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Which is more specific: "Moving Any Speed" or "Moving Cruising Speed"?

Modquisiiton on. Warnings have been given. Lets all get back to compliance with Dakka Rule #1. Thanks.

NecronLord3 wrote:The word moves and look up the definition in the English dictionary. You use that in the UK right?

Dude, just stop talking. Please?

It's comments like this that honestly make me ashamed of my own countrymen.

This is why we have a reputation for being loudmouthed, uneducated spoiled brats worldwide.

Cut it out.

Gwar!, I apologize for NecronLord3. We're not all like that, I swear.

That said, you (NecronLord3) are also wrong regarding the rule itself. All you've quoted so far that supports your position is an unofficial source. RAW, the Monolith cannot fire its weapons when moving at cruising speed, as it is not a fast vehicle. Therefore, when arriving via Deep Strike, it cannot fire its particle whip, which is explicitly classified in the Necron codex as a weapon.

Gwar! wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:NecronLord - it isnt even in use at the majority of tournaments in the US, just at the two biggest. Plus, as Gwar! said, you realise 40k is an English game and that, there, possibly JUST POSSIBLY other countries may have tournaments as well?

What are you talking about nos? We English types are much too busy Sipping tea and oppressing the Australians with our Queen to be doing something as vulgar as running tournaments.

We let the Polskis do that.

(Note: THIS IS SARCASM.)

I lol'd


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SaintHazard wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:The word moves and look up the definition in the English dictionary. You use that in the UK right?

Dude, just stop talking. Please?

It's comments like this that honestly make me ashamed of my own countrymen.

This is why we have a reputation for being loudmouthed, uneducated spoiled brats worldwide.

Cut it out.

Gwar!, I apologize for NecronLord3. We're not all like that, I swear.

That said, you (NecronLord3) are also wrong regarding the rule itself. All you've quoted so far that supports your position is an unofficial source. RAW, the Monolith cannot fire its weapons when moving at cruising speed, as it is not a fast vehicle. Therefore, when arriving via Deep Strike, it cannot fire its particle whip, which is explicitly classified in the Necron codex as a weapon.

I second this post... I'm just gonna move to Ireland and hang with the Beasts of War guys :p

@ kirsanth: Neither is more specific, both statements are equally specific. Neither statements can be found in the Necron codex, though. The terminology there is "if the Monolith moves".

NecronLord3 wrote:The power matrix<snip> may be used even if the Monolith moves, is shaken or stunned.

The Monolith may use its matrix in one of the following ways each Necron turn:
1. In the Shooting phase it may discharge the matrix's energy as a particle whip.

The rules give you permission to use Power Matrix when moving. Power Matrix can be used (expressing possibility, but no without restraint) to trigger a Particle Whip. Particle Whip uses, exclusively, the rules detailed on page 14 and in the BRB. The rules on page 14 does not allow Particle Whip to circumvent shooting rules. It may additionally pay to note that the terminology in Power Matrix is distinctly different than the rules in 5th edition.

Like I've said earlier, I'll agree with Dash when it comes to my assessment on how it's intended and how I'd play it, but I'll agree with Gwar! that by RAW it can't use the whip when deep striking.

How can two sets be equally specific when one set contains the other?

Apostle Pat wrote:I think its pretty clear and agree with Gwar!... sorry Dash, sure you can use the power matrix to bring in reserves after deep strike... but unless otherwise specifically said in the codex you can't fire that Whip.

Don't be sorry to me - I'm a "go with the flow" kinda guy.

The purpose of this thread was to see if there was a majority consensus for me to follow, that's all.

kirsanth wrote:How can two sets be equally specific when one set contains the other?

Because I compared them not to each other, but to the point you were trying to make (or, rather, how your post came across as trying to make).

Dashofpepper wrote:

Apostle Pat wrote:I think its pretty clear and agree with Gwar!... sorry Dash, sure you can use the power matrix to bring in reserves after deep strike... but unless otherwise specifically said in the codex you can't fire that Whip.

Don't be sorry to me - I'm a "go with the flow" kinda guy.

The purpose of this thread was to see if there was a majority consensus for me to follow, that's all.

