Monolith Power Matrix and Deep Striking

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**insaniak**

WarOne wrote:So the short version is that the Monolith rule for move and shoot was to make its ordnance weapon more dangerous for the previous codex rules of not being able to move and fire an ordnance weapon?

And since the Monolith does not have any rules that supercede the cannot fire non-defensive weapons at cruising speed rule, the Particle Whip is in essence un-fireable after a deep strike.

In a nutshell, yes.

It's vague enough though that it is worth talking it over with your opponent either way. The one extra shot isn't likely to be game-breaking, whichever way you choose to play it.

**YmeLocSquirrel256**

NecronLord3 wrote:I'm sorry but the codex covers this quite well. If you move you can fire and the INAT FAQ agrees which is used at every tournament I play in.

So play how you like to rules lawyer it, but it works fine for me and every player I play against.

At your LGS, i presume?

This is RAW, not house rules.

http://instantrimshot.com/index.php?sound=priceiswrong

And you still haven't proven us wrong as to where this 'rule' is. Just tell us the source you found it from, including the relevant page. If you're telling fibs, just forget it, please.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also one thing from Lorek for you to remember:

Lorek wrote:5. Stick to discussing the rules, not the poster. Phrases like "Rules Lawyer", "Cheater" and "TFG" have no place in rules discussions. Don't depart from rules discussions by attaching value judgments to different interpretations.

I shall say no more.

**Kevin949**

Gwar! wrote:
And for the record, Codex > Rulebook isn't true.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m640095a_FAQ_Planetstrike_Oct2009.pdf

"In general, we say that the rules in codexes trump all other rules"

I know it's for the planetstrike FAQ but that statement holds weight across the game as a whole.

**nosferatu1001**

But only in general. For example Sweeping Advance trumps WBB. Not being able to fire at cruising speed trumps being allowed to use the matrix while moving.

**Gwar!**

Kevin949 wrote:
Gwar! wrote:
And for the record, Codex > Rulebook isn't true.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m640095a_FAQ_Planetstrike_Oct2009.pdf

"In general, we say that the rules in codexes trump all other rules"

I know it's for the planetstrike FAQ but that statement holds weight across the game as a whole.

1) Planetstrike ≠ Normal 40k.
2) FAQ ≠ RaW.
3) If this were true, Sweeping Advance would not work.

**Kevin949**

I don't know how SA got brought into this but I know WBB doesn't trump it as SA doesn't cause wounds and WBB only applies to models that suffer wounds in one fashion or another. Just like a shokk attack gun on double 6's, it doesn't cause wounds, the models are simply removed. same with JoTWW. Regardless, don't know where SA came in.

Gwar, you can resist it all you want but for them to say "all other rules" it's pretty recognizable they are referring to everything.
And if FAQ ≠ RaW then why do they exist? Why did you create yours? Your animosity against GW weighs heavily.

Anywho, everyone I've played against has had no problems allowing the monolith to fire the whip on deep strike entry. And I'll continue to play it that way until the rule changes. As my stand on the subject is that movement is movement regardless to the distance. You "move" at combat, "move" at cruising. Relic of 3rd edition or not, it still says "move and shoot" and deep striking counts as a movement. I see your side of the argument but disagree and am not attempting to sway you either (though I realize it may seem that way).

**NecronLord3**

Gwar! wrote:
Kevin949 wrote:
Gwar! wrote:
And for the record, Codex > Rulebook isn't true.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m640095a_FAQ_Planetstrike_Oct2009.pdf

"In general, we say that the rules in codexes trump all other rules"

I know it's for the planetstrike FAQ but that statement holds weight across the game as a whole.
1) Planetstrike ≠ Normal 40k.
2) FAQ ≠ RaW.
3) If this were true, Sweeping Advance would not work.

GWAR ≠ Right

**Sliggoth**

The problem is that move and shoot is not a blanket statement that lets you move and shoot in EVERY case. Otherwise it would allow the monolith to move and shoot after being shaken...

If there is another rule that restricts the shooting (moving at cruising speed, being shaken) then the monolith cannot shoot. It really is as simple as that.

Sliggoth

**NecronLord3**

Sliggoth wrote:Otherwise it would allow the monolith to move and shoot after being shaken...

Sliggoth

It can shoot after being shaken.

**Mustela**

I think this all means that the Necrons really need a new codex.

That's my two cents.

**YmeLocSquirrel256**

I think we all agree to that Mustela!

Yet NecronLord3, (in all fair seriousness) saying Gwar! isn't right and 'It can shoot after being shaken'...

Where did you obtain the information to know this? And how is Gwar not right? Of course, I know that the Monolith can shoot after being stunned or shaken, because there is no crew on board (apart from any necrons using it as transport). Even after immobilization, or after four WD results (not five) AFAIK (see, i saved you a third of the work).

