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Justicar Alaric from Codex Imperialis popped round my house Saturday, as usual he's playing Blood Angels but today I'm more fearful than his lists than normal as it appears he has got it sorted. Will he beat me this time?

Imperial Guard "Steel Lions" - 2,000 points


HQ

1 x Company Command Squad w/ Chimera 4 x plasma guns & carapace armour

1 x Company Command Squad w/ Chimera 4 x plasma guns & carapace armour

Troops

Veterans 3 x meltaguns

Veterans 3 x meltaguns

Veterans w/ Chimera 3 x meltaguns

Veterans w/ Chimera 3 x flamers

Veterans w/ Chimera 3 x flamers

Fast Attack

1 x Valkyrie multiple missile pods

1 x Valkyrie multiple missile pods

2 x Hellhounds heavy flamers

Heavy Support

1 x Leman Russ heavy flamer

1 x Leman Russ Demolisher heavy flamer

1 x Leman Russ Demolisher heavy flamer

Total: 2,005


Blood Angels - 2,000 points

HQ

Librarian - shield of sanguinus & blood rage (one which gives preferred enemy)

Honour Guard - 4 x meltaguns & power fist

Elite

Chaplain - jump pack

3 x Sanguinary Priests - jump packs

Troops

5 x Assault Marines - plasma gun

10 x Assault Marines - 2 x plasma guns

10 x Assault Marines - 2 x meltaguns & power fist

10 x Assault Marines - 2 x meltaguns & power fist

10 x Assault Marines - 2 x flamers

Heavy Support

5 x Devastators - 4 x missile launchers

5 x Devastators - 4 x missile launchers

5 x Devastators - 4 x missile launchers


Game: Capture & Control and pitched battle

Deployment

I lost the roll off and Kris (Justicar) deployed first. On my left flank he deployed a melta A.S along with a Priest behind a ruin, though I could draw LOS to the unit. In a ruin he put a Dev squad along with the 5 man A.S plasma unit, out in front of that ruin he put the Librarian attached to the H.G and the other melta A.S unit, also inside that ruin was the flamer A.S with the Chaplain. On my right flank he put two Dev squads in a large ruin with the 10 man plasma A.S unit, inside this ruin is his objective so it's well fortified.

On my left flank I deployed the Russ and a Chimera with flamer Vets, in between them was a ruin which my objective was placed in on the first floor, inside the ruin the other flamer Vets deployed. Along the front both Demolishers deployed with both CCS Chimeras behind them. On my right flank I deployed my fast units, both Valkyries and then Hellhounds shielding the melta Veterans in the Chimera - the other two melta Veteran squads are inside the Valkyries.

I attempted to seize the initiative so I can blast those Angels out in the open first turn, I fail.




* Tactical Notes

Ok I deployed my fast stuff on my right flank because that's where Kris' objective is. I know I haven't got enough fire power really to remove 20 Space Marines and I don't want to disembark my units, so I'll move the Hellhounds up along with the supporting Veterans in Chimera and clear out what I can, then send in the Valkyries to contest the objective, if I contest and hold mine that's a win so that's my plan today.

Target priority is to kill the melta units. Without these Kris cannot pop my armour 14 tanks and I'll use them as shields for the Chimeras, the missiles are also a pain so I'm hoping I can take out those Dev squads slowly with mass multi laser fire and support from the Valkyries double large blast templates and Hellhounds flamer templates. Without melta and krak missiles my armour is much safer and my weaker infantry secure.

Turn 1

Kris rolls his Angels out moving the H.G and supporting melta Assault Squad straight down the board using a ruin to get cover saves if I start shooting. He moves the flamer Assault Squad out of the ruin too. Rest of the army holds position.

Shooting the units which moved run, the melta unit moving into terrain and the H.G just falling short of it. The flamer unit only gets a few models in terrain. Krak missiles fire from the right flank at a Demolisher and manage to immobilise it, krak missiles from the left flank fire at the Russ but do no damage.

In my turn I position the Russ so it can see the Honour Guard perfectly clear. I move the other Demolisher into terrain so it can blast through at the melta Assault Squad, I move one of the CCS Chimeras ready to rapid fire while the other moves through terrain ok. The Hounds move up using a centre tower ruin to hide one which will get me a cover save next turn. Valkyries use a large terrain piece to possibly get cover, one Valkyrie moves into terrain ok.

In my shooting turn the Valkyrie in terrain drops a single template (due to LOS) and multi laser on a Dev squad in the Angel objective ruin, one Marine is killed. Leman Russ blasts out hitting the Honour Guard, the Librarian casts shield and only a few die. Both Demolishers fire at the Assault Marines supporting the H.G, one scatters and misses the other lands on target killing a few marines and leaving just the Librarian and Priest from the H.G left after saves. One CCS tries to fire at the Assault Squad but is just out of range by a 1". Marines take morale tests and unbelievable that both the Librarian and Assault Squad both fail and leg it, falling back 3D6" thanks to jump packs which puts them both back in their own deployment zone!




* Tactical Notes

Ok when Kris sent his Angels bounding down at me I was hoping to kill a single squad of meltas and prepared to lose a tank next turn to his surviving melta squad, I did what I wanted by taking out all melta weapons in that Honour Guard as 4 meltaguns are worse than 2! Though having that Assault Squad fail morale and run away is just icing on the cake!

So now I have zero threats on my door step, which is good. I'm expecting Kris to roll out with his melta again and come back at me with two melta units (he kept one back) and start kicking ass. I'll gun these down when they arrive and continue to put pressure on the left flank taking out as many Marines as I can before moving in.

Turn 2

Only movement from Blood Angels is the flamer Assault Squad getting extremely poor difficult terrain movement as he moves them into terrain to get cover. That's all the movement from Angels!

Shooting krak rockets fire at the Leman Russ and score crew stunned, so no firing for that in my turn! Krak rockets smash into the Hellhounds but I get cover due to placing one vehicle behind terrain, ends up with crew shaken after mass krak rocket attack.

I don't do a lot of movement myself crawling the Hellhounds up along with the Veteran Chimera behind, the shaken Hound pops smoke leaving the other to fire. The Valkyrie not in terrain moves out following the vehicle convoy up the board.

I fire two Demolisher templates and two multi lasers at the flamer Assault Squad and wipe them out. I fire mass blast templates from Valkyries at a Dev squad on the top floor of the Angel objective ruin, they take some kills and fail morale falling back 12", only two of them remain. I fire the operational Hellhound at the other Dev squad killing one Marine, they pass morale ok.




* Tactical Notes

Ok I'm really shocked that Kris didn't barrel roll his Angels back at me but this time sending three units, the Librarian to get the 5+ cover and the other two melta units he has remaining. Sure I would have fired at them again but the Russ was out of action and using that ruin in front of me he would have got 4+ cover. Instead he brought nothing out of his deployment zone leaving a single unit for me to target, sure that unit wasn't a threat but it's the only thing I can fire at and that unit got punished for it by being wiped out along with the attached Chaplain and Priest.

I'm also lucky another squad failed morale, with those missile launchers out of LOS they will need to move several turns to get back into position which will stop them from firing.

My plan now is to roll up the Leman Russ, Demolisher and both CCS in formation and sweep along the Angels deployment. Sure this will put me in melta range but I'll use the Chimeras to shield the big tanks and pop smoke on them, I want those big tanks firing next turn.

Turn 3

Kris' Dev squad regroups and moves through terrain putting them on the bottom floor. That's all the movement.

Shooting krak missiles fire at the Leman Russ again but do no damage. Krak missiles fire at a Valkyrie and do no damage.

In my turn I attempt to move the Demolisher through terrain, it gets immobilised. I move one CCS Chimera up against a ruin hoping to use plasma next turn. I move the other CCS Chimera through terrain and that gets immobilised too! Hellhounds, Chimera and Valkyrie shuffle up the board some more.

