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Vorian wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
At T7 and 'everything can hurt everything', I'm not sure that 8th will turn out to be 'The Return of the Dreadnought' Edition, unfortunately.

Totally depending on points

They'll be over costed because they always are. Two things are constant in Space Marines which are Terminators and Dreadnoughts suck.

 Alpharius wrote:
At T7 and 'everything can hurt everything', I'm not sure that 8th will turn out to be 'The Return of the Dreadnought' Edition, unfortunately.

There's a lot of units that were in the same boat as Dreadnoughts, where they were never really super effective to begin with but the lack of any real protections for them since they were vehicles rather than MCs/GMCs that they just kind of ceased to exist in the minds of players.

Provided they're pointed correctly, it doesn't really matter that "everything can hurt everything" since they actually get a save to begin with now.

 Shuma-Gorath wrote:
I just find it unrealistic which disappoints me. If I walk up to a tank today and shoot it with a revolver it won't do anything. If 100 people walk up to a tank and shoot it with a revolver, that tank isn't going to explode.

This game has magic, chaos gods, creatures that are anatomically impossible, and altered human giants in power armor.

Where does realism fit in?

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Shuma-Gorath wrote:
I just find it unrealistic which disappoints me. If I walk up to a tank today and shoot it with a revolver it won't do anything. If 100 people walk up to a tank and shoot it with a revolver, that tank isn't going to explode.

This game has magic, chaos gods, creatures that are anatomically impossible, and altered human giants in power armor.

Where does realism fit in?

It's the basis for everything, actually. Unless you want to believe a single stone thrown by a five year old can single handedly slay say, Kharn or make a Leviathan go kablooey.

You must always have something to build from - be it a semblance of reality, something that is already established and that you (the player/reader, etc) can relate to. That's how you know that "magic, chaos gods, creatures that are anatomically impossible, and altered human giants in power armor" are "special" so to say, because you have something established as real and they are a part from it.

Are you people aware that you can cripple a tank with small arms right? A tank is far more than simple armor, it has plenty of fragile bits that it needs to function like view ports.

 Kirasu wrote:

Vorian wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
At T7 and 'everything can hurt everything', I'm not sure that 8th will turn out to be 'The Return of the Dreadnought' Edition, unfortunately.

Totally depending on points

They'll be over costed because they always are. Two things are constant in Space Marines which are Terminators and Dreadnoughts suck.

But 2 Wounds each!!! So for that, you will need to pay double the points

But really, the whole topic on "OMG WHY CAN A LASGUN HURT A TANK?!?!!" is really getting old. Deal with it, or play 7th

 Alpharius wrote:
At T7 and 'everything can hurt everything', I'm not sure that 8th will turn out to be 'The Return of the Dreadnought' Edition, unfortunately.

Even with 5+ wounding, you still need quite a lot of shots to go through the 3+ save (or 2+ in cover) and all the wounds. And it doesn't stop at dreadnoughts, all vehicles are a lot more resilient in the future. But of course, the full picture remains to be seen. That's just my view on what we know currently. Also stuff like terminators will be a menace when they are mostly wounded only on 3+, get min. 3 to 4+ save against almost everything and have double the amount of wounds.

(Funnily enough, heavy weapons, terminators and vehicles were the main ups in the CSM primer as well )

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
At T7 and 'everything can hurt everything', I'm not sure that 8th will turn out to be 'The Return of the Dreadnought' Edition, unfortunately.

There's a lot of units that were in the same boat as Dreadnoughts, where they were never really super effective to begin with but the lack of any real protections for them since they were vehicles rather than MCs/GMCs that they just kind of ceased to exist in the minds of players.

Provided they're pointed correctly, it doesn't really matter that "everything can hurt everything" since they actually get a save to begin with now.

Also, unless Force or something similar sticks around, Dreads can't be 1 shotted now.

eedden wrote:
Is this thread even moderated anymore or is insaniak just feeding the fire till it all burns down?

Something like that, I think.

Personally, I'm looking forward to this edition, as I'll be putting 200 Imperial Guard Conscripts on the table.

Can't wait to blow away Land raiders with massed lasgun fire

 jreilly89 wrote:

Also, unless Force or something similar sticks around, Dreads can't be 1 shotted now.

