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Hi guys, I'm thinking about adding some CC bite to my eldar army and was wondering what I should be going for you think? My options are between banshees, scorpions and harlies I guess. I was thinking about running 6-10 in a squad and I have wave serpents or falcons to use.
I will be coming up against mostly guard, blood angels and necrons, mabe nids. So my question is what should I use do you think and how should I equip and use them?

Thanks

Well BA and Necrons are quite a bit more tougher to put down than you'd expect due to Sanguinary Priests, FnP and WBB, so I would go for the Banshees: Although they're weaker than Scorpions, their Power Weapons can easily negate WBB, FnP etc.

Harlies are pretty choice at the moment, even with the nerf on rending. I run an almost full squad with a pw troupe leader, shadowseer, 2 fusion pistols (great vs. meqs), and kisses all around. Death Jester gets included occassionally for a bit of punch, but only if the unit gets a transport since you really want to be running these guys as quick as you can. They ignore terrain (better than MTC), hit and run, ferocious charge, rend, and veil. While pricey, they're worth every point especially when backed up with a fortune seer to help with the 5++ rolls.

My son played eldar vs. my marines in our last game and he took a full unit of banshees that wiped my terminators off the board, but only because I put them in a bad place and didn't get much shooting against them until after they assaulted. If you run them, I'd make sure that a doom seer is nearby to help counter the S3 vs. T4 that you'll be running up against. I'd give the exarch either mirrorswords or the executioner and maybe warshout. It's not greatly successful, but sometimes you get lucky with the Ld roll.

Haven't used scorps much, but by the numbers they're pretty good against hordes. S4 CC attacks are a moot point up against 3+ saves, but will trim down T3/5+ very handily. While they're not fleet, if you can outflank with them in a good spot they can make short work of guard heavy weapons. I'm a fan of the biting blade, but a claw is pretty nice to have too and Move through Cover can help make up for a lack of fleet.

So, scorpions with their many attacks per turn and heavy armor are good for knock-down, drag out fights. Banshees exist to slam into something and then catch them in a sweeping advance (or finish them off with fearless saves).

Of course, it depends on what your list looks like, but I wouldn't imagine that even equipped as scorpions are, they are all that likely to beat other armies' knock-down, drag out fighters (like ogryn and terminators and the like).

Im parshall towards Banshees myself, but im not entirely sure which would benefit you :/

I like having both options!

Never know when you're going against orks with both mega armor and boy mobz

As a player who opposes Eldar quite a bit, I'd say banshees far more often wreck my day than scorpions.

Both units are trash. Harlequins are OK as a counter-attack unit, but only against "elite" units. They fail against large numbers of baddies.

I've used outflanking scorpions to good effect against SW. 6 to 8 guys with a claw exarch, they're a nasty suprise for most units and vehicles hanging out within 12" of the table sides. They will die to a focussed attack from multiple units, but not before I have killed more than their points back. Last game they killed 5 WG and a battle leader kitted out for cc, with 3 casualties. As already stated Banshees need doom to be effective.

Banshee's need a transport and a farseer to be worthwhile in my experience, Scorpions are not really worth the elite slot though, much better off using banshees, but still, thet need alot of help to be reasonable

What wildstyle said, both units are craptastic. Scorpions are worse than Banshees tho since they suck at what they are supposed to be good at. Even against normal boyz you loose more pts than him.

Scorpions or Banshee. Scorpions do better against horde (ork, IG, Nids) and Banshee do better against Meq.

As for what elites I'd take ... I run 3 5 man units of fire dragons in serpents. After all if i want to have some one in combat i take warlocks on jet bikes. They last longer then banshee or Scorpions; yes they cost a shed lot but hell they're something to be feared.

I will go ahead and run against the grain on this one.

Purely assault Eldar lists do not work particularly well but that is mainly for the fact that Eldar skimmers are not appropriate transports for that style of gaming. If you want to run a competitive list, skip all assault units besides Warlocks. You can work nearly any assault unit into a competitive list but the overall Banshees, Scorpions, Harlequins, and possibly Storm Guardians, are not particularly amazing against equivalent units from other codices.

I personally like Scorpions. They are neat models and they do have a role to serve in many lists, although, many consider them 'garbage' because Eldar are so fragile in general. There is a strong sentiment that T3 just doesn't cut it for most assault units and in many cases that opinion is no less than correct. On the other side of that coin, Eldar attacks with high Ini, hitting first against many infantry units you will encounter. The generally low volume of attacks in most situations, counters the point of Eldar usually hitting first. I don't consider 4 S4 Ini5 attacks per model bad, it is more that Scorpions just have a hard time actually making it into combat from the get-go. Banshees less so and they have a very specific role where Scorpions usually don't.