Ok, I'll be nice this time and give you one more chance. For mine, Gwar's, Dashofpepper's, other people on this thread and plenty of others on other threads, possibly even on google, looking for the final answer (because dash wouldn't have made this thread otherwise), please tell us the place where you think the answer is, and if you have been fibbing all this time, stop it.

And also if you have the time, please explain how Gwar! is wrong. Because you have said that you have the answer, yet it is misleading to many when you just say things, without backing them up.

**Sarigar**

don_mondo wrote:
NecronLord3 wrote:No the Codex trumps BgB rules and the Codex states you can fire the Particle Whip even if you moved. Very, clearly written. The only people arguing otherwise are those that dislike the Monoliths rules.

No, more specific trumps more general. So without a specifc statement in the Monolith rule that it can fire when moving at Cruising speed (see PotMS for an example of one that has this sort of specific statement), then the more specific 'cannot shoot at cruising speed' trumps the less specific 'can move and shoot'.

In addition. Why was the Monolith given that rule. Simply put, it was in place to allow the Monolith to move and fire Ordnance when no one else could. We now have rules stating that anything can move and shoot Ordnance, right? So that means the Monolith move and shoot rule falls under this statement from the GW Main Rules FAQ:

Q. If my Codex includes some options (or other
rules) that seem to have no effect in the new
edition (like the Thornback biomorph, which
makes the model count as double the number of
models for the purposes of outnumbering the
enemy in combat resolution), are you going to
publish an errata to change them to something
else that does work?
A. No, if an option (or a rule) clearly has no
effect, like in the case of the example above, it
simply does nothing. We think it’s simpler to just
leave it until the next edition of the Codex rather
than change its effects through an errata.

So to review. More specific trumps more general, old rule replaced and has no effect. Nuff said?

Don sums it up perfectly. Folks need to remember this codex was written for 3rd edition. Two editions later and rules have changed a bit (as Don pointed out regarding firing Ordnance). Trying to shoehorn every rule from a very outdated codex simply doesn't work and the FAQ addresses it.

**Mahtamori**

The rules state, like some have said, that you may use the matrix (not the whip) even due to some certain conditions, while it is implied to apply to the whip as well. However, stating, under the current rules, that it may use the whip/matrix even if it moved is a truism given that you may use the whip if you moved at combat speed. The line "...result, and may be used even if the Monolith moves, or is shaken..." is insufficient in order to determine if it is exhaustive of all moves possible. Essentially, what it describes is that you may use the particle whip if you move, but it does in no way specify that it removes any limitations, other than a rule which disallow it to use the weapon if it makes a move - such a rule does not exist anymore.

Why is it a truism? It may always use the teleportation application of the power, even if it is not allowed to use the shooting application.

The RAI, I'd argue, is clearer than in most cases, but I can't bring myself to see that is how they've written it.

**NecronLord3**

YmeLocSquirrel256 wrote:I think we all agree to that Mustela! Yet NecronLord3, (in all fair seriousness) saying Gwar! isn't right and 'It can shoot after being shaken'...

Where did you obtain the information to know this? And how is Gwar not right? Of course, I know that the Monolith can shoot after being stunned or shaken, because there is no crew on board (apart from any necrons using it as transport). Even after immobilization, or after four WD results (not five) AFAIK (see, i saved you a third of the work).

Ok, I'll be nice this time and give you one more chance. For mine, Gwar's, Dashofpepper's, other people on this thread and plenty of others on other threads, possibly even on google, looking for the final answer (because dash wouldn't have made this thread otherwise), please tell us the place where you think the answer is, and if you have been fibbing all this time, stop it.

And also if you have the time, please explain how Gwar! is wrong. Because you have said that you have the answer, yet it is misleading to many when you just say things, without backing them up.

NEC.21C.01 – Q: Does a Deep Striking Monolith count as moving at Cruising Speed and if so what weapons may it fire that turn?
A: Yes, a Monolith counts as having moved at Cruising Speed the turn it Deep Strikes and may therefore not fire its Gauss Flux Arc although it can still fire the Particle Whip [clarification].

**nosferatu1001**

So your proof is an unofficial FAQ not in use at the majority of tournaments?

In othere words you have no actual proof. good to know!

**Melchiour**

Tenants of You Make Da Call

"2. The only official sources of information are the current rulebooks and the Games Workshop FAQs."

INAT is not official. Many times the INAT takes some liberty to clarify and make things easier, but it is not official or perfect by any means. Referencing the INAT in a debate about rules is not a strong stance.

**Apostle Pat**

I think its pretty clear and agree with Gwar!... sorry Dash, sure you can use the power matrix to bring in reserves after deep strike... but unless otherwise specifically said in the codex you can't fire that Whip.