"now"
just wait for Melter rules (maybe 2D6 damage) or actual TK weapons (guess 4D6 damage?)

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Personally, I'm looking forward to this edition, as I'll be putting 200 Imperial Guard Conscripts on the table.

Can't wait to blow away Land raiders with massed lasgun fire

You will need far more lasguns than that to have any realistic chance to kill a Landraider.

Tyran wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Personally, I'm looking forward to this edition, as I'll be putting 200 Imperial Guard Conscripts on the table.

Can't wait to blow away Land raiders with massed lasgun fire

You will need far more lasguns than that to have any realistic chance to kill a Landraider.

I'd get used to these lasgun/landraider posts, it's gonna be a couple of months at least until people get bored of the hyperbole and it becomes just another 'this edition is' joke.

I wouldn't have thought that the wounding system was going to be the sticking point for the vocal minority, but there it is. I honestly figured it was going to be the changes to the statline that would really ruffle feathers.

It ruffled feathers in AoS - I don't see why it wouldn't be the same in 40k.

 Jambles wrote:

Tyran wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Personally, I'm looking forward to this edition, as I'll be putting 200 Imperial Guard Conscripts on the table.

Can't wait to blow away Land raiders with massed lasgun fire

You will need far more lasguns than that to have any realistic chance to kill a Landraider.

I'd get used to these lasgun/landraider posts, it's gonna be a couple of months at least until people get bored of the hyperbole and it becomes just another 'this edition is' joke.

I wouldn't have thought that the wounding system was going to be the sticking point for the vocal minority, but there it is. I honestly figured it was going to be the changes to the statline that would really ruffle feathers.

My post was tongue in cheek.

I like the look of some the 40k models we've had recently, but I'll probably stick to Bolt Action, and wish 8th edition and its fans well.

The silly thing is that a few weeks ago everyone complained on how tough were Monstrous Creatures compared to vehicles. Vehicles now are getting stats that would have been broken last edition (T7 8W dread? T8 W18 Morkanaut?) and suddenly they are the most fragile thing.

Tyran wrote:
The silly thing is that a few weeks ago everyone complained on how tough were Monstrous Creatures compared to vehicles. Vehicles now are getting stats that would have been broken last edition (T7 8W dread? T8 W18 Morkanaut?) and suddenly they are the most fragile thing.

Don't get this started again! We only just managed to reach consensus like two pages back, and even then it was just a ceasefire!

 Kirasu wrote:

Vorian wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
At T7 and 'everything can hurt everything', I'm not sure that 8th will turn out to be 'The Return of the Dreadnought' Edition, unfortunately.

Totally depending on points

They'll be over costed because they always are. Two things are constant in Space Marines which are Terminators and Dreadnoughts suck.

Well good thing that all the factions and races get a rules and profile reset, including points. "X is going to be like that because it always has been" isn't going to work as an argument when we have already seen that they are willing to radically overhaul the entire game in completely new ways.

Won't even bother to reply to Alpharius' "but everything will hurt everything. that's really bad for Dreads" statement because we have been going over the math over and over and over again and we still get this one liner after emperor knows how many pages. Considering how efficiently all those bolters and lasguns are murdering MCs right now, I am sure Dreads will suffer massively from them compared to losing all the vehicle chart and hull point handicaps they have right now *rollseyes*. Especially if you throw in 2+ saves with cover.

 Jambles wrote:

I'd get used to these lasgun/landraider posts, it's gonna be a couple of months at least until people get bored of the hyperbole and it becomes just another 'this edition is' joke.

I wouldn't have thought that the wounding system was going to be the sticking point for the vocal minority, but there it is. I honestly figured it was going to be the changes to the statline that would really ruffle feathers.

Well said.

Tyran wrote:

You will need far more lasguns than that to have any realistic chance to kill a Landraider.

realistic chance?
this edi will be all about gambling, we don't need realistic chances and average results

'Broken last edition'

But this is a new edition. What a strange comment.

Also, y'all need to calm down, take your dried frog pills, and remember: (a) it's happening, deal with it and (b) it's a game.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

I like the look of some the 40k models we've had recently, but I'll probably stick to Bolt Action, and wish 8th edition and its fans well.

