You take the castle and then two battalions of chaff. Done. Easy list with lots of power.

Audustum wrote:

 _SeeD_ wrote:
The Telemon with double cannons has about the same damage output as the Grav tank.. when not moving. If moving, they don't perform as well. You're essentially paying 62 points for +1 Toughness and +1 Invulnerable save while losing PoTMS and 6" of movement. Decisions decisions....

Uhh, not really? Against a Tank Commander, a Telemon averages 8.89, a Caladius averages 5.55. I don't really consider a 50% bump about the same. Now, if you're shooting against non-vehicles, it'll be a lot closer for sure.

It is alot closer. In fact, that's what I was basing my calculations on. Against a T8 enemy with a 5++ save, both do 4.44 wounds.

Telemon has, on a 2+ (I will assume rerolling 1s to-hit for a Captain, but not wounds) 4 S9 AP-4 D3 shots, rerolling wounds against vehicles, and 10 S5 AP-1 D1 shots. (Assuming the target is within 24".)
Caladius has, on the same BS, either 2 S9 AP-4 D3 shots, rerolling wounds against vehicles, 12 S7 AP-2 D1 shots, or 8 S8 AP-3 Dd3 shots.

Math time! Because they have a 2+ rerolling BS, I will assume they just hit. 35/36 is close enough to 1/1 I can't be assed to calculate that bit.

Telemon

vs. Leman Russ
4 Storm hits
32/9 wounds
32/9 unsaved
32/3 damage, or 10.67
10 Bolt hits
10/3 wounds
5/3 unsaved
5/3 damage, or 1.4
12.07 total

vs. Knight
4 Storm hits
32/9 wounds
64/27 unsaved
64/9 damage, or 7.11
10 bolt hits
10/3 wounds
5/3 unsaved
5/3 damage, or 1.4
8.51 total

Caladius

vs Russ
2 Storm hits
16/9 wounds
16/9 unsaved
48/9 damage, or 5.33

12 weak Storm hits
4 wounds
8/3 unsaved
8/3 damage, or 2.67

8 Accelerator hits
3 wounds
5/2 unsaved
5 damage, or 5

Not gonna bother doing math against the knight-the Telemon kicks the Caladius's butt hardcore.

They're both solid, the better choice depends on your opponent. The difference in damage output and ideal targets is significant but less so than the other respective features of the units IMO.

Against Tau, Knights, Admech etc the Telemon would the more effective choice with its 2+/4++/6+++.

Against GSC, DE, Orks etc you'll probably find more value in the FLY rule, -2 to charge rule, and POTMS of the Caladius.

When selecting units for my armies I like to think about not only how much damage they will do, but how easy it is for my enemy to gimp/destroy the unit. The Telemon, while clearly more durable vs shooting, is easy to lock up if they have the tools to do so. And if you're not sure on your opponents army perhaps taking 2 of one and one of the other is the best option, as mentioned before.

Audustum wrote:

 _SeeD_ wrote:
The Telemon with double cannons has about the same damage output as the Grav tank.. when not moving. If moving, they don't perform as well. You're essentially paying 62 points for +1 Toughness and +1 Invulnerable save while losing PoTMS and 6" of movement. Decisions decisions....

Uhh, not really? Against a Tank Commander, a Telemon averages 8.89, a Caladius averages 5.55. I don't really consider a 50% bump about the same. Now, if you're shooting against non-vehicles, it'll be a lot closer for sure.

That said, people are rumbling the Caladius gets a point bump next pass. Probably not so the Telemon. The winning list of BAO was a mix with 1 Telemon and 2 Caladii so the 'top' players don't consider it a clear cut difference either.

All that said, Jetbikes will still do brutally efficient work. Imperial Knight shooting actually isn't super great against them: stomps are. Stomps hurt. The reason you don't see a lot of Jetbikes anymore is more because the shooting castle of Trajan+Caladii+Telemons is just so good. You take the castle and then two battalions of chaff. Done. Easy list with lots of power.

The avenger is one of the best anti biker guns in the game, and double avenger is coming with chaos. Even just the castellan, the plasma cannon is pretty efficient. Of course the valiant is the most brutal with its flamer

stratigo wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 _SeeD_ wrote:
The Telemon with double cannons has about the same damage output as the Grav tank.. when not moving. If moving, they don't perform as well. You're essentially paying 62 points for +1 Toughness and +1 Invulnerable save while losing PoTMS and 6" of movement. Decisions decisions....

Uhh, not really? Against a Tank Commander, a Telemon averages 8.89, a Caladius averages 5.55. I don't really consider a 50% bump about the same. Now, if you're shooting against non-vehicles, it'll be a lot closer for sure.

