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 docdoom77 wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/09/new-warhammer-40000-characters-may9gw-homepage-post-4/

Huh, interesting.
Looks like Magnus has at least 12 wounds then.

To counter the fact that these Characters cannot join units and “hide” from enemy fire, there is a rule in the Shooting phase that means you can’t target a Character unless they are the closest enemy model. This represents the difficulty in picking out individuals amidst the maelstrom of battle and applies to all Characters with a Wounds characteristic of 10 or less, including things that previously might not have benefited from any protection.

Ohh I like that. Might make non-flying Daemon Princes usable again, assuming they have less than 10 wounds.

 Ragnar Blackmane wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:

Vorian wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
At T7 and 'everything can hurt everything', I'm not sure that 8th will turn out to be 'The Return of the Dreadnought' Edition, unfortunately.

Totally depending on points

They'll be over costed because they always are. Two things are constant in Space Marines which are Terminators and Dreadnoughts suck.

Well good thing that all the factions and races get a rules and profile reset, including points. "X is going to be like that because it always has been" isn't going to work as an argument when we have already seen that they are willing to radically overhaul the entire game in completely new ways.

Won't even bother to reply to Alpharius' "but everything will hurt everything. that's really bad for Dreads" statement because we have been going over the math over and over and over again and we still get this one liner after emperor knows how many pages. Considering how efficiently all those bolters and lasguns are murdering MCs right now, I am sure Dreads will suffer massively from them compared to losing all the vehicle chart and hull point handicaps they have right now *rollseyes*. Especially if you throw in 2+ saves with cover.

Well, 1) good thing I didn't actually say that? and 2) Thanks for replying anyway?

So yes, this thread is almost impossible to Moderate, aside from the more egregious incidences of Rule #1 being trampled on...

Kroot Shaper is confirmed to be a character.

Intriguing.

Character change looks OK - if they also required half the unit to be in range of the character for the Aura power to work I'd actually be pleased, but I think that's a bridge too far.

Well that's interesting. Elephant in the room is still the fate of stuff like Tyrant Guard etc.

Characters can't be shot unless they're closest or have 10+ wounds, can pile into nearby assaults and often get keyword bubbles of effect. Sounds great! It's basically the same as joining a unit now, but you can't attach independent characters to each other, and don't have to worry about majority toughness, psychic powers buffing the unit+character, etc. A surprisingly subtle but hopefully effective change. It definitely fixes my worries about character sniping. I think this is an elegant solution. Also, the keyword bubbles, expected though they were, should hopefully make armies a little more fluffy than they used to be.

More weapon profiles tomorrow - who wants to bet on seeing the meltagun, plasma gun and gauss rules (they're the most requested on FB)!

I like it, but I believe the Heroic Intervention may need a bit more explanation.

So characters behave how most people predicted.

Interesting that being 10 wounds or greater makes you targetable.

I wonder if all monstrous creatures will have a minimum of 10 wounds then

Character placing is going to be key now. Curious to see how deep strike will work. I expect to see a lot of deep strikers configured for character killing if someone gets careless with their characters.

But also hooray! No more deathstars

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
Kroot Shaper is confirmed to be a character.

Intriguing.

Did you expect them not to be?

They're characters now. Purchased as part of a unit, but still a character unit type.

 obsidianaura wrote:
So characters behave how most people predicted.

Interesting that being 10 wounds or greater makes you targetable.

I wonder if all monstrous creatures will have a minimum of 10 wounds then

I suspect, as is the case now, that most monstrous creatures won't be characters, and so that rule won't apply.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
Kroot Shaper is confirmed to be a character.

Intriguing.

Did you expect them not to be?

They're characters now. Purchased as part of a unit, but still a character unit type.

Because all the time in the past they've been a sergeant equivelant?

Caederes wrote:

Zustiur wrote:
I get why they've allowed everything to hurt everything. I don't particularly like it, but I'm willing to accept it. I just find it weird that a space marine has the same chance of hurting a tank as a grot. Or a snotling.
And it gets weirder when you look at things with greater than toughness 10. Against t14 a grot is as good as a plasma gun.

You're not 100% correct.
A Strength 3 gun is only as good as a Strength 4 gun against vehicles of Toughness 5 or lower and Toughness 8 or higher, Toughness 6 to Toughness 7 gives the advantage to a Boltgun.
Additionally, you're not accounting for the Rend and Damage characteristics of the Plasma Gun which do make an impact on how good they are against tanks.

yes, yes I know. I knew both of those points when I wrote it. I was imagining a T10 land raider. Pick another s7 weapon with no rend. It doesn't matter. I still find the concept weird. Once you reach a certain toughness, the stronger person has no benefit over the weaker person. It just doesn't sit comfortably with me.

I was commenting it because it's a factor I haven't seen much in the continual back and forth on this topic, despite reading 90÷~ of the thread.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
Kroot Shaper is confirmed to be a character.

Intriguing.

Did you expect them not to be?

They're characters now. Purchased as part of a unit, but still a character unit type.

I suppose I meant as a model independent of the unit (though rereading it, i suppose that isn't actually confirmed).

the Character rules look good so far

How the heck is Robby G. hiding in the middle of a Space Marine army? The dude is twice as tall as the rest of them, with a giant flaming sword!

"I can't get a clean shot at his legs!"

If a character cant join a unit do you think they'll change transport rules?

I don't think they'll want to force your character or unit run along side the transport whilst the other is carried.

Maybe this will mean that a transport can carry multiple units.

I'm actually ok with this from a crunch perspective, but honestly it takes a bit of the thematic element away for me.

I know for all intents and purposes, they can still be "with" a squad. But some part of me will always be thinking about how my Interrogator-Chaplain is hanging out near his squad instead of with them.