LOL, I'm glad your not like other people on this forum, I follow both you and Gwar so when I saw you two having a debate I had to get in on the hot action.

Honestly, just don't deep strike your monoliths. Look at this way, they're a huge vehicle that will easily hit mishap terrain depending on the board. There's a chance you won't get them in until turn 4 or 5 and that sucks. If you play it where it can't shoot that turn it deep strikes then it's still a target for a full round before you get to use it, same as if it was deployed from the beginning and you had to go second. Plus, if you deep strike it and you have warriors set to go through the portal, they're boned too until the lith shows up and we're back at point 1. Also, it really sucks when you really wish your lith was there for the extra WBB rolls but you rolled a 1 on turn 4 for it to DS in. It's a rarity, I know, but it could make or break your win.

Just my .02

NecronLord3 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
NecronLord - it isnt even in use at the majority of tournaments in the US, just at the two biggest. Plus, as Gwar! said, you realise 40k is an English game and that, there, possibly JUST POSSIBLY other countries may have tournaments as well?

Well to bad the OP is over here where we play by the rules, not over in the UK where Gwar ignores them.

NecronLord3. You said that this rule was clear in the necron codex. Apparently, this rule was from a tournament making a judgement based on their house rules. So it can't be clear in the codex, can it? So, forget about tournaments you've been to, forget about real-life, dictionaries, the lot, just everything except for 40k fantasy wargaming, for this moment. Remember, RAW means RAW in the codices, and the rulebook. Not the TO's special and adapted rulebook for 40K games with a custom twist, the official GW BRB, drafted several times, written, re-written, then typed and published by the GW design team. So to me and others, please stop being rude and misleading (codices don't have 250 pages, am i right or am i right?). Look, we don't mind if someone gets a rule wrong, even the most veteran of gamers and modellers have questions. And that's the whole point of this community.

But we're not a mob to rant all your questions at, we're real people trying to help each other out with our problems, and show off our work and achievements. Whingeing doesn't get you anywhere in life. Nothing else I can really add folks, most of the facts have been stated already, lol.

Kevin949 wrote:Honestly, just don't deep strike your monoliths. Look at this way, they're a huge vehicle that will easily hit mishap terrain depending on the board. There's a chance you won't get them in until turn 4 or 5 and that sucks. If you play it where it can't shoot that turn it deep strikes then it's still a target for a full round before you get to use it, same as if it was deployed from the beginning and you had to go second. Plus, if you deep strike it and you have warriors set to go through the portal, they're boned too until the lith shows up and we're back at point 1. Also, it really sucks when you really wish your lith was there for the extra WBB rolls but you rolled a 1 on turn 4 for it to DS in. It's a rarity, I know, but it could make or break your win.

Just my .02

Well first of all, the Monolith arrives by similar rules to that of a drop pod, does it not? I seem to remember something about it wafting gently to the ground like a downy feather, and thus avoiding terrain and enemy models when scattering. I could be wrong about this, though.

But it can still teleport Warriors and bring them in from reserve, which could be worth it (since although the Lith can't fire, they CAN) to bring it in from reserve just for that purpose.

As to your last point regarding reserve rolls... well, that's why many Cron players have two or more Liths.

Start with one on the field, bring the rest in from reserve.

It has a rule that states that, if it would be DESTROYED by landing on other models, then those models are moved out of the way.

However that doesnt stop it being moved or placed by into reserves, as destoryed is only 1/3rd of the results.

Yup. And even then it only applies to enemy models, not friendly.

SaintHazard wrote:Well first of all, the Monolith arrives by similar rules to that of a drop pod, does it not? I seem to remember something about it wafting gently to the ground like a downy feather, and thus avoiding terrain and enemy models when scattering. I could be wrong about this, though.

But it can still teleport Warriors and bring them in from reserve, which could be worth it (since although the Lith can't fire, they CAN) to bring it in from reserve just for that purpose.

As to your last point regarding reserve rolls... well, that's why many Cron players have two or more Liths.

Start with one on the field, bring the rest in from reserve.

Regardless to the mishap table debate for the lith the monolith still mishaps in terrain as normal.