In my shooting turn the Leman Russ fires at the melta Assault Squad which was deployed on my left flank and not moved all game, it scatters and hits two but they pass cover saves ok. Hellhound fires at the Dev squad on the first floor of the Angel objective ruin, they are all killed with help from a Valkyrie.



*Tactical Notes

Short turn this one. Again I am surprised Kris hasn't come back out to get me, his meltas are just sitting there and doing nothing and letting his krak rockets pink of my armour 14. Bad idea. At the moment he's letting me come to him and I guess he'll then pounce, but if I keep chipping him down he won't have a lot left to pounce!

I'm a bit gutted I've immobilised two tanks this turn myself. These would have been useful moving up as a armoured column and blasting at the Angels from a far. At least my objective is well secured I guess!

Plan this turn is to start sniping that Librarian and Priest Kris has left out in the open, providing he doesn't move them and ok they're not doing a lot but its the only targets besides Devs. I'll put more pressure on the right flank and in turn 5 I'll turbo boost both Valkyries and contest.

Turn 4

Dev squad which ran away few turns ago move up through terrain and back to the position they started in.

Shooting krak missiles pound the Hellhounds and score weapon destroyed. Krak missiles smash into a Valkyrie but score no damage. Leman Russ takes more krak rockets and strugs them off.

My movement turn I move the last operational CCS Chimera into terrain, and guess what, it gets immobilised! The squad bails out and runs getting LOS on the Librarian for next turn. I move the Hounds and Chimera up along with the Valkyrie.

Shooting the plasma CCS out the Chimera blast at the exposed Librarian and Priest, after cover saves the Priest is dead and Librarian is wounded. The Hounds blast flamer at the ground floor plasma Assault Squad with inferno cannon and two heavy flamers, but only two Marines die. Meltas fire from the supporting Chimera along side the Hellhound, though only one Dev Marine fails cover leaving one standing who passes morale after been bombed by Valkyries. Leman Russ blasts the Devs on top of the ruin on my left flank along with support from a flamer Chimera multi laser, blast scatters and multi lasers fails to do any damage.




*Tactical Notes

Ok I've immobilised another one of my tanks making my own tank stuck in the mud score 3, that's more than Kris has done and he's meant to be killing my toy soliders! lol!

Plan is simple. Blast the Devs and keep pressure on the Angel objective.

Turn 5

Angels this turn start some movement, though its only the battered melta unit from turn 1 which move out towards the Hellhounds.

Shooting the Assault Squad pops the weapon destroyed Hound. Single missile launcher fires at the melta Chimera, it fails cover thanks to my placing and is wrecked - the vets bail out. More missiles slam into Valkyrie but do no good.

In assault, the Assault Marines immobilise and crew stun the remaining Hound.

My movement turn I move the Veterans away from the busted Chimera to get LOS on the Assault Squad which broke the Hellhound. I move the Valkyrie into the Angel objective contesting it, it passes terrain test ok. The other Valkyrie moves out of terrain ok turbo boosting and lands at the side of the ruin, contesting the objective also.

Shooting I fire the melta Veterans on foot at the Assault Marines killing two in total. Everything else in range fires at them too but leaving three remaining. Multi laser from a flamer Chimera and Leman Russ fire at the Devs, Russ scatters but multi laser kills two.

Roll to carry on the game but it ends on a 2, I win controlling my objective and contesting the Blood Angels objective.




Summary

This game went better than expected. I was really worried about the amount of krak rockets Kris has got which can do serious damage to my Chimeras and tackle the Valkyries and Hounds due to volume. In his first turn I couldn't believe how close those Angels got as well, I really was expecting a tank to get popped that turn.

Mistake wise I don't think I made any besides rolling 1's for terrain tests! I held the Valkyries back to contest the Angel objective which worked, no point sending in melta Veterans as the Angels would get cover on those melta shots anyway.

I cannot say the game went well for Kris, unfortunately. The list I personally think is sound, however it's his tactics. Through out the entire game he only managed to pop two tanks and immobilise two; that's it. What Kris needs to do is be more aggressive, ok he got bad luck with those two units failing morale. Not to sound condensending here's what he should have done:

Deployment was ok, except Kris purposely put in that 5 man Assault Squad to hold objective and but never put it on the objective! Kris WTF? This is a serious brain fart moment lol.

First turn move out the Honour Guard, three melta Assault Squads and the flamer Assault Squad. I can't possibly kill all those in a single turn. He then should have send the Honour Guard at my Leman Russ, this has range, they should pop it. Then use melta units on a Demolisher and a CCS Chimera, the flamers then move in and burn the CCS - in that turn a long range threat of mine would be gone along with another blast template and a plasma unit, all high threats to the Angels.

The other plasma Assault Squad should have swept down the right flank using mobility to target weak side and rear armour, then launch a assault on the troops inside. Should have targetted the meltas in the Chimera to stop troops getting close to his objective.

The missile launchers instead of bouncing of my armour 14 and Hellhounds should have fired at those fast moving Valkyries to stop them carrying troops and claiming the objective, with the troops out his Marines could gun them down easily.

Extra two turns!

Yes you read right. We got in a few extra turns. So I got the offical win but we decided to carry on for two set turns and I'll give Kris advice.

Turn 6

With my advice Kris moves the battered melta Assault Squad behind the exposed rear of the turbo boosted Valkyrie, he moves the 10 man plasma Assault Squad out of terrain to face my Veterans on foot. He moves the 5 man Assault Squad into the Angel objective. He attached the Librarian to the last melta Assault Squad which has hid in terrain all game, these move towards the Valkyrie in terrain on the Guard objective.

Shooting the battered Assault Marines unleash melta at the rear of the Valkyrie, they immobilise it but because it turbo boost it's wrecked! Other melta unit with the Librarian pop my other Valkyrie, the 5 man Assault Squad open fire (but not the plasma gun) at the Veterans which were inside. The full plasma Assault Squad fires at the Veterans (not plasma)

In assault the 5 man Assault Squad charges the Veterans, my Veterans get killed. The battered Assault Squad charges and kills a few Guard and loses a single Marine, combat remains on. My Veterans on foot which just got shot get assaulted and get killed.

In my turn I everything I can at the plasma unit which killed my Veterans and wipe them out. I fire a few multi lasers at the Devs on the left flank but no kills. Leman Russ fires at the Librarian with the melta unit, but scatters and misses.

In combat my Veterans take more wounds but manage to kill those Marines in combat, they consolidate towards the Angel objective and contest it.

*Tactical Notes

Ok, so not to blow my own horn but Kris has practically killed nearly half my army in a single turn with my advice compared to him doing hardly anything to me over 5 turns. He has taken out both Valkyries so no armour protection for them and two troop units, one remains, but I'm sure won't last long.

Turn 7

With more of my advice Kris moves his full melta unit around to target those Veterans, he moves the 5 man plasma unit to support and a solo Marine from someone - perhaps I didn't kill all those plasma Assault Marines previous turn then, ah well.

Shooting full melta unit fires at the Guard along with a frag missile from above and the solo SGT. Only a few Guardsmen remaing. Kris runs the 5 man Assault Squad hoping to get back onto his objective but gets 1, it gets him in range though so now contesting his objective now - when he moved he didn't contest at all, I claimed!

Not a lot of shooting from me, I snipe multi lasers at the melta unit but nothing after feel no pain rolls at the Devs take more multi laser fire but still stand. The Leman Russ fires at the full melta Assault unit with the Librarian but scatters and misses.

In combat by Guard bite the dust, Kris consolidates onto his objective scoring a drawing.

So offical win for me, but spirit draw for Kris

Cool report as usual. Good that you are giving advice and both growing as players.

Have you guys ever considered switching armies and playing? If you beat his Angels with one of your armies again he might not learn as much as he would by going against his own Angels and seeing how to properly push the attack aggressively. Just a thought to help him up his game a bit more. I agree that the Angels list is much tighter now, maybe some melta speeders instead of one of the Dev squads to provide a "in your face" threat to go with the massed assault marines?