Banshees will pay for themselves on a regular basis, where Scorpions usually won't. If you're playing to kill what you attack on the first go, Banshees are the better option, even if they are limited by their niche role. Scorpions can keep many things stuck in combat with use of Fortune, or Doom; they are generally a tarpit unit that functions with fewer models, as compared to standard tarpits from other codices. Having fewer models than most tarpits, means that as long as you can mitigate the problem of mobility, Scorpions are better at manipulating assaults. You can basically sculpt a portion of your opponents army if you use Scorpions correctly, meaning that pulling a swarm off of multiple flags is not that difficult overall, considering that Scorpions can stick around to keep the swarm off of those flags for at least two turns in most cases. Add in a Wave serpent, you have one of the best movement limiting combos Eldar can offer. I am not saying this is simple, just that it can be used to great effect and I consider it quite fun.

Harlequins do not fit in well with a mechdar list. Both Harlequins and Scorpions are generally more fit to footslogging, as compared to the other options Eldar has to offer. If you do not play footslogging Eldar and you face SM/variants constantly, Banshees are the better option of the three. A 4+ save on T3 is not bad when you can avoid PWs and hit first. Fortune can be used to buff Banshees to the point where they can serve as sub-par Tarpits. Chances are, you're more likely to find that when Banshees do well, it means that they wipe what they assault, leaving them out in the open, exposed to shooting. Scorpions can find targets that they can use as a shooting barrier, limiting them to a pretty clean-cut defensive role.

If you do play footdar and want to use Harlequins, Stick a Doomseer, Shadowseer, and 4-6 rending Harlies into a squad. Annoy your opponents by reminding them that Harlies can laugh in the face of flamers, dodge shots all game long if they are lucky and you use them appropriately, as well as ignore cover while hiding in it. There are a bunch of advantages for Harlies but as long as they have no access to suitable transports (open-topped ones, basically), their uses are limited to that of a non-competitive list.

Right, I'd agree that scorpions are tarpit units. The problem is that they are a terrible tarpit unit. Farseer witchcraft aren't going to do a whole lot to save them from a demon prince or a dreadnought or a power blob eating them alive. They'd do an okay job against popcorn units, but so does bladestorming...

Given that they have infiltrate, I could see them as a reasonable speedbump in front of a fearless guardian wave, but I don't think many eldar players would be comfortable using them in that role (and even myself, having not played eldar in nearly a decade).

As said for banshees, they catch things in sweeping advances (or kill it outright) or die. As you say, a nice role, but at least it's useful sometimes.

Ailaros wrote:Right, I'd agree that scorpions are tarpit units. The problem is that they are a terrible tarpit unit. Farseer witchcraft aren't going to do a whole lot to save them from a demon prince or a dreadnought or a power blob eating them alive. They'd do an okay job against popcorn units, but so does bladestorming...

When Scorpions encounter those units what you say is true. The real problem is when you are facing bikers, FoF, and JPs, everything else is relatively easy to work around by comparison.

Given that they have infiltrate, I could see them as a reasonable speedbump in front of a fearless guardian wave, but I don't think many eldar players would be comfortable using them in that role (and even myself, having not played eldar in nearly a decade).

As said for banshees, they catch things in sweeping advances (or kill it outright) or die. As you say, a nice role, but at least it's useful sometimes.

For the cost of one WG you get two Scorpions and the extra points after that cost (over a whole squad), leaves room to comfortably kit an exarch to support the squad. Forgetting the fact that WG also need a Warlock in large numbers (troops or no, it is ridiculous to risk WS on such an expensive squad), Scorpions are basically second only to a Fortune Seer-council, in terms of their ability to tar-pit. A Scorpion exarch can take two styles of PW, one of them a rather ineffective PK, the other a mediocre pair of PWs. The reason I bring this up, is that Eldar do not have many options for tarpit units and if you enjoy/need something to fill that role, Scorpions are second best for that purpose. I am not one to remove the possibility of using half of a codex, simply because the other half is sub-par on many counts. That also means that Scorpions are not exactly competitive, nor do I consider them all that bad.

I could play shooty Eldar but I prefer not to. Scorpions are Eldar assault units and they require the finesse nearly any Eldar assault unit would. If I want to imitate another codex in terms of defensive assault units, I would most likely pick a Seer council, or a large WG squad. Given that I prefer not to use Eldar in a way that works like most other codices, I do use Scorpions and they have proven quite useful, if not regularly fun to use. Eldar are fragile, it is a pretty consistent theme throughout the whole codex. If I am able to avoid PWs, Scorpions with fortune become very difficult to break in assault, meaning they can easily tarpit as well as many equivalent assault units from other codices would, further, that they can actually pick out units that other equivalent defensive assault units simply are not able to cope with. Given that I also consider Scorpions over-costed/under-equipped within most gaming environments, by about 10-15%, as much of the Eldar codex appears to be; they aren't amazing, but as I have said before, they are useful in some situations.

The second Eldar can take JP Scorpions I will promote them as the superior option within the role that a unit such as vanilla Scorpions does now. As it stands, Scorpions are not prepared to use tactics familiar to other codices, within the roles that are applicable in that context. I.e., Scorpions are not Ogryn, nor are they IG power blobs, while they can still be considered relatively effective as a tarpit unit in certain situations. Scorpions are generalists, although, they are limited by their Eldar stats.

