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When a Monolith deep-strikes, can it fire its particle whip?

Deep-Striking rule says that when you move cruising speed, you may only fire defensive weapons.

The Monolith Rule says...

Power Matrix: The Necron Monolith is capable of focusing incredible, unearthly energies. The power matrix cannot be disabled by a 'weapon destroyed' result and may be used even if the monolith moves, or is shaken or stunned.

Now, the Power matrix can be used in any given turn to either teleport units through the model, or to fire the particle whip. The Monolith rules specifically allow you to use the Power Matrix when you deep-strike to teleport units through it. The monolith rules for the Power matrix also seem to grant it permission to fire regardless of movement.

So, can it use the Particle Whip when deep-striking?

And if not, why would it be able to use the Power Matrix for one, but not the other?

Gwar and I were having an argument, and neither of us was budging, so I thought I'd put it out to discussion.

Dashofpepper wrote:Gwar and I were having an argument, and neither of us was budging, so I thought I'd put it out to discussion.

Silly Dash!

You cannot use it because all the Monoliths rule lets you do is move and fire. Big Woop. Everything can do that.

It does not let you fire when moving Cruising Speed.

The '...may be used even if it moves' bit is a remnant of previous editions, where Ordnance could not be fired if the vehicle moved.

It doesn't grant permission to fire at any speed... just 'even' if it moves. So the restrictions on what weapons can be fired at any given speed would still apply, as they are more specific.

That being said, allowing it to fire at whatever speed it has moved is in keeping with the idea that the Monolith is supposed to have a bit of an edge on firing big scary weapons... which it lost with the change to Ordnance weapons that allows everyone to fire them on the move. So I would be more than happy to play it that way.

And if not, why would it be able to use the Power Matrix for one, but not the other?

Because one involves firing an Ordnance weapon, and the other doesn't.

I'm really surprised that this was never faqd. Especially when a very clearly written rule about the whole AP1 hit for models under the hole of the... wait a second... my codex says Ordnace... TEMPLATE (hahahaha Gwar!!!) So.... I guess this means we obviously can't fire it at all since the BRB never references Ordnance templates and only blast markers anyway... sad day indeed.

So, in the end it doesn't even matter because it's not a legit weapon anymore . (all said in jest for those who have difficulty discerning textual sarcasm.)

So the short version is that the Monolith rule for move and shoot was to make its ordnance weapon more dangerous for the previous codex rules of not being able to move and fire an ordnance weapon?

And since the Monolith does not have any rules that supercede the cannot fire non-defensive weapons at cruising speed rule, the Particle Whip is in essence un-fireable after a deep strike.

In the spirit of the original rule, I agree with Gwar! and cry alittle bit that my Necrons are nerfed a bit moar.

There was a long drawn out argument about this over on Warseer (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=268112) with (big surprise) no final agreement.

My argument was that the Monolith has to follow the rules for deep strike (if it deep strikes).
That says vehicles that deep strike count as moving at cruising speed.
Vehicles that are not fast or walkers cannot fire any weapons if they move at cruising speed.
The particle whip is an ordnance weapons (from the Necron Codex and the GW FAQ).
So the particle whip cannot be fired if the Monolith deep strikes.
However, the power matrix can be used to teleport a Necron unit or bring a unit of warriors in from reserve.

NEC.21C.01 – Q: Does a Deep Striking Monolith count as moving at Cruising Speed and if so what weapons may it fire that turn?
A: Yes, a Monolith counts as having moved at Cruising Speed the turn it Deep Strikes and may therefore not fire its Gauss Flux Arc although it can still fire the Particle Whip [clarification].

So the INAT got another one wrong, based on what the rules actually say. What's your point?

No the Codex trumps BgB rules and the Codex states you can fire the Particle Whip even if you moved. Very, clearly written. The only people arguing otherwise are those that dislike the Monoliths rules.

NecronLord3 wrote:No the Codex trumps BgB rules and the Codex states you can fire the Particle Whip even if you moved. Very, clearly written. The only people arguing otherwise are those that dislike the Monoliths rules.

-Sigh- It says you can fire if you moved. Big deal. You know what else can fire if it moved? Everything else.

It doesn't let you fire the Whip when you Deep Strike. Sorry, but you can't.

And for the record, Codex > Rulebook isn't true.

NecronLord3 wrote:No the Codex trumps BgB rules and the Codex states you can fire the Particle Whip even if you moved. Very, clearly written. The only people arguing otherwise are those that dislike the Monoliths rules.

Incorrect. Hell I dont care about the monolith, it is irrelvant when i play necrons - i kill tyhe necrons and the mono goes away.

You can fire when moving. Now find a line giving you explicit permission to fire when moving at cruising speed, a more specific prohibition than your general permission.