I always secretly cheer for Kris to win one...

Bladewalker it's funny you mentioned about switching armies as I mentioned this to Kris on Saturday. HOwever, this Saturday I'm hoping to get a doubles game done with him and I'll use his Angels.

Unfortunately Kris isn't aggressive enough and I've noticed he just hangs things back. If he stops this and moves stuff up and gets target priority spot on he'll doe well. Like I said in the end of my report, in those last two extra turns he killed more of my army in those turns than the first 5.

Cool. I was thinking again about that Angels list and I'm really liking the idea of Speeders, not so much as a big threat... but as something that needs to be shot at instead of the assault marines behind them, giving more target saturation on that first turn heading up field. The IG you played would have had a harder time shooting in turn 1 if there had been 40 marines with 3 MM speeders in range to pop armor next turn, 7 different targets instead of 3 would ensure something gets in to smash faces...

Looking forward to the double report. Go Kris! (I always cheer for underdogs)

mercer wrote:Target priority is to kill the melta units. Without these Kris cannot pop my armour 14 tanks

When I read this, I winced. I was expecting to see a mass jetpack charge that horribly mangled all your armor in assault with krak grenades (the meltaguns being ancillary weapons in this case). Instead, your opponent decided to basically cower in the middle and in his deployment zone with his uber fast assault of doom army allowing you to simply blow it up mid-field.

Hopefully he now realizes that krak missiles aren't anti-tank weapons and instead of just sitting back hoping to penetrate AV14 with S8 rockets he'll actually charge in and use the majority of his units for what they actually do well, instead of hiding them in cover until it's "safe".

In the end, your opponent was dithery and conservative in front of an imperial guard armored wall. I would have been upset if you DIDN'T soundly whomp him.

I agree with Ailaros, but I also sympathize with the BA player. It is rough until you learn your army's strength and abilities. The more you play, the less you miss assign roles, and hopefully he takes the last two turns of the game to heart. Good batrep though! I always root for the Blood Angels, btw! Also, a quick question for mercer. I know this is just a friendly game, but for a tourney match, what would you remove from your list to get it below 2k?

Awesome board dude, and a good report to boot!

L. Wrex

The other Valkyrie moves out of terrain ok turbo boosting and lands at the side of the ruin, contesting the objective also.

Is there a special rule that allows a Valkyrie to turbo boost out of terrain?

Otherwise - another good report, if somewhat disappointing that an assault based army failed to commit to an assault...

I play both mechguards and foot BA and I can honestly say that my BA fears a good mechguard army. While your army has all the tools to table a foot MEQ army, Kris does have 2 things working in his favor:

1) Speed.

2) Numbers.


A number of advice for Kris:

1) If you're playing foot-BA, get Astorath for your HQ. Red Thirst is great. Half of your army would be fearless and attacking rear armor at S5. That means no morale checks causing 2 of your units to fall back. It'll also help if he's bringing one of the nastiest IG units - the Psyker Battle squad.

2) Screw plasmas. Plasmas only work in conjunction with bolters for rapid-firing. It absolutely makes no sense on units with bolt pistols. Swap out all plasmas for meltas, shoot and assault....not shoot and then stand there like an idiot.

3) Be aggressive. Foot BA works only if you're able to overload the opposition with more marines than they can take out. The assault marines need to go all out, not stay back and wait.

4) Use screening units. Don't worry if there's not enough cover. Use 1 unit as a "sacrificial" screening unit (in this case, the flamer unit as they can't do much against tanks) and ADVANCE!!!

5) Avoid firing missile launchers at AV14. Deploy them in opposite corners to catch your opponents in a crossfire. Then you should be able to hit side armor of some of those russes.


If played correctly, BA can handle mechguards. So far, my foot BA haven't lost to almost-completely-mech IG yet.

Ailaros wrote:

mercer wrote:Target priority is to kill the melta units. Without these Kris cannot pop my armour 14 tanks

When I read this, I winced. I was expecting to see a mass jetpack charge that horribly mangled all your armor in assault with krak grenades (the meltaguns being ancillary weapons in this case). Instead, your opponent decided to basically cower in the middle and in his deployment zone with his uber fast assault of doom army allowing you to simply blow it up mid-field.

Hopefully he now realizes that krak missiles aren't anti-tank weapons and instead of just sitting back hoping to penetrate AV14 with S8 rockets he'll actually charge in and use the majority of his units for what they actually do well, instead of hiding them in cover until it's "safe".

In the end, your opponent was dithery and conservative in front of an imperial guard armored wall. I would have been upset if you DIDN'T soundly whomp him.

That was what I was expecting if those meltas failed. Kris knows about kraks from our previous games.

Krak missiles are tank weapons; just not against armour 14. He should have torrented Chimeras with them until they failed cover save.

Nantukoshade wrote:I agree with Ailaros, but I also sympathize with the BA player. It is rough until you learn your army's strength and abilities. The more you play, the less you miss assign roles, and hopefully he takes the last two turns of the game to heart. Good batrep though! I always root for the Blood Angels, btw! Also, a quick question for mercer. I know this is just a friendly game, but for a tourney match, what would you remove from your list to get it below 2k?

I'm hoping he will catch on from the last turn extra turns, I am sure he will. I'm hoping to get a doubles game with him Saturday so I'll use his Angels with him.

2k, hmmm noted below:

CCS

All troops

Valkyries

Russ

Double Demolisher if I could fit.

HOwever, I've recently slightly changed my list. New one can be found in the army list forum

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:Awesome board dude, and a good report to boot!

L. Wrex

Thanks dude Board still WIP at the moment but I'm hoping to get it done soon.

Arakasi wrote:

The other Valkyrie moves out of terrain ok turbo boosting and lands at the side of the ruin, contesting the objective also.

Is there a special rule that allows a Valkyrie to turbo boost out of terrain?

Otherwise - another good report, if somewhat disappointing that an assault based army failed to commit to an assault...

The Valkyrie didn't actually turbo boost as it's a fast skimmer so can move 24". So just takes terrain test when moving out.

jy2 wrote:I play both mechguards and foot BA and I can honestly say that my BA fears a good mechguard army. While your army has all the tools to table a foot MEQ army, Kris does have 2 things working in his favor:

1) Speed.

2) Numbers.


A number of advice for Kris:

1) If you're playing foot-BA, get Astorath for your HQ. Red Thirst is great. Half of your army would be fearless and attacking rear armor at S5. That means no morale checks causing 2 of your units to fall back. It'll also help if he's bringing one of the nastiest IG units - the Psyker Battle squad.

2) Screw plasmas. Plasmas only work in conjunction with bolters for rapid-firing. It absolutely makes no sense on units with bolt pistols. Swap out all plasmas for meltas, shoot and assault....not shoot and then stand there like an idiot.

3) Be aggressive. Foot BA works only if you're able to overload the opposition with more marines than they can take out. The assault marines need to go all out, not stay back and wait.

4) Use screening units. Don't worry if there's not enough cover. Use 1 unit as a "sacrificial" screening unit (in this case, the flamer unit as they can't do much against tanks) and ADVANCE!!!

5) Avoid firing missile launchers at AV14. Deploy them in opposite corners to catch your opponents in a crossfire. Then you should be able to hit side armor of some of those russes.


If played correctly, BA can handle mechguards. So far, my foot BA haven't lost to almost-completely-mech IG yet.

I totally agree about the speed and numbers Kris has. I couldn't believe how close in came in the first movement turn and how many Marines he actually had.

1. Astrorath is a waste. Why have S5 attacking rear armour when you have S6 krak grenades? Astrorath costs too much and isn't a benefit.

2. Small plasma unit is used to hold objectives, this is the reason why Kris got it - but he didn't use it to hold objectives though Though I agree about the other plasma unit TBH, means no assault after.

3. Totally agree.

4. Shield power and use of terrain well doesn't always need sacrifice units, however should be prepared to lose one on route to the enemy position.