If you don't like Tac marines, it comes as no surprise that one would not like Scorpions either, even if they are different in many ways, while similar in other, more generalized ways. Generalized while inflexible in many situations, does not discount the use of Scorpions entirely.

Wrexasaur wrote:Scorpions are basically second only to a Fortune Seer-council, in terms of their ability to tar-pit.

...in the eldar codex. It's like talking about how crisis suits are second only to farsight in terms of their close combat ability for the tau. This, of course, doesn't make them GOOD at close combat, even if it's the best that tau have.

Wrexasaur wrote:I could play shooty Eldar but I prefer not to.

Were I to play an eldar army again, I'd also make it assaulty. That said, I'm not certain I'd take scorpions because...

Wrexasaur wrote:Given that I also consider Scorpions over-costed/under-equipped within most gaming environments, by about 10-15%, as much of the Eldar codex appears to be; they aren't amazing, but as I have said before, they are useful in some situations.

...They are of marginal gain for their cost.

Tar-pitting is not a requirement for assault armies, and not only do eldar do this particular part of assault poorly, but you also have access to other stuff like big mobs of fearless storm guardians.

They ARE of marginal gain for their cost, as compared to equivalent units from other codices. If you choose not to use them, I certainly won't stop you from doing so.

The problem here is that we are discussing an army that is not particularly effective in assault. Playing Biel-tan is a pretty good way to lose a lot of games, so I tend to mix it up as much as possible, while keeping my lists as useful as possible. Having access to a 3+ rr save, is akin to being a brick wall to BBs against S3-4 regular attacks. Having access to a 4 S4 Ini 5 rr attacks, is very well suited to overwhelm large number of units, or strong armor saves.

If you feel that Scorpions are not useful in any way, I am not going to be the one to convince you that they are. I would add, Eldar are not great in assault, besides the fact that they will hit first in many situations and they have the ability to make use of a Farseers powers.

There are few units that can crush more expensive squads, Banshees are one of those units but they require the right targets to do their job. Even in the case of finding those squishy targets, Banshees are arguably not cheaper than their targets, for the fact that you need to include the practically mandatory, expensive Eldar non-assault transport.

Trust me, I am really looking forward to seeing how the next Eldar codex works out.

If you are looking for a counter charge unit, in a mech list, use banshees every time.

Mech lists, especially those without DAVU and include Bladestorming Dire Avengers, and tri flamer storm guardians have impressive amounts of small arms fire.

What can striking scorpions deal with that small arms fire can't? nothing really...

what can banshees deal with that small arms fire can't? Well, they can tackle blood angel assault marines, terminators, etc.

Banshees also have fleet, which means they have a slightly easier time assaulting from a transport that hasn't moved, another advantage to banshees in a mech list.

I do believe that Harlequins are better than either Banshees or Scorpions in melee, but they have to get there... and they can't take a dedicated transport or outflank. Not going to happen in a mech list,

Thats my take on it. But you really don't need any cc in a good ol mech dar list.

Banshees all the way!

Against Necrons and Ba?
Banshees!

Unless your opponent has a res orb around, power weapons will stop those pesky necrons from getting back up again.
Although BA will probably do some sertious damage to your banshees in combat, your higher initiative and Banshee masks will allow you to strike first with your power weapons. Much more effectiev than scorpions in this case

Harlies are great!!

Havent you ever played footdar?

Jabbdo wrote:Harlies are great!!

Havent you ever played footdar?

harlies are good the no means great: they've lost a bit of power in 5th.

This was basically a question in the 4th ed. But now its not.
The answer is neither nor.
Scorpions are generelly good vs Orks due to their good armor save and number of attacks.
But the Noob in the squad will cause some grief.
The situation is different for Banshees. They are good vs MEQ units and normal Termies (not Assault ones with storm shield).

If you want to use one of these units, then you need a plan.
But generally they are not worth the points.

What about the Scorpion Shadowstrike Exarch Power? In anyone's experience has that provided enough of a boost to make scorpions worth taking; as in, could you use them to outflank and then bang up on enemy non-CC squads or to tarpit heavy weapon teams?

Outflanking units with no ranged capability, that only move as fast as infantry, in a list that can't control what side of the board they come in on are worthless.

That is not completely true. Opponents with units such as devastors, or lootas will most likely deploy their units as far away from danger as possible.

I had a game once where my scorpions outflanked and killed 10 lootas in one turn. Then again, I was probably lucky to get the right flank and to have the lootas right there.

All I'm saying is that it can sometimes be a game-winner, not all the time, but sometimes. Its up to you whether you want to take the risk of paying extra points for something that might, or might not, work out.

I recently used outflanking Scorpions (six, including a Claw Exarch) to great effect against another Eldar player. Some luck was involved, as they came in near the enemy on Turn 2, but over the course of the game they killed a full unit of Storm Guardians plus Warlock, wrecked their Serpent, killed a unit of Fire Dragons, then assaulted a second Serpent, wrecking it.

Not bad for 143 points.

I like Scorpions over Banshees since they have more staying power (3+). Neither unit is over the top in assault but they have a role they can provide.