Whats really going on in afgahnistan

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**FM Ninja 048**

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jul/25/afghanistan-war-logs-military-leaks

A huge cache of secret US military files today provides a devastating portrait of the failing war in Afghanistan, revealing how coalition forces have killed hundreds of civilians in unreported incidents, Taliban attacks have soared and Nato commanders fear neighbouring Pakistan and Iran are fuelling the insurgency.

The disclosures come from more than 90,000 records of incidents and intelligence reports about the conflict obtained by the whistleblowers' website Wikileaks in one of the biggest leaks in US military history. The files, which were made available to the Guardian, the New York Times and the German weekly Der Spiegel, give a blow-by-blow account of the fighting over the last six years, which has so far cost the lives of more than 320 British and over 1,000 US troops.

Their publication comes amid mounting concern that Barack Obama's "surge" strategy is failing and as coalition troops hunt for two US navy sailors captured by the Taliban south of Kabul on Friday.

The war logs also detail:

• How a secret "black" unit of special forces hunts down Taliban leaders for "kill or capture" without trial.

• How the US covered up evidence that the Taliban have acquired deadly surface-to-air missiles.

• How the coalition is increasingly using deadly Reaper drones to hunt and kill Taliban targets by remote control from a base in Nevada.

• How the Taliban have caused growing carnage with a massive escalation of its roadside bombing campaign, which has killed more than 2,000 civilians to date.

In a statement, the White House said the chaotic picture painted by the logs was the result of "under-resourcing" under Obama's predecessor, saying: "It is important to note that the time period reflected in the documents is January 2004 to December 2009."

The White House also criticised the publication of the files by Wikileaks: "We strongly condemn the disclosure of classified information by individuals and organisations, which puts the lives of the US and partner service members at risk and threatens our national security. Wikileaks made no effort to contact the US government about these documents, which may contain information that endanger the lives of Americans, our partners, and local populations who co-operate with us."

The logs detail, in sometimes harrowing vignettes, the toll on civilians exacted by coalition forces: events termed "blue on white" in military jargon. The logs reveal 144 such incidents. Some of these casualties come from the controversial air strikes that have led to Afghan government protests in the past, but a large number of previously unknown incidents also appear to be the result of troops shooting unarmed drivers or motorcyclists out of a determination to protect themselves from suicide bombers. At least 195 civilians are admitted to have been killed and 174 wounded in total, although this is likely to be an underestimate because many disputed incidents are omitted from the daily snapshots reported by troops on the ground and then collated, sometimes erratically, by military intelligence analysts.

Bloody errors at civilians' expense, as recorded in the logs, include the day French troops strafed a bus full of children in 2008, wounding eight. A US patrol similarly machine-gunned a bus, wounding or killing 15 of its passengers, and in 2007 Polish troops mortared a village, killing a wedding party including a pregnant woman, in an apparent revenge attack.

Questionable shootings of civilians by British troops also figure. The American compilers detail an unusual cluster of four British shootings in the streets of Kabul within the space of barely a single month, in October/November 2007, culminating in the killing of the son of an Afghan general. Of one shooting, they wrote: "Investigation is controlled by the British. We not able [sic] to get the complete story."

A second cluster of similar shootings, all involving Royal Marine commandos in the ferociously contested Helmand province, took place in a six-month period at the end of 2008. Asked by the Guardian about these allegations, the Ministry of Defence said: "We have been unable to corroborate these claims in the short time available and it would be inappropriate to speculate on specific cases without further verification of the alleged actions."

Rachel Reid, who investigates civilian casualty incidents in Afghanistan for Human Rights Watch, said: "These files bring to light what's been a consistent trend by US and NATO forces: the concealment of civilian casualties. Despite numerous tactical directives ordering transparent investigations when civilians are killed, there have been incidents I've investigated in recent months where this is still not happening. Accountability is not just something you do when you are caught. It should be part of the way US and NATO do business in Afghanistan every time they kill or harm civilians."

The reports, many of which the Guardian is publishing in full online, present an unvarnished and often compelling account of the reality of modern war. Most of the material, although classified "secret" at the time, is no longer militarily sensitive. A small amount of information has been withheld from publication in the Guardian because it might endanger local informants or give away genuine military secrets. Wikileaks, whose founder, Julian Assange, obtained the material in circumstances he will not discuss, also says it redacted harmful material before posting the bulk of the data on its own "uncensorable" series of global servers.

Wikileaks published in April this year a previously suppressed classified video of US Apache helicopters killing two Reuters cameramen on the streets of Baghdad, which gained international attention. A 22-year-old intelligence analyst, Bradley Manning, was arrested in Iraq and charged with leaking the video, but not with leaking the latest material. The Pentagon's criminal investigations department continues to try to trace the leaks and recently unsuccessfully asked Assange, he says, to meet them outside the US to help them.