5. Totally agree, he did deploy like this but I made him fire at my front armour due to position, cross fire will not always work.

Whoops - I just saw turbo boost and difficult terrain when it was actually a flat-out skimmer move - apologies!

S5 attacking rear armour is superior to S6 grenades because you get multiple attacks. Mathhammer wise, as a generally rule, as long as you can still penetrate, multiple attacks with a lower strength are better than less attacks with a higher strength (damage modifiers aside). The main issue with Astorath is his point cost really, his Death Company ability is obviously factored in to his cost so he is hard to justify if you aren't taking Death Company imo.

I agree he needed to be more aggressive, he didn't use his melta or massive close assault superiority at all. Overall I would say his list is pretty damn good, the only thing I don't think fits is the Chaplain as his assault abilites don't really need buffing that much. He could also easily drop a Priest, 2 + the guy in the Honour Guard should be plenty of FNP. With these points you could boost the 5 man Assault unit up to 10 or better yet give the Honour Guard some Storm Shields, add some meatshields to the Devs and/or add more upgrades to the Assault squad (Power fists all round, Inferus Pistols etc). Considering this was an objective mission I have no idea why he didn't combat squad everything either, it makes it far harder to stop everyone and makes screening easier.

In any case I'm not even sure why he tried to run across the board at you. The best thing Blood Angel jump pack lists have going for them is DoA and he didn't use it at all. He should have deployed the Devs and thats it (maybe a Priest with them for FNP), use them to try and open up some Chimera chassis's or the Valkyries. Then on Turn 2 and 3 he is going to hit like ton of bricks, even if you see it coming (which you would) and castle up (which he has a turn or two to disrupt with Missiles) he is still going to kill multiple vehicles on the drop with his meltagun and plasma units. He can also combat squad so the 2 meltas drop a tank and the other combat squad (with the Fist) can run to spread out and survive till next turn. In any case you would struggle to drop that many Marine units in one turn actually, you can only pie plate 3 combat squads max and with Shield and FNP you aren't like to torrent the rest to death. Because of this I wouldn't even bother running at all (you will always pie plate the ones which didn't run) and put one special weapon in each squad to maxmise the number of vehicles you can kill. Using DoA to drop in basically gets around all the issues he had, it instantly puts the bulk of his army in your face ready to assault, gets his special weapons into range quickly and safely and practically ensures he does some damage before losing them. I'm not sure you could deal with that many Marines in close, even the Flamer units would be a real threat due to assaults. As far as the mission is concerned, forcing you to castle up means you are unlike to win this mission and his chances of winning are much higher (using the same tactic you used). He can put his objective in the back corner, shoot down anything which tries to advance and use the 5 man Assault squad to grab it. On the other hand you will have 45 Angry Marines with FNP landing very close to your objective so keeping it uncontested would be pretty tough.

Arakasi wrote:Whoops - I just saw turbo boost and difficult terrain when it was actually a flat-out skimmer move - apologies!

No worries. I think bad choice of words on my behalf too.

Powerguy wrote:S5 attacking rear armour is superior to S6 grenades because you get multiple attacks. Mathhammer wise, as a generally rule, as long as you can still penetrate, multiple attacks with a lower strength are better than less attacks with a higher strength (damage modifiers aside). The main issue with Astorath is his point cost really, his Death Company ability is obviously factored in to his cost so he is hard to justify if you aren't taking Death Company imo.

I agree he needed to be more aggressive, he didn't use his melta or massive close assault superiority at all. Overall I would say his list is pretty damn good, the only thing I don't think fits is the Chaplain as his assault abilites don't really need buffing that much. He could also easily drop a Priest, 2 + the guy in the Honour Guard should be plenty of FNP. With these points you could boost the 5 man Assault unit up to 10 or better yet give the Honour Guard some Storm Shields, add some meatshields to the Devs and/or add more upgrades to the Assault squad (Power fists all round, Inferus Pistols etc). Considering this was an objective mission I have no idea why he didn't combat squad everything either, it makes it far harder to stop everyone and makes screening easier.

In any case I'm not even sure why he tried to run across the board at you. The best thing Blood Angel jump pack lists have going for them is DoA and he didn't use it at all. He should have deployed the Devs and thats it (maybe a Priest with them for FNP), use them to try and open up some Chimera chassis's or the Valkyries. Then on Turn 2 and 3 he is going to hit like ton of bricks, even if you see it coming (which you would) and castle up (which he has a turn or two to disrupt with Missiles) he is still going to kill multiple vehicles on the drop with his meltagun and plasma units. He can also combat squad so the 2 meltas drop a tank and the other combat squad (with the Fist) can run to spread out and survive till next turn. In any case you would struggle to drop that many Marine units in one turn actually, you can only pie plate 3 combat squads max and with Shield and FNP you aren't like to torrent the rest to death. Because of this I wouldn't even bother running at all (you will always pie plate the ones which didn't run) and put one special weapon in each squad to maxmise the number of vehicles you can kill. Using DoA to drop in basically gets around all the issues he had, it instantly puts the bulk of his army in your face ready to assault, gets his special weapons into range quickly and safely and practically ensures he does some damage before losing them. I'm not sure you could deal with that many Marines in close, even the Flamer units would be a real threat due to assaults. As far as the mission is concerned, forcing you to castle up means you are unlike to win this mission and his chances of winning are much higher (using the same tactic you used). He can put his objective in the back corner, shoot down anything which tries to advance and use the 5 man Assault squad to grab it. On the other hand you will have 45 Angry Marines with FNP landing very close to your objective so keeping it uncontested would be pretty tough.

Your last sentence about Astrorath is bang on why not to take him. Why pay 200 + points just to get extra strength for a few possible units? After all should have a Priest nearby which gives furious charge anyway, so Astrath is pointless in this list - no Death Co and has Priests already.

It's not the Chaplain which needs c.c buff, he gives it to the unit...

2 Priests inc the H.G one isn't enough. Kill the H.G which isn't hard and one Priest left. Multiple Priests with a FnP bubble is a lot lot better.

5 man A.S is purely for objectives only.

H.G don't need storm shields, not going into combat that often against dedicated c.c units.

Don't need infernus pistols. Lose the extra attack and get 6 2D6 armour pen instead of 3", much better.

He didn't deep strike in because the army then comes in piecemeal, even with re-rolls not massively cool. Would have been better coming at me with all Assault Squad units except the 5 man which should stay on the objective. This would put pressure on me having multiple targets and multiple melta units. However, keeping one melta in reserve would have been use for deep striking I guess, after all it did nothing all game.

He wouldn't force me to castle up with deep striking units...having single units means my force is split and he'd have to thin himself out.

mercer wrote:
1. Astrorath is a waste. Why have S5 attacking rear armour when you have S6 krak grenades? Astrorath costs too much and isn't a benefit.

Because 3 S5 attacks is better than 1 S6. Fearless is also pretty handy. BA have about 25% chance of failing morale. While that won't happen too often, when it does though, it could be disastrous. Not to mention that IG has psyker battle squads, one of their nastier units. Astorath is expensive, but he is worth it if you're fielding a mainly foot list. The more units with the Red Thirst, the better. That means his devastators could have also become fearless and not flee like they did in the game.

mercer wrote:
2. Small plasma unit is used to hold objectives, this is the reason why Kris got it - but he didn't use it to hold objectives though Though I agree about the other plasma unit TBH, means no assault after.

Plasma assault marines as objective holders is just ludicrous. If you want an objective-holding unit, get 5 sniper scouts with camo cloaks and a missile launcher. Same cost, but at least they contribute to the battle while sitting on their a$$es. And they're much more resilient with 3+ cover (2+ go-to-ground).

mercer wrote:
4. Shield power and use of terrain well doesn't always need sacrifice units, however should be prepared to lose one on route to the enemy position.

True, but what if you're playing on a terrain-lite board? Yes, you take advantage of whatever terrain you can, but sometimes you have to prepare to fight on boards without a whole lot of cover. Don't let such a board discourage you from being aggressive. Create your own screens if you have to.