You are also looking for Specific beats General, otherwise SA would not beat WBB (it does, by thte way)

NecronLord3 wrote:No the Codex trumps BgB rules and the Codex states you can fire the Particle Whip even if you moved. Very, clearly written. The only people arguing otherwise are those that dislike the Monoliths rules.

No, more specific trumps more general. So without a specifc statement in the Monolith rule that it can fire when moving at Cruising speed (see PotMS for an example of one that has this sort of specific statement), then the more specific 'cannot shoot at cruising speed' trumps the less specific 'can move and shoot'.

In addition. Why was the Monolith given that rule. Simply put, it was in place to allow the Monolith to move and fire Ordnance when no one else could. We now have rules stating that anything can move and shoot Ordnance, right? So that means the Monolith move and shoot rule falls under this statement from the GW Main Rules FAQ:

Q. If my Codex includes some options (or other
rules) that seem to have no effect in the new
edition (like the Thornback biomorph, which
makes the model count as double the number of
models for the purposes of outnumbering the
enemy in combat resolution), are you going to
publish an errata to change them to something
else that does work?
A. No, if an option (or a rule) clearly has no
effect, like in the case of the example above, it
simply does nothing. We think it’s simpler to just
leave it until the next edition of the Codex rather
than change its effects through an errata.

So to review. More specific trumps more general, old rule replaced and has no effect. Nuff said?

NecronLord3 wrote:No the Codex trumps BgB rules and the Codex states you can fire the Particle Whip even if you moved. Very, clearly written. The only people arguing otherwise are those that dislike the Monoliths rules.

It doesn't say that at all. The Codex says the power matrix can be used even if the monolith moves. It then goes on to say it can be used in one of two ways. One is used as a teleporter and the other is as a weapon.

There is nothing in the Necron Codex or Necron FAQs that specifically says the particle whip may be fired if the Monolith moves at cruising speed.

The gauss flux arcs can't be fired either. Both are weapons. Both are listed on page 22 of the Necron codex under "Necron Weapons".

Vehicles that are neither fast nor walkers cannot fire any weapons if they moved at cruising speed. BRB page 58.

Deep striking vehicles count as moving at cruising speed. BRB page 95.

Those are the relevant rules that say a Monolith cannot fire.

Please provide the rules quote that allows the Monolith to fire the particle whip if the Monolith moves at cruising speed.

1. The only place anyone would find a RAW rule like yours NecronLord3, is on page 21, under Deep Strike in the Monolith's Deep Strike special rules. Or in the the Necron armoury below the section Particle Whip.

2. I'm a necron player not arguing and disliking the Monolith's rules. So, sorry to NecronLord3, and others, but the rule isn't there.

3. If your're getting confused, the monolith's deep strike rule is about reserved necrons coming through the monolith portals into play, not the monolith deep striking itself.

I rest my case.

I'm sorry but the codex covers this quite well. If you move you can fire and the INAT FAQ agrees which is used at every tournament I play in.

So play how you like to rules lawyer it, but it works fine for me and every player I play against.

NecronLord3 wrote:I'm sorry but the codex covers this quite well.

Which is why we are arguing about it. <sarcasm>

If you move you can fire and the INAT FAQ agrees which is used at every tournament I play in.

So by that logic if you DON'T move you can't fire? Or are you going to try and argue that too?

So play how you like to rules lawyer it, but it works fine for me and every player I play against.

Rules Lawyer ≠ Playing by the Rules.

NecronLord3 wrote:I'm sorry but the codex covers this quite well. If you move you can fire and the INAT FAQ agrees which is used at every tournament I play in.

So play how you like to rules lawyer it, but it works fine for me and every player I play against.

No, the codex covers quite well how it worked in 3rd edition 40K. However, these days, most of us play 5th ed. And the rules have changed. And sure, my groupd plays by the INAT, as do many of the tourneys I attend, altho lately that has been dropping due to TOs dissatisfaction with multiple rulings.

But INAT is not the issue here. The rules are. And the rules say that a vehicle that travels at Cruising speed may not fire unless it is A) a Fast vehicle or B) has a special rule that specifically allows it to do so. The Monolith has neither, therefor it cannot shoot. It's really that simple. Argue it all you want, try to twist the codex phrasing so taht moves means moves at all speeds, whatever. Doesn't matter, the rules are what they are and they say that the Monolith may not deep strike and fire any weapons.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:No the Codex trumps BgB rules and the Codex states you can fire the Particle Whip even if you moved. Very, clearly written. The only people arguing otherwise are those that dislike the Monoliths rules.

Incorrect. Hell I dont care about the monolith, it is irrelvant when i play necrons - i kill tyhe necrons and the mono goes away.