What does dakka think of the war in afgahnistan, are we handling it right?, should we pull out?, should we send more troops in?

**Regwon**

Well there's a war in afganistan right now , so my bet is that a lot of people are getting shot and blown up.

**Platuan4th**

• How the coalition is increasingly using deadly Reaper drones to hunt and kill Taliban targets by remote control from a base in Nevada.

And?

That's how drones are supposed to work.

**dogma**

• How a secret "black" unit of special forces hunts down Taliban leaders for "kill or capture" without trial.

• How the US covered up evidence that the Taliban have acquired deadly surface-to-air missiles.

• How the coalition is increasingly using deadly Reaper drones to hunt and kill Taliban targets by remote control from a base in Nevada.

• How the Taliban have caused growing carnage with a massive escalation of its roadside bombing campaign, which has killed more than 2,000 civilians to date.

None of this is news.

Additionally, the article trades in colored language; presumably in order to magnify the otherwise benign statistical evidence presented.

As far as the overall handling of the war goes: economic development must be carried out in concert with the establishment of a legitimate, nationalist government. Anything else is doomed to failure.

**Phryxis**

That's how drones are supposed to work.

And, by no coincidence, it's how AWESOME is supposed to work.

As dogma has said, it's about economics. Rumor has it that there are mineral deposits all over that place, particularly lithium. We should be handling that. Do an oil spot thing, set up a lithium mine, get paid, give the money to the locals. In no time, they'll be ratting out the Taliban.

**Platuan4th**

Phryxis wrote:
That's how drones are supposed to work.

And, by no coincidence, it's how AWESOME is supposed to work.

Damn straight.

**Ahtman**

**Platuan4th**

Ahtman wrote:

The funniest thing is that up until recently, Air Force Drone Pilots ARE Fighter Pilot candidates. They were pulling something like 1/3 of Pilot candidates for Drone Pilot training. For the Air Force, they were the same department.

**ShumaGorath**

The documents are in many cases quite old, and while they give a more accurate scope of the war they don't seem to reveal any big secrets. The BBC writeup was pretty even on it's take of the document though I'd expect parts of it to get wildly distorted in the months to come.

• How a secret "black" unit of special forces hunts down Taliban leaders for "kill or capture" without trial.

Certainly portions of the coverage are already somewhat galvanized towards a specific political view. Keep in mind this is little different then what conventional forces have been doing for years and is almost identical in function to what reaper drones do daily.

**halonachos**

To me the article is incredibly biased against the war (how shocking), but for the OP's question. The war in afghanistan is being handled decently, we are still inflicting and taking casualties and the enemy still hides in sheep's clothing and still uses civilians as cover. More importantly, the civilians still protect the enemy and that is what needs fixing the most.

At least that's what I think.

**ShumaGorath**

halonachos wrote:To me the article is incredibly biased against the war (how shocking), but for the OP's question. The war in afghanistan is being handled decently, we are still inflicting and taking casualties and the enemy still hides in sheep's clothing and still uses civilians as cover. More importantly, the civilians still protect the enemy and that is what needs fixing the most.

At least that's what I think.

Well we're fighting an entrenched insurgency that draws it's recruits from the local populace. Depending on your viewpoint we actually are fighting the civilian population of the country.

**halonachos**

It does recruit from the local population yes, but not all of the insurgents are Afghanistani in origin. Americans, Syrians, Somalians, etc can be found in the ranks.

I would also argue that we are not fighting the civilian population of the country, but that's not the OP and would side track this instantly.

More troops are needed, along with other things though. Start giving them things they didn't have in abundance and they should start turning our way. Give them running water, electricity, nice roads, all of the basic infrastructure plus some forms of income and we should almost be golden.

**Phryxis**

It does recruit from the local population yes, but not all of the insurgents are Afghanistani in origin.

And those that do fight are not nearly as ideologically driven as the foreign fighters. Most are just the private armies of local warlords who are acting as mercenaries.

Were we to get a functioning economy going, remove the "mercenary warlord" profession from the top of the salary ladder, things will work out better.

We seem a little confused on that front right now, but I appreciate how Obama has dedicated himself to the task. It's one of the few things he's done that I approve of. His focus on Pakistan (while obvious to anybody paying attention) is also a good one, and shows some political courage.

**dogma**

halonachos wrote:
More troops are needed, along with other things though. Start giving them things they didn't have in abundance and they should start turning our way. Give them running water, electricity, nice roads, all of the basic infrastructure plus some forms of income and we should almost be golden.

I don't think the issue is insufficient manpower. Rather, it seems to me that we are simply approaching the problem from the wrong direction; focusing on the creation of a strong central government instead of working to create the conditions in which the local populace would want our help in doing so.