Powerguy wrote:The main issue with Astorath is his point cost really, his Death Company ability is obviously factored in to his cost so he is hard to justify if you aren't taking Death Company imo.

That's a misconception if I've ever seen one. If you're taking Astorath mainly to take multiple DC's, then you're not playing a very good BA list. The more regular units you have (units that can have the Red Thirst), the better Astorath becomes.

Powerguy wrote:
The best thing Blood Angel jump pack lists have going for them is DoA and he didn't use it at all.

That is just suicide against an IG army like his. If they land and don't spread out, they're going to get showered with demolishter blasts, battle cannon blasts, valkyrie missile pods and multiple flamer templates. After which, his meltavets and plasma guys will finish the job. And that's assuming they all land at once. The reality is, even with re-rolls due to DoA, only 1/3 of the army will come in....against his entire army. DoA just doesn't work when you facing a template/blast-heavy army or a very assaulty army (orks, daemons, lash chaos, tyranids, even space wolves to name a few).

jy2 wrote:

mercer wrote:
1. Astrorath is a waste. Why have S5 attacking rear armour when you have S6 krak grenades? Astrorath costs too much and isn't a benefit.

Because 3 S5 attacks is better than 1 S6. Fearless is also pretty handy. BA have about 25% chance of failing morale. While that won't happen too often, when it does though, it could be disastrous. Not to mention that IG has psyker battle squads, one of their nastier units. Astorath is expensive, but he is worth it if you're fielding a mainly foot list. The more units with the Red Thirst, the better. That means his devastators could have also become fearless and not flee like they did in the game.

Sigh...read the list. Why pay 220 points for crappy Astrorath to possibly get furious charge on a 3+ when Priests in the list give it for FREE!!!!! and FnP!! So he's not worth is as Angels should be taking Priests and give you furious charge full time....Astrorath only gives units he's attached to fearless, you going to attach him to Dev squads then? So, why pay 220 points to get furious charge when other units give it for free and other benefits and you have krak grenades as standard? Wate of points, plus fearless works on unit he's attached with, not the army. Not sure why you're on about PBS for as the list has a Librarian with psychic hood...did you read this list?

You see my point why Astrorath is no good? It's not a guranteed power and Priests do the job better for cheaper and bring FnP which is needed a lot lot more.

mercer wrote:
2. Small plasma unit is used to hold objectives, this is the reason why Kris got it - but he didn't use it to hold objectives though Though I agree about the other plasma unit TBH, means no assault after.

Plasma assault marines as objective holders is just ludicrous. If you want an objective-holding unit, get 5 sniper scouts with camo cloaks and a missile launcher. Same cost, but at least they contribute to the battle while sitting on their a$$es. And they're much more resilient with 3+ cover (2+ go-to-ground).

This is a all A.S army, not Scouts.

mercer wrote:
4. Shield power and use of terrain well doesn't always need sacrifice units, however should be prepared to lose one on route to the enemy position.

True, but what if you're playing on a terrain-lite board? Yes, you take advantage of whatever terrain you can, but sometimes you have to prepare to fight on boards without a whole lot of cover. Don't let such a board discourage you from being aggressive. Create your own screens if you have to.

We don't play on a terrain light board so that's never going to happen.

Powerguy wrote:The main issue with Astorath is his point cost really, his Death Company ability is obviously factored in to his cost so he is hard to justify if you aren't taking Death Company imo.

That's a misconception if I've ever seen one. If you're taking Astorath mainly to take multiple DC's, then you're not playing a very good BA list. The more regular units you have (units that can have the Red Thirst), the better Astorath becomes.

If you read Astroraths rules he makes Death Co re-roll like a Chaplain. He's nothing more than a super Chaplain, as mentioned, Priests are better can get 3 for the price of Astrorath with jump packs and FnP. Astrorath sucks. Forget red thirst, no good on Devs and only a dice roll, not guranteed like Priests.

Powerguy wrote:
The best thing Blood Angel jump pack lists have going for them is DoA and he didn't use it at all.

That is just suicide against an IG army like his. If they land and don't spread out, they're going to get showered with demolishter blasts, battle cannon blasts, valkyrie missile pods and multiple flamer templates. After which, his meltavets and plasma guys will finish the job. And that's assuming they all land at once. The reality is, even with re-rolls due to DoA, only 1/3 of the army will come in....against his entire army. DoA just doesn't work when you facing a template/blast-heavy army or a very assaulty army (orks, daemons, lash chaos, tyranids, even space wolves to name a few).

This is actually the one thing I can agree with you on.

mercer wrote:
Sigh...read the list. Why pay 220 points for crappy Astrorath to possibly get furious charge on a 3+ when Priests in the list give it for FREE!!!!! and FnP!! So he's not worth is as Angels should be taking Priests and give you furious charge full time....Astrorath only gives units he's attached to fearless, you going to attach him to Dev squads then? So, why pay 220 points to get furious charge when other units give it for free and other benefits and you have krak grenades as standard? Wate of points, plus fearless works on unit he's attached with, not the army. Not sure why you're on about PBS for as the list has a Librarian with psychic hood...did you read this list?

You see my point why Astrorath is no good? It's not a guranteed power and Priests do the job better for cheaper and bring FnP which is needed a lot lot more.

You misunderstood me. Astorath doesn't just give fearlessness to the unit he joins. He gives it through the Red Thirst. Each unit with the RT exchanges ATSKNF for furious charge and fearless. Don't get me wrong...Sang. priests are still necessary in a foot-BA list. While you also get FC with the Sang. Priests, the Red Thirst gives you some tactical flexibility other than to always stay close to the priest. And a single librarian is not reliable. Psychic hood = 24". PBS = 36". Moreover, the caster will get it off about 60% of the time against a psychic hood. I also play Rune Priest-spam Space Wolves and Grey Knights with the older psychic hoods so I'm well aware of the limitations of psychic hoods.

mercer wrote:
This is a all A.S army, not Scouts.

Doesn't change the fact that scouts are the best objective-holders marines have. Sure his list is themed, and assault marines is a good theme (it's my BA theme as well), but doesn't change the fact that that is a bad way to use them (to just sit on an objective with assault marines).

mercer wrote:
If you read Astroraths rules he makes Death Co re-roll like a Chaplain. He's nothing more than a super Chaplain, as mentioned, Priests are better can get 3 for the price of Astrorath with jump packs and FnP. Astrorath sucks. Forget red thirst, no good on Devs and only a dice roll, not guranteed like Priests.

There are no substitutes for Sang. Priests. I don't care what HQ you use, in a foot BA army, you should always sang. priests, whether you have Astorath, Mephiston or just a regular librarian as your HQ. Aside from being a super-chaplain, Astorath buffs up a BA army by increasing their chances of getting the Red Thirst. That is his true worth. Not his close-combat abilities, which is great, but by how he helps his army. It doesn't make sense at lower points games, but at higher points (at least 2K) where you can take a lot more units, that's where he shines.

There is no definitive HQ choice here. It's all a matter of preference. Where some people do not see his value....that he is just an "overpriced" chaplain, he is more than that in the right army. This is that type of army.

Ok about fearless, but it's still half points wasted as giving furious charge to units which should already have it. Fearless is a double edged sword anyway, TBH, personally I'd rather do without it, but it's not my list. Astrorath isn't needed and doesn't bring any benefits for the points.

Librarian has jump pack can move 12" which makes it 36" range too

I disagree about about Scouts, I'd rather take a better shooting Tactical Squad but that's just me. Lets face it Scouts aren't hard to take out.

That's my point about Astrorath. You're getting furious charge from him what you already have. You're paying for it double! And that's why he's not worth it, he doesn't help the army because a Priest is mantatory and you have that already. So you're paying 220 points to get a few units fearless; waste of points. Unfortunately, he just doesn't shine at all when half his abilities are given by other units for cheaper cost - no point in Astrorath.