Yes, you can port warriors through it but only if those warriors became available the same turn the lith comes in, otherwise you gotta wait still. Not to mention though, you can't move the warriors when they come out of the lith from a DS and they're stuck at 12" firing line so it's a tough call to make.

And absolutely, i bring 2 liths to any 1500+pt game, or 3 if it's 2000+. I'm just referencing if you DS all of the liths or only had one and were deep striking that one. I've just personally found it more beneficial to have them on the field from the start for the intimidation factor, drawing fire, creating more objects to hide behind/block LOS with and make my opponent have to rethink his route if he deployed first.

Kevin949 wrote:Regardless to the mishap table debate for the lith the monolith still mishaps in terrain as normal.

Yes, you can port warriors through it but only if those warriors became available the same turn the lith comes in, otherwise you gotta wait still. Not to mention though, you can't move the warriors when they come out of the lith from a DS and they're stuck at 12" firing line so it's a tough call to make.

And absolutely, i bring 2 liths to any 1500+pt game, or 3 if it's 2000+. I'm just referencing if you DS all of the liths or only had one and were deep striking that one. I've just personally found it more beneficial to have them on the field from the start for the intimidation factor, drawing fire, creating more objects to hide behind/block LOS with and make my opponent have to rethink his route if he deployed first.

Until a well-aimed railgun causes your enormous Lith to explode and kill half the Warriors hiding behind it.

It's kind of funny that a vehicle used largely to soak up fire usually doesn't do so well soaking up mine. Railguns FTW.

That said, I do agree with you, I'm just pointing out that your statement doesn't really apply to a competent Necron player - i.e. any Necron player who holds all of his Liths in reserve.

And thank you everyone for the correction regarding Lith deep striking.

Gwar! wrote:Yup. And even then it only applies to enemy models, not friendly.

I'm guessing this means Instant Victory, if the monolith deep strikes on the rest of it's army, huddled around a Necron Lord. Or can the WBB magic still work, bearing in mind the tank is a skimmer. Just checking this, because I haven't used Deep Strike too often.

SaintHazard wrote:
Until a well-aimed railgun causes your enormous Lith to explode and kill half the Warriors hiding behind it.

It's kind of funny that a vehicle used largely to soak up fire usually doesn't do so well soaking up mine. Railguns FTW.

That said, I do agree with you, I'm just pointing out that your statement doesn't really apply to a competent Necron player - i.e. any Necron player who holds all of his Liths in reserve.

And thank you everyone for the correction regarding Lith deep striking.

True, though every game I've played against tau they never destroyed a lith of mine. Even a game against mech tau and I had only 1 lith at the time, didn't get destroyed. Honestly, there's only twice I had one destroyed by an enemy. One was a planetstrike game where the defensive gun fired on it during DS and destroyed it and the other was from the stupid tyranid hive tyrant gun, the str 9 gun that gets a -1 on the damage chart. My friend rolled double 6's. I couldn't believe it.

But yes, you're right, but those situations can happen any time whether you DS or not. I just prefer to get my 24" str 9 blast hits in right from the get go. And the more railgun fire aimed at my liths, the less is aimed at my phase out units and that's one more turn to get my faster units up close.

Reserved or deployed though, both have their advantages and disadvantages. I won't tell someone how to play it, just make suggestions based on my experience. And my experience has been that holding my liths in reserve has always come back to bite me in one fashion or another. And no, I don't claim to be a great necron player, or a great player at all, I've only been at this hobby for about a year now. Maybe a little more.

Gwar! wrote:Yup. And even then it only applies to enemy models, not friendly.

It applies to all models. The Monolith's Deep Strike rule says that it's not destroyed if there are enemy models within 1", and in the next sentence to move any models (not just enemy models) that are in the way.

Although it occurs to me that, as per the Rulebook FAQ ruling on codex special rules affecting enemy models, that would actually mean that while nearby enemy models don't destroy it, you can only move friendly models out of the way, as it doesn't specify that the movement rule applies to enemy models.

I think it's pretty clear what was meant in this case, though. Old codex is old, and needs a certain amount of leeway in its use.