**NecronLord3**

Apostle Pat wrote:I think its pretty clear and agree with Gwar!... sorry Dash, sure you can use the power matrix to bring in reserves after deep strike... but unless otherwise specifically said in the codex you can't fire that Whip.

Which it does on page 221.

nosferatu1001 wrote:So your proof is an unofficial FAQ not in use at the majority of tournaments?

In othere words you have no actual proof. good to know!

Sorry, but it is used in a majority of tournaments here. Including, Adepticon and 'Ard Boyz.

**Gwar!**

NecronLord3 wrote:Which it does on page 221.

What? What kind of Necron Codex do you have and who do I need to bribe to get it?

**nosferatu1001**

No, it states you may use it, which is true as you can teleport. It does not say you may fire it.

We are still waiting for your rules quote that specifically overides the restriction on firing when moving at cruising speed. You have so far provided nothing but an INAT FAQ ruling, which is worth nothing in this discussion.

**Gwar!**

NecronLord3 wrote:Sorry, but it is used in a majority of tournaments here. Including, Adepticon and 'Ard Boyz.

Yes, because we all know the USA is the Werld.

Protip: Just because 3 US Tournaments use it, doesn't mean jack. More don't use it than do.

**nosferatu1001**

NecronLord - it isnt even in use at the majority of tournaments in the US, just at the two biggest. Plus, as Gwar! said, you realise 40k is an English game and that, there, possibly JUST POSSIBLY other countries may have tournaments as well?

**NecronLord3**

The power matrix<snip> may be used even if the Monolith moves, is shaken or stunned.

The Monolith may use its matrix in one of the following ways each Necron turn:
1. In the Shooting phase it may discharge the matrix's energy as a particle whip.

**Gwar!**

nosferatu1001 wrote:NecronLord - it isnt even in use at the majority of tournaments in the US, just at the two biggest. Plus, as Gwar! said, you realise 40k is an English game and that, there, possibly JUST POSSIBLY other countries may have tournaments as well?

What are you talking about nos? We English types are much too busy Sipping tea and oppressing the Australians with our Queen to be doing something as vulgar as running tournaments.

We let the Polskis do that.

(Note: THIS IS SARCASM.)

**NecronLord3**

nosferatu1001 wrote:NecronLord - it isnt even in use at the majority of tournaments in the US, just at the two biggest. Plus, as Gwar! said, you realise 40k is an English game and that, there, possibly JUST POSSIBLY other countries may have tournaments as well?

Well to bad the OP is over here where we play by the rules, not over in the UK where Gwar ignores them.

**Apostle Pat**

NecronLord3 wrote:The power matrix<snip> may be used even if the Monolith moves, is shaken or stunned.

The Monolith may use its matrix in one of the following ways each Necron turn:
1. In the Shooting phase it may discharge the matrix's energy as a particle whip.

Ya know my Rhinos can shoot after they move... except when its at cruising speed >.>

**Gwar!**

NecronLord3 wrote:The power matrix<snip> may be used even if the Monolith moves, is shaken or stunned.

The Monolith may use its matrix in one of the following ways each Necron turn:
1. In the Shooting phase it may discharge the matrix's energy as a particle whip.

Sorry, but at this point you are not even making any sense. Repeating what the codex says doesn't change it.

Where does it say there it can Fire after Deep Striking? Or moving CRUISING SPEED?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

NecronLord3 wrote:Well to bad the OP is over here where we play by the rules, not over in the UK where Gwar ignores them.

I always find it funny how in one thread I can be called a "RaW WAAC Meanie who ignores RaI", then be accused of "Ignoring the rules" in another.

**NecronLord3**

Gwar! wrote:
NecronLord3 wrote:The power matrix<snip> may be used even if the Monolith moves, is shaken or stunned.

The Monolith may use its matrix in one of the following ways each Necron turn:
1. In the Shooting phase it may discharge the matrix's energy as a particle whip.
Sorry, but at this point you are not even making any sense. Repeating what the codex says doesn't change it.

Where does it say there it can Fire after Deep Striking? Or moving CRUISING SPEED?

The word moves and look up the definition in the English dictionary. You use that in the UK right?

**Gwar!**

NecronLord3 wrote:The the word move and look up the definition in the English dictionary. You use that in the UK right?

1) Rudeness is not needed. Just because you can't make a coherent argument, doesn't mean you should resort to name calling.

2) Ok, you have a rule that says you can move and shoot. Well done. You also have a rule saying you cannot Deep Strike and Shoot. The Monoliths rule doesn't change this.

**don_mondo**

Doesn't matter where the OP is, the point is that the INAT is not official, the point is that you haven't provided anything saying that the Monoltih may actually FIRE it's weapon(s) after deep striking, the point is that you have zero rules support for your position.

I think the phrase is "Put up or shut up".