Negative, as mentioned Priests bring furious charge. Why get Astroath to only get fearless? As mentioned several times the army has furious charge already, period, not on a 3+. Astrorath is no benefit to this army at all. Would only benefit armies without Priests as they do not have furious charge.

My entire point is Astrorath gives furious charge and fearless on a 3+. Priests already give furious charge already. So why get Astrorath? Just utter pointless as you only get fearless on a 3+. He does not suit this army at all.

mercer wrote:
It's not the Chaplain which needs c.c buff, he gives it to the unit...

2 Priests inc the H.G one isn't enough. Kill the H.G which isn't hard and one Priest left. Multiple Priests with a FnP bubble is a lot lot better.

H.G don't need storm shields, not going into combat that often against dedicated c.c units.

Don't need infernus pistols. Lose the extra attack and get 6 2D6 armour pen instead of 3", much better.

I realise the Chaplain buffs whichever unit he is with, but his re-rolls aren't that powerful unless its a fully power weapon/fist type squad (Death Company, Terminators etc) and in a list like this you really don't need to be any better in combat anyway. You don't have one single unit which can take on an assault based Deathstar unit in any case (no one unit is truely scary in combat even if you add the Chaplain), you are more likely to shoot it to death with melta and the Devs and then mob them with multiple Assault Squads. The points spent on the Chaplain could be far better used to get more damage output basically

Its not hard to cover multiple units with a single Priest, most of the time you are going to be operating close enough together that 3 FNP bubbles should be plenty. You don't have to cover the whole board/all your units in any case, the Priest are free to swap squads and move around to where they are needed most. I can see why people take them though and they aren't a terrible choice, its just I reckon 4 FNP bubbles is overkill.

Storm Shields are not needed for Combat as much as they are for keeping your unit alive against low AP shooting. Its expensive but I would always try and have 1-2 in the squad to keep them alive longer. If you can't torrent them to death (due to FNP) and can't drop them with low AP weapons either then they become very annoying to deal with. It also means you can put the Librarian in another squad where he has more bodies around him and can get more use from Shield. While I think about it the Librarian should really have Blood Lance actually, would be very helpful against mech lists and more helpful than Unleash Rage.

I totally don't get the infernus pistols comment. They are pistols so you still get bonus attacks in combat with them. Obviously meltaguns are better but you can't give a Sarge a meltagun in any case, so the Infernus Pistol is your best bet to boost your anti tank abilities.

jy2 wrote:
Plasma assault marines as objective holders is just ludicrous. If you want an objective-holding unit, get 5 sniper scouts with camo cloaks and a missile launcher. Same cost, but at least they contribute to the battle while sitting on their a$$es. And they're much more resilient with 3+ cover (2+ go-to-ground).

If you are using a jump pack based list then the other option for objective holders are naked combat squads, put all the special weapons in the other combat squad and you don't waste too much.

jy2 wrote:

Powerguy wrote:The main issue with Astorath is his point cost really, his Death Company ability is obviously factored in to his cost so he is hard to justify if you aren't taking Death Company imo.

That's a misconception if I've ever seen one. If you're taking Astorath mainly to take multiple DC's, then you're not playing a very good BA list. The more regular units you have (units that can have the Red Thirst), the better Astorath becomes.

I was basically suggesting that Astorath is somewhat overpriced, multiple Death Company doesn't make a great list obviously but its still usable (which would be one obvious case to take him) and the rest of the time I think he is a tad pricey to justify when you can get many of the benefits he provides in other ways. 2000pts is a minimum size you can really fit him in imo.

jy2 wrote:

Powerguy wrote:
The best thing Blood Angel jump pack lists have going for them is DoA and he didn't use it at all.

That is just suicide against an IG army like his. If they land and don't spread out, they're going to get showered with demolishter blasts, battle cannon blasts, valkyrie missile pods and multiple flamer templates. After which, his meltavets and plasma guys will finish the job. And that's assuming they all land at once. The reality is, even with re-rolls due to DoA, only 1/3 of the army will come in....against his entire army. DoA just doesn't work when you facing a template/blast-heavy army or a very assaulty army (orks, daemons, lash chaos, tyranids, even space wolves to name a few).

How do you figure that 1/3 of his army will come in at once? With DoA statistically you get 3/4s of your reserves on Turn 2 and he would already have the Devestators on the board to begin with, thats not going to be his entire army but at the very least he should have a couple of melta or plasma gun units which he can drop in and start killing things with. The large number of blasts aren't a massive worry actually, for starters you should be targetting the Russes on the drop with melta anyway but with combat squads you just can't kill enough of them in a single turn. For arguments sake lets say he gets the big Plasmagun unit, 1 of the Meltagun units and the Flamer units and a couple of Priests (which would be a pretty unlucky/poor drop, not worst case but not great). He can combat squad everything (giving him 6 units) and should be able to kill 3+ vehicles that turn (allowing for the Devs as well who would probably get a vehicle or two the first turn), next turn you can only drop pie plates on 3 of those squads (assuming the Russes are still running) but even that doesn't ensure they are dead (due to scatter) and killing 15+ Marines with FNP would be a stretch for the rest of your army after it has taken a few hits. A good drop would cripple your army in a single turn, if the Honour Guard and both Melta units show up then he could easily kill 5 vehicles on the drop and with Shield and FNP they are still going to be there next turn. If he only gets a couple of units in on Turn 2 then you are still in a better position than you would be if you are just running at them, you can drop behind cover and start running in next turn as the rest of the list arrives. This essentially bypasses a round or more of shooting and gets you halfway across the board without losing a model.

In any case he doesn't actually have to kill everything on the drop anyway, with this mission simply crippling your mobility would probably be enough to make sure he doesn't lose (as he can target anything going for his objective).

mercer wrote:
He didn't deep strike in because the army then comes in piecemeal, even with re-rolls not massively cool. Would have been better coming at me with all Assault Squad units except the 5 man which should stay on the objective. This would put pressure on me having multiple targets and multiple melta units. However, keeping one melta in reserve would have been use for deep striking I guess, after all it did nothing all game.

He wouldn't force me to castle up with deep striking units...having single units means my force is split and he'd have to thin himself out.

Splitting your army is the perfect matchup for a Deep Striking list like this which still has mobility after the drop. He can drop everything on one part of your army and cripple you before you can react, and then move over to the other part of your force quickly under cover from the Devastators. If he is smart and drops in on flanks of your formations then he will likely get cover from one part of your force trying to to fire past the part he drop on. Doing a split deployment can work against Deep Striking lists but only when they have limited mobility after the drop (like a Drop Pod list), with Jump Packs they can still close on the other part of your force quickly.

Running across the board rather than Deep Striking could still work I guess but it is a far more risky strategy and the Guard player has far more options to deal with it. With limited ability to reduce incoming fire (just the Devs as a ranged threat and they can't touch the Russes who are the main damage dealers) its basically a case of crossing your fingers, running forward as fast as you can and hoping you get to the other side. Its also very vulnerable to movement blocking and screening, you can put sacrificial units out in front to slow them down so they never get close to your main damage dealers. Deep Striking in you are almost guaranteed to do some damage before you start losing infantry and can try and take out the most threatening units to maxmise your chances of surviving another turn. If you do last a turn then the game is well in the BA favour with multiple infantry units in close able to get to your rear armour and infantry units.

Powerguy wrote:

I realise the Chaplain buffs whichever unit he is with, but his re-rolls aren't that powerful unless its a fully power weapon/fist type squad (Death Company, Terminators etc) and in a list like this you really don't need to be any better in combat anyway. You don't have one single unit which can take on an assault based Deathstar unit in any case (no one unit is truely scary in combat even if you add the Chaplain), you are more likely to shoot it to death with melta and the Devs and then mob them with multiple Assault Squads. The points spent on the Chaplain could be far better used to get more damage output basically

Re-rolls to hit are powerful because you still need to wound, the more you hit the more wounds you cause regardless of power weaps. Assault Marines are only WS4, not the best, re-rolls make all the difference when needing 4+ to hit and then 3+ to wound.