**squilverine**

Well done to Wikileaks for helping to put the lives of service personel into further danger, just what we need.

donkey-caves.

**CptJake**

squilverine wrote:Well done to Wikileaks for helping to put the lives of service personel into further danger, just what we need.

donkey-caves.

Amen. I hope the turdball who leaked the documents get busted and spends many uncomfortable years in Leavenworth.

**SilverMK2**

Most of what appears to have been leaked is just what I imagine business as usual is like in modern warfare, nothing evil or anything.

Just soldiers trying to do their jobs.

But then you don't sell papers if you don't report horror and doom, even when there really isn't all that much of either.

**filbert**

wikileaks can and does serve a useful purpose, in that it is one of the ways in which balance and pressure can be applied to government, industry and private individuals to prevent them overstepping the bounds for fear of exposure. Whistle-blowing is important in any sector (it's why many companies now have a whistle blowing policy to ensure individuals don't fear reprisal for speaking out). However, sometimes there are occasions when it is better just to shut up and let things run.

**heacy hitter**

What the hell do people think there doing complaining about this it is something called war mistakes happen and why should we treat the taliban nicely they are the enemy end of story. Also they already knew that if we went out there Iran and Pakistan would help the taliban. People should plug their brain in and realise the war in Afghanistan is not like COD.

**dogma**

Please do not post again. At least not until you can spell conventional terms.

**Frazzled**

dogma wrote:Please do not post again. At least not until you can spell conventional terms.

We'll handle the moderation thank you very much.

**SilverMK2**

Frazzled wrote:
dogma wrote:Please do not post again. At least not until you can spell conventional terms.

We'll handle the moderation thank you very much.

But who watches the watchman?

**filbert**

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

**reds8n**

SilverMK2 wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
dogma wrote:Please do not post again. At least not until you can spell conventional terms.

We'll handle the moderation thank you very much.

But who watches the watchman?

I must admit to an almost total lack of surprise about the "revelations" these reports tell us. I await, with baited breath, the insights to come with regards to the religious leanings of the Papacy and toiletry habits of ursines.

**Kilkrazy**

SilverMK2 wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
dogma wrote:Please do not post again. At least not until you can spell conventional terms.

We'll handle the moderation thank you very much.

But who watches the watchman?

Me.

**Shadowmarine**

As a us marine,who has been to Afghanistan and is going back soon, I would like to say who cars 200 civilian deaths to nearly a thousand us troops? So what screw them. They harbor the taliban they know where the ieds(improvised explosive device) are that kill and main troops leaving our friends with one leg, or in a box. If we kill a civilian on accident because the coordinates on an air strike are wrong that we fired to support our guys while they are taking machine gun fire. War is ugly and people who have not been there should not judge those who are there, simply trying to get home in one piece. They need not worry about going to jail when returning fire as they make the best judge ment they can as rounds are impacting around them. Watch your friend loose his leg, and tell me if you care about some afgani who was in the wrong place at the wrong time. No one over there wants to kill a civillian, fact. It just happens, when everything else is going wrong. don't unleash the hounds of war and expect it to be pretty.

**Frazzled**

SilverMK2 wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
dogma wrote:Please do not post again. At least not until you can spell conventional terms.

We'll handle the moderation thank you very much.

But who watches the watchman?

Bob, from Accounting.

Hail Bob.

**mattyrm**

Not many "revelations" in that though really is there?

If you dont know pretty much all of that anyway, then you dont know much at all. Espeically the 4 bullet points, the Taliban increasingly use roadside bombs eh? Im glad someone told us.

Oh and "the US covered up evidence that the Taliban have acquired deadly surface-to-air missiles"

How did they cover that up? On my last tour every fortnight we would get told "the Taliban may have been given anti aircraft weapons by the Pakistanis or Iranian intelligence services"

Pretty much every single thing on there is widely known anyway, and its all open source gak or i wouldnt be mentioning it.

I think the Guardian just like to whinge about war.

**1-UP**

Agree, nothing new here.

I don't have any particular problem with "leaks". I actually daresay we need MORE leaks because I'm not especially happy with the direction and logic our military and politicians have implemented the last 10 or so years. While I can appreciate some material such as spies/informants and items that can expose them needs to be kept classified, I also think that "this information puts our servicemen at risk" has become the pat answer to anything. You know what else puts servicemen at risk? Starting wars for bs reasons (We've had 10 years to find these WMD's...).

Iraq looks like it might be stabilizing. If we're lucky they'll get their gak sorted out and become somewhat...safe? Could break either way though. Afghanistan is looking more and more like a centralized government is simply untenable at the moment. Obama probably has a couple of more years he can float troops out there tops and I just don't see a decent government being installed before then.

**Frazzled**

Leaks... drinking a gallon of coffee in the morning...is there a relationship?