You can fire when moving. Now find a line giving you explicit permission to fire when moving at cruising speed, a more specific prohibition than your general permission.

You are also looking for Specific beats General, otherwise SA would not beat WBB (it does, by thte way)

See, this is my problem with this argument.

General rule: You cannot fire when moving cruising speed.
Monolith Rule: You may fire even when moving.

You're saying, "It doesn't give you explicit permission to fire when moving at cruising speed."
Well, it also doesn't give explicit permission to fire when sitting still. Or when moving combat speed. Or cruising speed. Or flat out. or deep striking. Or rotating. Or when it moved 2.5".

All of those are encompassed into the word "Moving." If the monolith did any of those things, it has moved. According to the Necron Codex, it may still fire its particle whip after having done so.

The thing is, "Moving" is not the same as "Moving Cruising Speed", so you cannot argue Specific > General, because you don't have rules that interact.

Sorry Dash I have to agree with Gwar on this one. The rules for the Monolith simply let it fire if it moves. It just so happens that all vehicles can fire when they move (as per restrictions on speed). If the rule said 'regardless of how far it moved' or something along those lines it might be different, but as it stands you have permission to do something you could have done anyway.

Dashofpepper wrote: See, this is my problem with this argument.

General rule: You cannot fire when moving cruising speed.
Monolith Rule: You may fire even when moving.

This is in error. Nowhere does the Necron Codex say the particle whip may fire if the monolith moves. As I posted above, the Codex only says the power matrix may be used if the Monolith moves.
A Monolith moving at cruising speed can still use the power matrix to teleport units of Necrons.

Dashofpepper wrote:You're saying, "It doesn't give you explicit permission to fire when moving at cruising speed."
Well, it also doesn't give explicit permission to fire when sitting still. Or when moving combat speed. Or cruising speed. Or flat out. or deep striking. Or rotating. Or when it moved 2.5".
All of those are encompassed into the word "Moving." If the monolith did any of those things, it has moved. According to the Necron Codex, it may still fire its particle whip after having done so.

The BRB page 57 says a vehicle that's stationary can bring its full firepower to bear.

Is the Monolith a vehicle? Then it can bring its full firepower to bear if it stands still. The main rules give it permission.
Can it fire the particle whip and the gauss flux arc projectorsin the same turn? No because the particle whip is an ordnance weapon, and the monolith must follow the rules for ordnance weapons on the same page in the rulebook which says if the vehicle fires an ordnance weapon, no other weapons may be fired.
Can the Monolith move up to 6" and fire the particle whip? Sure, the chart on page 73 spells it out.

The Monolith special rules do not have to give explicit permission to fire the particle whip if it is sitting still, or moving up to combat speed. It gets these permissions from the rules. No vehicle (or other unit) needs codex permission to move, the main rulebook grants it.

But to fire when moving at cruising speed, it would need specific permission like the Land Raider, and this it does not have.

I agree with Dash, and play it that way. People bring up PoTMS as an example but don't realize that GW is only providing examples of situations that PoTMS overrides. The monoliths rule just fails to make this example except where it says that the whip can be fired even if shaken/stunned (which I believe is separate from the move and shoot bit anyway).

No, the Monolith rule is an outdated rule that no longer applies. Really.

Why has no one cited the faq which says we can use the particle whip after deepstrike but not the gfa...

Marshal_Gus wrote:Why has no one cited the faq which says we can use the particle whip after deepstrike but not the gfa...

Ummm, because it doesn't exist...............

Edit: Unless you're talking about INAT? If so, see above.

Do you move your monolith 12" ? you move it 6 bexcause thats how far it can move with the rules it has, so moving and fire applies to your 6" move. Deep strike clearly states that you are moving at MORE than 6 correct ? so she us a rule that says you can move 12" and fire and I will gladly agree.

mobirds4all wrote:Do you move your monolith 12" ? you move it 6 bexcause thats how far it can move with the rules it has, so moving and fire applies to your 6" move. Deep strike clearly states that you are moving at MORE than 6 correct ? so she us a rule that says you can move 12" and fire and I will gladly agree.

No, Deep Strike says you moved Cruising Speed.

One WAY to do this is to move more than 6". Another is to Deep Strike.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Marshal_Gus wrote:Why has no one cited the faq which says we can use the particle whip after deepstrike but not the gfa...

Because the INAT Faq has as much weight as my faqs or GW ones?

Gwar! wrote:Because the INAT Faq has as much weight as my faqs or GW ones?

Not if you print them and compare. . .

kirsanth wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Because the INAT Faq has as much weight as my faqs or GW ones?

Not if you print them and compare. . .

Ski-doosh.

Ah, well in that case my 3 FAQs weigh more than all the GWs combined!

Badum-Tish