None are super hard in assault but that doesn't matter, because there's numbers and plenty of assault units which do the job.

Could the Chaplains points be used else where? Possibly, yes they could. But is the Chaplains re-rolls a benefit, yes they are, they're certainly are better.

Its not hard to cover multiple units with a single Priest, most of the time you are going to be operating close enough together that 3 FNP bubbles should be plenty. You don't have to cover the whole board/all your units in any case, the Priest are free to swap squads and move around to where they are needed most. I can see why people take them though and they aren't a terrible choice, its just I reckon 4 FNP bubbles is overkill.

Yes I know. So you're going to keep majority of your army bunched up together? Three Priests are fine; you suggested two.

Storm Shields are not needed for Combat as much as they are for keeping your unit alive against low AP shooting. Its expensive but I would always try and have 1-2 in the squad to keep them alive longer. If you can't torrent them to death (due to FNP) and can't drop them with low AP weapons either then they become very annoying to deal with. It also means you can put the Librarian in another squad where he has more bodies around him and can get more use from Shield. While I think about it the Librarian should really have Blood Lance actually, would be very helpful against mech lists and more helpful than Unleash Rage.

Sigh, doesn't matter about AP, torrent that small Marine unit and they will die, that's why storm shields aren't required. Enough rolls will make them die storm shields or not. Adding storm shields just makes them too expensive when other units can do the job better and for cheaper points. Librarian doesn't need bloodlance with 4 meltas in the unit does it? What do you think 4 meltas are for? Unleash rage is pop a transport with all those meltas and than charge in...tactics!

I totally don't get the infernus pistols comment. They are pistols so you still get bonus attacks in combat with them. Obviously meltaguns are better but you can't give a Sarge a meltagun in any case, so the Infernus Pistol is your best bet to boost your anti tank abilities.

So you think 15 points to keep a single extra attack and 3" 2D6 melta range is cool? It's not. You've just said, meltaguns are better so why invest more points when 2 meltas are enough. Don't need infernus pistols, don't even match the range of meltaguns anyway.

mercer wrote:
He didn't deep strike in because the army then comes in piecemeal, even with re-rolls not massively cool. Would have been better coming at me with all Assault Squad units except the 5 man which should stay on the objective. This would put pressure on me having multiple targets and multiple melta units. However, keeping one melta in reserve would have been use for deep striking I guess, after all it did nothing all game.

He wouldn't force me to castle up with deep striking units...having single units means my force is split and he'd have to thin himself out.

Splitting your army is the perfect matchup for a Deep Striking list like this which still has mobility after the drop. He can drop everything on one part of your army and cripple you before you can react, and then move over to the other part of your force quickly under cover from the Devastators. If he is smart and drops in on flanks of your formations then he will likely get cover from one part of your force trying to to fire past the part he drop on. Doing a split deployment can work against Deep Striking lists but only when they have limited mobility after the drop (like a Drop Pod list), with Jump Packs they can still close on the other part of your force quickly.

How can it have mobility after the drop as you cannot move? You mean mobility next turn, which will see a probably dead Assault Squad which cannot move. He won't be able to move because he'll be shot at, don't you think I'm gonna shoot at him? All can do is pop tanks, insides will still be standing and can blast those squads with meltas and plasmas etc.

Running across the board rather than Deep Striking could still work I guess but it is a far more risky strategy and the Guard player has far more options to deal with it. With limited ability to reduce incoming fire (just the Devs as a ranged threat and they can't touch the Russes who are the main damage dealers) its basically a case of crossing your fingers, running forward as fast as you can and hoping you get to the other side. Its also very vulnerable to movement blocking and screening, you can put sacrificial units out in front to slow them down so they never get close to your main damage dealers. Deep Striking in you are almost guaranteed to do some damage before you start losing infantry and can try and take out the most threatening units to maxmise your chances of surviving another turn. If you do last a turn then the game is well in the BA favour with multiple infantry units in close able to get to your rear armour and infantry units.

Running does work because you're coming at the enemy with multiple units and can use cover, sure you may take terrain tests next turn. Though deep striking you come in piecemeal and come high priority targets because on the opponents door step, plus you can only nuke vehicles, the troops inside remain with plasma and meltas ready to nuke those Angels. Infantry on foot isn't vulneralbe to movement blocking because jump packs should go right over infantry, turn 2 those Angels could have toasted my tanks, luckily for me they didn't. Deep strikers could toast my tanks turn 2, except only part units would come in and risk scattering, on foot don't. Only benefit is you won't lose your models until next enemy shooting turn, though foot ones can still take out most threatening targets too.

Deep striking has the benefit of keeping troops safe but you don't get the numbers to come in, and you still scatter, but it's only 6" but bunched up enemies can be a pain.

You bound across the board you take damage but have bulk of force coming up and won't scatter and can use cover as well.

Both have risks, but both will succeed one way or another. There is no superior and, as mentioned, he's tried deep striking before and prefers to run instead which has worked a lot better for him.

mercer wrote:
I disagree about about Scouts, I'd rather take a better shooting Tactical Squad but that's just me. Lets face it Scouts aren't hard to take out.

You'd have to spend 170pts for a tact squad though compared to just 100 for the scouts. Tact squads are decent and flexible enough to be all-purpose troops. However, for objective-sitting, nothing in the Marine codices beats sniper scouts. Cheap, resilient enough to shooting and can still contribute at range, they are the best because they are specialized exactly for that role. And who would really bother trying to take them out when you have 4 squads of angry assault marines flying towards you and 3 squads of devastators destroying your tanks?

Powerguy wrote:
How do you figure that 1/3 of his army will come in at once? With DoA statistically you get 3/4s of your reserves on Turn 2 and he would already have the Devestators on the board to begin with, thats not going to be his entire army but at the very least he should have a couple of melta or plasma gun units which he can drop in and start killing things with. The large number of blasts aren't a massive worry actually, for starters you should be targetting the Russes on the drop with melta anyway but with combat squads you just can't kill enough of them in a single turn. For arguments sake lets say he gets the big Plasmagun unit, 1 of the Meltagun units and the Flamer units and a couple of Priests (which would be a pretty unlucky/poor drop, not worst case but not great). He can combat squad everything (giving him 6 units) and should be able to kill 3+ vehicles that turn (allowing for the Devs as well who would probably get a vehicle or two the first turn), next turn you can only drop pie plates on 3 of those squads (assuming the Russes are still running) but even that doesn't ensure they are dead (due to scatter) and killing 15+ Marines with FNP would be a stretch for the rest of your army after it has taken a few hits. A good drop would cripple your army in a single turn, if the Honour Guard and both Melta units show up then he could easily kill 5 vehicles on the drop and with Shield and FNP they are still going to be there next turn. If he only gets a couple of units in on Turn 2 then you are still in a better position than you would be if you are just running at them, you can drop behind cover and start running in next turn as the rest of the list arrives. This essentially bypasses a round or more of shooting and gets you halfway across the board without losing a model.

In any case he doesn't actually have to kill everything on the drop anyway, with this mission simply crippling your mobility would probably be enough to make sure he doesn't lose (as he can target anything going for his objective).

My bad, I meant 1/3 of his army won't come in on average. 4-6 with re-rolls = about 2/3 chance, so about 2/3 of the army will come in on turn 2. There's no need to kill them all on the turn they come in, but the IG army will kill a good majority of them. And you will not destroy 3+ tanks on the turn they come in. This is because 1) the army really does not have enough meltas, 2) not all the meltas may come in, 3) combat squad and there's more chance for you to scatter out of melta-range, 4) if I know that your army is deepstriking, anti-DS deployment and the use of smokes can minimize the damage you can do and 5) there are other results on the vehicle damage table besides 5-6.

jy2 wrote:

mercer wrote:
I disagree about about Scouts, I'd rather take a better shooting Tactical Squad but that's just me. Lets face it Scouts aren't hard to take out.