That said, people are rumbling the Caladius gets a point bump next pass. Probably not so the Telemon. The winning list of BAO was a mix with 1 Telemon and 2 Caladii so the 'top' players don't consider it a clear cut difference either.

All that said, Jetbikes will still do brutally efficient work. Imperial Knight shooting actually isn't super great against them: stomps are. Stomps hurt. The reason you don't see a lot of Jetbikes anymore is more because the shooting castle of Trajan+Caladii+Telemons is just so good. You take the castle and then two battalions of chaff. Done. Easy list with lots of power.

The avenger is one of the best anti biker guns in the game, and double avenger is coming with chaos. Even just the castellan, the plasma cannon is pretty efficient. Of course the valiant is the most brutal with its flamer

I just don't see where this comes from. Assuming unbuffed on both sides, an AGC only kills a single Jetbike on average, but it has a standard deviation of 2.58 which means it's INCREDIBLY swingy. It has a 38% chance of only doing between 0 and 2 wounds, meaning a bit more than 1/3 of the time it won't even kill a Jetbike. If the Jetbike has cover (either through actual cover or the stratagem for going second) it only averages 2.67 wounds and has a standard deviation of 2.18. It upgrades to a whopping 60% chance of doing 0-2 wounds, meaning it will fail to kill a Jetbike more than half the time. If the -1 Vexilla is present (but no cover) it averages 3.00 wounds with a 2.29 deviation and has a 55% chance of doing 0-2 wounds. If both cover and the Vexilla are present, it averages 2.00 wounds with a standard deviation of 1.91 and has an enormous 73% chance of doing 0-2 wounds.

That's not terribly good to be honest. Yeah, a Chaos Knight with 2 of them and buffs will put the hurt on the squad, but that's very much a case of 'spending more to hurt less'.

 grouchoben wrote:
Broadsides
Ravagers
Talos
Dark Reapers
Fire Prisms
Dakkafex
sniper drones
Doomsday ark
Basilisk
heavy weapon squad
Manticore
Leviathan SCA dread
Contemptor mortis
Oblits
Rapier Quads
Hellblasters
Morkanaut
Traktor Kannon
Kastellan dakkabots

... There's some pretty stiff competition for best heavy unit in the game. I don't think the Telemon makes the cut, frankly. It's not even the best heavy in the faction.

HAH. You are putting Oblits and Morkanauts ahead of Telemons? And I am fairly positive the Telemon would make happy rape faces against 95% of that list if it goes first. IGOUGO makes list building by effectiveness moot anyway. It's practically worthless.

That being said, 272 points for something that can make 500pt Knights cry tears of regret is awesome in my book. Even the Mortis can't do that.

I'm confused! A Telemon with Trajan rerolls will do what, an expected 5.2 damage with its Arachnus vs a 4++ knight? That won't cause a knight 'to cry tears' of any kind.

A 3-oblit squad with the same buffs, but with votlw and cacophony average 21.8. ... More expensive by about 65pts, but incomparably better. Like, shockingly. Of course Oblits are better than Telemons in the AT roll. They're also better as anti-elites.

You bring up the Mortis - well, that with 4las and the same buffs does exactly the same damage as a Telemon against your example knight, 5.2, for more than a 100pts cheaper.

" IGOUGO makes list building by effectiveness moot anyway." Certainly there's more to a unit's profile than its damage output. I wouldn't claim otherwise. But it's a key factor, especially when weighing up a killer unit like obits or telemons, that's their primary function.

The telemon wins big in toughness, that's true. Both the other units are more glassy. but hey, one of them is over 100pts cheaper, the other does about 4 times the damage. You better be rating toughness awful high in your list-building priorities...

Well, a LOT needs to go right for that Obliterator squad to do that. You could just as easily, with the randomness of their guns, end up doing nothing. Oblits are like Big Meks with Shokk Guns. Sure, you CAN one shot that titan, but more likely you're just gonna do a few wounds and get deleted on the knights shooting phase.

My own opinion, OBlits are not anywhere near Telemon for consistent and dedicated damage.

True enough, and it's 3cp to crank them up like that, but that's the whole point of them: they buff so well.

Those are the averages though, no rerolls from casts or psykers included. Even with the dreaded 'double one' for your damage roll, blits still put out twice the hurt on a knight. But look at it this way: if you literally get 1s on every single roll - S, AP, D, twice over - then they put out 5.4 on the knight - the same expected from the Arachnus. That's how much better they are at deleting knights.

 grouchoben wrote:
True enough, and it's 3cp to crank them up like that, but that's the whole point of them: they buff so well.