Not super important in the grand scheme of things, simply a personal issue, but it's definitely going to bother me for a while.

As my friend put it "Like Abbadon and the bringers of despair, now it's just Abbadon in close proximity to the bringers."

Tyran wrote:
Are you people aware that you can cripple a tank with small arms right? A tank is far more than simple armor, it has plenty of fragile bits that it needs to function like view ports.

Most tanks from, like, early WW2 onwards don't really have that many fragile parts. The view ports were usually periscopes with tough glass protecting them, so shooting a view port wouldn't hurt anyone inside. If a view port did get shot out, several spares would be carried within the tank and could be swapped out from the inside so no one would have to jump out under enemy fire to replace one. See this video at 2:30....

https://youtu.be/-4JQbgccR4Y?t=2m31s

I'm guessing there were a lot of folks that were good shots with a rifle back then, or machine guns that could spray a lot of bullets in a short amount of time, so tanks were designed as best possible to be immune to small arms fire.

Of course infantry was still deadly to tanks, if infantry got too close they often carried an array of effective short ranged anti tank weapons, which is why tanks would typically not run around on their lonesome without friendly infantry support to keep the enemy infantry at arm's length.

 obsidianaura wrote:
If a character cant join a unit do you think they'll change transport rules?

I don't think they'll want to force your character or unit run along side the transport whilst the other is carried.

Maybe this will mean that a transport can carry multiple units.

I think the new Sky Dwarf vehicles can in AOS but away from my book.

Ruin wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
Kroot Shaper is confirmed to be a character.

Intriguing.

Did you expect them not to be?

They're characters now. Purchased as part of a unit, but still a character unit type.

Because all the time in the past they've been a sergeant equivelant?

Not all the time. Kroot Mercenary list had them available as HQ choices in a "Shaper Council" or as a "Master Shaper".

In any regards, they're not the "sergeant equivalent" at this point. They're more of a "Veteran Sergeant" equivalent--a point costed upgrade with a special rule/loadout.

My friend just made a good point.

What about situations where you want your character to charge in with a squad, but he rolls badly on the charge?

Is that just a part of the game now? Where your character's support in a fight isn't guaranteed.

I know they have their Heroic Intervention, but I imagine it can only go so far.

Can any AoS players weigh in here? What's your experience in this regards?

Ruin wrote:
Well that's interesting. Elephant in the room is still the fate of stuff like Tyrant Guard etc.

Can be easily represented with extra synergies. E.g. extra buffs given to the "bodyguard unit" by the character and vice versa, to adding extra bonuses or even absorbing wounds directed at the character if the bodyguard is in the same combat. Same with every other bodyguard/retinue style unit.

Hopefully also eliminates non-independent characters that are part of a unit and the constant imbalance we had between them and independent characters (e.g. non-IC characters like Mordrak or Arjac having been way better than ICs in 5th edition [cough, wound allocation shenigans, cough], then the exact opposite being the case in the 6th and AFAIR 7th).

 Jambles wrote:
How the heck is Robby G. hiding in the middle of a Space Marine army? The dude is twice as tall as the rest of them, with a giant flaming sword!

"I can't get a clean shot at his legs!"

That's what centurions are for. Failing that, the marines could always stand on each other's shoulders.

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
Kroot Shaper is confirmed to be a character.

Intriguing.

Did you expect them not to be?

They're characters now. Purchased as part of a unit, but still a character unit type.

I suppose I meant as a model independent of the unit (though rereading it, i suppose that isn't actually confirmed).

I mean, I think it's pretty definitive that they namedropped him in the "Characters" article and goes on to talk about how Characters can't join units.

It's not a bad thing. If nothing else, it makes me excited to see if they have more stuff planned for Kroot seeing as how the Shaper is mentioned as buffing Kroot units within a certain range.

Mr Morden wrote:

 obsidianaura wrote:
If a character cant join a unit do you think they'll change transport rules?

I don't think they'll want to force your character or unit run along side the transport whilst the other is carried.

Maybe this will mean that a transport can carry multiple units.

I think the new Sky Dwarf vehicles can in AOS but away from my book.

They can, I suspect it will be similar.

Nah Man Pichu wrote:My friend just made a good point.

What about situations where you want your character to charge in with a squad, but he rolls badly on the charge?

Is that just a part of the game now? Where your character's support in a fight isn't guaranteed.

I know they have their Heroic Intervention, but I imagine it can only go so far.

Maybe it'll just have to be one of those things you plan for. Keep a couple units around your character, charge one in, roll the Character, if he fails, keep the other units around to bodyguard him.

I'm really not worried about that, personally.

This really does seem to be the "Too Hard Basket" edition of 40K.

"There was a problem with X, but rather than fixing X, we're just getting rid of out and instituting Y! Enjoy Y. Don't ever think about X again!"

Deathstars were bad, so let's completely remove the concept of characters joining/leading units rather than putting measures in place that solve the Deathstar problem.

 Jambles wrote:
How the heck is Robby G. hiding in the middle of a Space Marine army? The dude is twice as tall as the rest of them, with a giant flaming sword!

"I can't get a clean shot at his legs!"

That's why you need new, bigger, übermarines!

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:
My friend just made a good point.

What about situations where you want your character to charge in with a squad, but he rolls badly on the charge?

Is that just a part of the game now? Where your character's support in a fight isn't guaranteed.

I know they have their Heroic Intervention, but I imagine it can only go so far.

Can any AoS players weigh in here? What's your experience in this regards?

If they fail then they fail. Most will also be giving off force multipliers like they mentioned in the article so if it takes until next turn to get them in it isn't as big of a deal (and they'll get to swing first).