YmeLocSquirrel256 wrote:I'm guessing this means Instant Victory, if the monolith deep strikes on the rest of it's army, huddled around a Necron Lord. Or can the WBB magic still work, bearing in mind the tank is a skimmer. Just checking this, because I haven't used Deep Strike too often.

WBB would never enter into it. If the Monolith didn't have the rule allowing models to be moved out of the way, it would just Mishap. Deep Striking vehicles don't destroy units they land on.

That's the truth... I know once I bring my Crons up to 1500 points I'll be buying one, and another if I ever up them to 2000.

If the Monolith Deep Strikes onto it's own Army, all it does is Deep Strike mishap as normal.

If it lands onto an enemy model, it Deep Strike Mishaps. If you roll a Destroyed, it instead pushes stuff out the way.

Gwar! wrote:If the Monolith Deep Strikes onto it's own Army, all it does is Deep Strike mishap as normal.

"Instead, move any models that are in the way the minimum distance necessary to make space for the Monolith."

Deep Striking onto friendly models pushes them out of the way.

insaniak wrote:

Gwar! wrote:If the Monolith Deep Strikes onto it's own Army, all it does is Deep Strike mishap as normal.

"Instead, move any models that are in the way the minimum distance necessary to make space for the Monolith."

Deep Striking onto friendly models pushes them out of the way.

In the spirit of Lex Luthor:
WROOOOOOOOOONG!

You forgot the first part of the rule there insaniak:

"Because of the sheer mass of the monolith, it is not destroyed if there are enemy within 1" when it arrives. Instead (of being destroyed), move any models that are in the way the minimum distance necessary to make space for the Monolith."

Bold added by me. You cannot do something instead of being destroyed if you don't roll the Destroyed result.

Ok, thanks, I don't use the rule too often (as you can probably tell!) Just checking whether the skimmer rule would override the DS rule at all (because it flies low, but doesn't actually land, unless immobilized (destroyed for other skimmers)).

Gwar! wrote:

insaniak wrote:

Gwar! wrote:If the Monolith Deep Strikes onto it's own Army, all it does is Deep Strike mishap as normal.

"Instead, move any models that are in the way the minimum distance necessary to make space for the Monolith."

Deep Striking onto friendly models pushes them out of the way.

In the spirit of Lex Luthor:
WROOOOOOOOOONG!

You forgot the first part of the rule there insaniak:

"Because of the sheer mass of the monolith, it is not destroyed if there are enemy within 1" when it arrives. Instead (of being destroyed), move any models that are in the way the minimum distance necessary to make space for the Monolith."

Bold added by me. You cannot do something instead of being destroyed if you don't roll the Destroyed result.

Except your bold part does not exist and you always move the enemy units away instead of rolling mishap. Something the INATfaq also agrees with.

NecronLord3 wrote:Except your bold part does not exist and you always move the enemy units away instead of rolling mishap. Something the INATfaq also agrees with.

No, the bold part is called The English Language.

Please, show me how the Americans do something instead of something else without doing the else first. In English it is not possible.

And again, the INAT FAQ has no weight here. The INAT FAQ disguises rules changes as "Clarification" and makes arbitrary rules changes when the RaW is clear without any explanation as to why.

I could go on but I would probably be banned for "Spam" again. In short, stop bringing up the INAT FAQ please.

God the necrons need a new codex!
all mine do now is collect dust!!
come on gw get crackin. there are hungry gods to feed!!!

Gwar! wrote:
Because the INAT Faq has as much weight as my faqs?

No, more.


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Gwar! wrote:

Please, show me how the Americans do something instead of something else without doing the else first. In English it is not possible.

Instead of going to the lake, I am going to the pool. I didn't go to the lake, but I did something instead of it, without doing the else first.

Marshal_Gus wrote:Why has no one cited the faq which says we can use the particle whip after deepstrike but not the gfa...

Because it's a set of rulings, from a set of self-elected people. It gets used at SOME tourneys.
It also makes gross errors. Simple enough?

Can we all just drop the INAT discussion, please? The INAT, whatever your personal opinion of it, is only relevant if you are using it in your own games, or if you are playing in a tournament that is using it. It is not an official source of rules, and so has no bearing on rules discussion here beyond pointing it out as a way that some people choose to play a given rule.