Those are the averages though, no rerolls from casts or psykers included. Even with the dreaded 'double one' for your damage roll, blits still put out twice the hurt on a knight. But look at it this way: if you literally get 1s on every single roll - S, AP, D, twice over - then they put out 5.4 on the knight - the same expected from the Arachnus. That's how much better they are at deleting knights.

Which is why three of them cost 345. Almost 100 more.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
True enough, and it's 3cp to crank them up like that, but that's the whole point of them: they buff so well.

Those are the averages though, no rerolls from casts or psykers included. Even with the dreaded 'double one' for your damage roll, blits still put out twice the hurt on a knight. But look at it this way: if you literally get 1s on every single roll - S, AP, D, twice over - then they put out 5.4 on the knight - the same expected from the Arachnus. That's how much better they are at deleting knights.

Which is why three of them cost 345. Almost 100 more.

So, for a less than 50% increase in price, you get the same damage... On a 1/27 chance of rolling 1s across the board (1/81 if you save a CP to reroll one of them).

 JNAProductions wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
True enough, and it's 3cp to crank them up like that, but that's the whole point of them: they buff so well.

Those are the averages though, no rerolls from casts or psykers included. Even with the dreaded 'double one' for your damage roll, blits still put out twice the hurt on a knight. But look at it this way: if you literally get 1s on every single roll - S, AP, D, twice over - then they put out 5.4 on the knight - the same expected from the Arachnus. That's how much better they are at deleting knights.

Which is why three of them cost 345. Almost 100 more.

So, for a less than 50% increase in price, you get the same damage... On a 1/27 chance of rolling 1s across the board (1/81 if you save a CP to reroll one of them).

Honest question:

Anyone got the breakdown for all three potential firing Strengths of the Oblits against a Knight Equivalent? Just want to see wounds generated by 7/8/9, 18 shots, 4++ saves. I'm assuming the 4++ would always be better in this case.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
True enough, and it's 3cp to crank them up like that, but that's the whole point of them: they buff so well.

Those are the averages though, no rerolls from casts or psykers included. Even with the dreaded 'double one' for your damage roll, blits still put out twice the hurt on a knight. But look at it this way: if you literally get 1s on every single roll - S, AP, D, twice over - then they put out 5.4 on the knight - the same expected from the Arachnus. That's how much better they are at deleting knights.

Which is why three of them cost 345. Almost 100 more.

So, for a less than 50% increase in price, you get the same damage... On a 1/27 chance of rolling 1s across the board (1/81 if you save a CP to reroll one of them).

Honest question:

Anyone got the breakdown for all three potential firing Strengths of the Oblits against a Knight Equivalent? Just want to see wounds generated by 7/8/9, 18 shots, 4++ saves. I'm assuming the 4++ would always be better in this case.

There are nine possible shot profiles, assuming a 3+/4++ (since AP is irrelevant). But there's actually 12, since VotLW exists, and they can get 36 shots with Endless Cacophony.

36 shots
24 hits

Wounding on a 5+ gives you 8 wounds and 4 failed saves
Wounding on a 4+ gives you 12 wounds and 6 failed saves
Wounding on a 3+ gives you 16 wounds and 8 failed saves
Wounding on a 2+ gives you 20 wounds and 10 failed saves

Multiplied by 1, 2, or 3 for the damage stat, and that's assuming no rerolls at all.

Since VotLW and EC can't be stopped by an Imperial or Chaos player (and they're the only ones with Knights) that's 6 damage on the low end (S7 and 1 damage) and 30+ damage on the high end (S9, 3 damage, and some rerolls that were not factored in).

Ok, I admit defeat. I had no idea Oblits could do that sorta damage. I've never had an opponent use EC on them. Granted I've never seen them as Slaneshi. Good stuff.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Ok, I admit defeat. I had no idea Oblits could do that sorta damage. I've never had an opponent use EC on them. Granted I've never seen them as Slaneshi. Good stuff.

So instead of being argumentative and picking a fight, maybe try (at a minimum) giving other posters the benefit of the doubt when they contradict something that you personally know you aren’t as familiar with?

Goes for a lot of your posts in this thread.

Has anyone ever actually tried the Aquilon Terminators with the Solerite Power Talons? I know the Energy Fists are always the better choice for their usual task of murderizing big stuff, but I was curious.

(Sorry for derailing this thread with Oblit chat)

Tiberias wrote:
Has anyone ever actually tried the Aquilon Terminators with the Solerite Power Talons? I know the Energy Fists are always the better choice for their usual task of murderizing big stuff, but I was curious.

I've wracked my brain for reasons to run them with talons, but I have yet to find one. 3s rerolling vs flat 2s to wound infantry, loss of 1 ap, and losing d3 damage for flat 1 damage... But they don't get anything like extra attacks. So...no...can't think of a reason.