I already ordered 2 boxes of Perry DAK and a Rubicon Tiger
now just hope that the plastic DAK Bikes from Rubicon will be released soon

 kodos wrote:
this edi will be all about gambling, we don't need realistic chances and average results

You are a quite bad gambler.

Tyran wrote:
The silly thing is that a few weeks ago everyone complained on how tough were Monstrous Creatures compared to vehicles. Vehicles now are getting stats that would have been broken last edition (T7 8W dread? T8 W18 Morkanaut?) and suddenly they are the most fragile thing.

In fairness, we didn't have lascannons doing D6 wounds last edition either.

But yeah, small arms are going to be about as threatening to tanks as a kid with a potato gun.

When do they publish the Character info - be nice to have something new to "discuss".

Tyran wrote:

 kodos wrote:
this edi will be all about gambling, we don't need realistic chances and average results

You are a quite bad gambler.

All on red! All on red!

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:


It's the basis for everything, actually. Unless you want to believe a single stone thrown by a five year old can single handedly slay say, Kharn or make a Leviathan go kablooey..

It wouldnt, and it doesent in 8th either.

A single lasgun does not down a landraider ever. There's no way for it too happen. Same with bolters or with grots hitting it with sticks.

What it can do though, its strip the last wound after that raider has been beaten to gak by a bloodthirster, and it can do the same to a leviathan, or kharn.

 insaniak wrote:

 kestral wrote:
"Splitfire means we won't have to deal with small arms used on vehicles..." Huh? Parking lot guard would like a word. When everything can do everything there is really even less incentive to take "balanced" lists and not go for target saturation to try to make some of your opponent's weapons less useful.

Split fire doesn't make the ability of small arms to hurt tanks any less ridiculous, but it does make it less likely that you'll want to bother shooting them at tanks. Without split fire, when your heavy weapon shoots at the tank there's no good reason to not shoot everything else at it as well, on the off-chance that you'll get a lucky shot or two through the armour. Add in split fire, and suddenly there are other targets for the regular guys that they have better odds of actually hurting... so the situations where you would shoot them all at the tank are at least reduced, if not eliminated completely.

It's not perfect, but it's better.

A lot better really. The capacity for some weapons in WH40K to completely destroy a tank always seemed absurd to me. You can shoot at a M1 Abrams all year long with a 9mm and you're never going to hurt it.... except I remember those kids in Afghanistan throwing rocks at MRAP vehicles and breaking off small bits of it or hitting a CROWS system... if a rock busted the main camera or hurt a turret gunner the effectiveness of the vehicle was degraded. If small arms bust an antennae, spot light, smoke launcher... whatever it makes sense to remove "a wound." It also makes sense that even the smallest swarm creatures could slowly tear a large machine apart.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/09/new-warhammer-40000-characters-may9gw-homepage-post-4/

Vehicles killed by Lasguns bugs me less than vehicles not having facing or firing arcs. Consider a devestator squad vs a Predator. Assuming you buy them so that their firepower is roughly similar, both probably have 10 wounds and a 3+ save, and probably start losing effectiveness at around the same point (6 wounds in). The Tank has T7 (or 8?), the Dev's have the rule "All weapons cannot do more than one wound at a time". This is the only major difference. The Devs hold up a bit better vs heavy weapon units, the tank holds up a bit better vs tactical units (which will have imbedded heavy weapons). I could get behind that - you need a heavy support unit, you can take whatever you like as a model without worrying too much. On the other hand, the game needs some kind of tactical depth to hold my interest, and I'm not seeing where that is going to come from at the moment.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Shuma-Gorath wrote:
I just find it unrealistic which disappoints me. If I walk up to a tank today and shoot it with a revolver it won't do anything. If 100 people walk up to a tank and shoot it with a revolver, that tank isn't going to explode.

This game has magic, chaos gods, creatures that are anatomically impossible, and altered human giants in power armor.

Where does realism fit in?

y'know, realistic laser guns shouldn't be able to destroy a tank. y'know, lasers.
and bolters, which fire .75 caliber depleted uranium penetrator rounds. and we definitely have never seen 25mm bushmaster guns annihilate T-55's and T-72's in real life.