You'd have to spend 170pts for a tact squad though compared to just 100 for the scouts. Tact squads are decent and flexible enough to be all-purpose troops. However, for objective-sitting, nothing in the Marine codices beats sniper scouts. Cheap, resilient enough to shooting and can still contribute at range, they are the best because they are specialized exactly for that role. And who would really bother trying to take them out when you have 4 squads of angry assault marines flying towards you and 3 squads of devastators destroying your tanks?

Take a 5 man combat squad, not 10. Best compare same number of Scouts with same number of Marines. Snipers aren't that good, only 4 in a unit best for infantry, so best taking hellfire heavy bolter not missile launcher but still hit on 4+ wound on 4+, not brilliant. Good for holding objectives? Yes decent? Can they take punishment? Maybe, depends, fire the wrong stuff or assault them and they die.

Each to their own though, if you like Scouts then cool.

Who is making the blood angel players list.... It's just plan horrible. Here's what needs changed or you'll never win.

First you don't need 90 priest. 2 should be enough for any army. 4 is WAY to many.

Second if you are taking honor guard then put them in a razor back. No reason to have them all get shot up with their melta guns. If you have jump packs (which I didn't see on the list) then they keep them as is and drop in.

Third Chaplin doesn't fit in the list as you have mostly jump packers and when you field this kind of army you need as many dudes as possible. One librarian is enough.

The priest NEED power weapons. They WILL get into hand to hand. If you think others wise then I will do us all a favor and never reply to another reports for ya ever again. It's 15 points on a dude that has WS 5 STR5 and INT 5 with 4 Attacks. Comes on dude, do the math.

The Devastators are horrible bro lol. If you are taking devies (which I do like) then make them at least squads of 8. It's always a good rule of thumb that you should do the guard approach to heavy weapons, one extra body to every gun.

The assault squad with flamers needs a power weapon or fist. If you tell me that you don't plan on them getting stuck in, I quit.

I know how you say you like the assault squads to hold objectives but take one tac squad to hold your own and you can keep the other to hold others. Honestly though, the more men you throw at the enemy, most of the time it turns into who can hold their own objective that wins.

I've typed enough but I had to comment as I have read like 4 battle reports from you two and the blood angel guy is always screwed. I know you'll have your arguments for things but at least try what others say from time to time, because if not, then why post your stuff online?

Always good to see a game like this

theblessing8386 wrote:Who is making the blood angel players list.... It's just plan horrible. Here's what needs changed or you'll never win.

First you don't need 90 priest. 2 should be enough for any army. 4 is WAY to many.

I wrote the list for him and it does extremely well thanks, looking at your suggestions yours would make a lot worse list. 90 Priest? Needs more than 2. 3 is fine.

Second if you are taking honor guard then put them in a razor back. No reason to have them all get shot up with their melta guns. If you have jump packs (which I didn't see on the list) then they keep them as is and drop in.

Excellent idea! Put Honur Guard inside a Razorback, the only one in the army and have them get out to fire because no hatch on the Razorback!

Third Chaplin doesn't fit in the list as you have mostly jump packers and when you field this kind of army you need as many dudes as possible. One librarian is enough.

Chaplain isn't needed to make an assault unit better in combat? Librarian only benefits the unit he's attached with. Where do you think the Chaplain is going?

The priest NEED power weapons. They WILL get into hand to hand. If you think others wise then I will do us all a favor and never reply to another reports for ya ever again. It's 15 points on a dude that has WS 5 STR5 and INT 5 with 4 Attacks. Comes on dude, do the math.

Looks like you haven't done any maths yourself. A single one wound I.C is pointless putting a power weapon on as will die either way. So, yeah, do me a favour and stop replying then, because so far just bad advice. Real bad....single Razorback FFS

The Devastators are horrible bro lol. If you are taking devies (which I do like) then make them at least squads of 8. It's always a good rule of thumb that you should do the guard approach to heavy weapons, one extra body to every gun.

Yes excellent idea! Make a cheaper unit with plenty of fire power more expensive just to get bodybags, great one....

The assault squad with flamers needs a power weapon or fist. If you tell me that you don't plan on them getting stuck in, I quit.

Where do you think the Chaplain goes?

I know how you say you like the assault squads to hold objectives but take one tac squad to hold your own and you can keep the other to hold others. Honestly though, the more men you throw at the enemy, most of the time it turns into who can hold their own objective that wins.

Assault Squads still have mobility, Tacticals do not. It's an all jump pack army minus the heavy support so Tactical do not fit. Have you counted how many Marines this has? It's 69 which is quite a lot.

I've typed enough but I had to comment as I have read like 4 battle reports from you two and the blood angel guy is always screwed. I know you'll have your arguments for things but at least try what others say from time to time, because if not, then why post your stuff online?

No it doesn't get screwed at all. He loses but he's not aggressive enough. I don't post my stuff to get comments on army lists, I post to share reports and if I do want comments I expect it to be good advice and not some babble and people know what they're talking about. Honestly, single Razorback and you need to get the Marines out to fire - same as jump packs!!!!!

I've posted a doubles report actually, me and Kris using his Angels against two other guys. Angels won which can save you reading if you want or to show that the army is pretty decent and can win, when used right.

But for now, don't bother wasting your time posting unless feedback. Single Razorback and power weapon on the Priest is just dumb

There seems to be a large group of people on here who think that it was the list which lost me the game.

WTF! A list can only carry you so far. If you actually took the time to read my list you would see that it is actually good IMHO, and as far as I am concerned that's all that is important.

What lost me this battle was the tactical mistakes not the list!!

Now to all those people who have been having a go at Mercer, I just ask one question, WHY? The guy has spent a lot of time helping me get back into the game, and helped me work on my list. Yes he provided me with the basics which i then adjusted.

To all those people who say put power weapons on priests, why? They don't need them, they are a cheap power buff unit. Bury them in a big enough squad and you get at leat a couple of combats before they die. They have one wound they are going to die easily at some point anyway so those 15 points are better spent elsewhere.

A single razorback in a jump list? theblessing wtf have you been smoking?? One tin box isn't going to last long at all, the whole point of this list is to make melta and other anti-tank weapons ineffective.

I'm all for people having there own opinions but I just wish they would put them as such and not as "advice".

So to summarise if you don't like the battle report that's fine just don't go wating bandwidth with your hate, just stop reading and move on. To all those people who enjoyed it, thank you no doubt there will be more opportunities for you to read these sort of reports. To those who start to moan, when I want your opinion I'll give it to you.

On another note, after our doubles games when me and Kris joined together in the next singles game Kris did really well And, TBH most the tactics in the doubles game were yours, not mine, I just game the first few ideas and then after shoot at where.

Im sure you were coaching him great... oh and by the way, don't jump me because you don't have the list written wrong. It doesn't say anything about jump packs on the honor guard and I was trying to help a guy seeing as the rest of the list is so bad that I thought who ever made it was dumb enough to walk them across the table.

I won't comment to any more of the list, as I said that I wouldn't.

Have fun letting this guy beat you Kris

Dude, you come across all wrest what do you expect?

Yeah I missed off jump packs on the honour guard but surely you would have figured librarian with pack is attatched to unit without packs is odd? And if so why suggest razorback? Common sense would be pack on honour guard, not single transport.

As for besting me, well if you read my other reports you'd see I win a lot of games, not blowing my own horn like. For your info kris won in a double game we had.

So, if you're going to give list advice please make sure it's decent and not suggest a single tank in a all jump army, it's just stupidity.

It is decent advice, I just commented on how bad the list is. I showed it to everyone I know on different gaming groups in 3 diff states I have been to to see if I was crazy and it's about a 90% the list is bad consensus. What do us crazy Americans know though.

Lol, and to smash your horn all the games I have seen you win are against people who don't know wtf they are doing ha ha.

No, afriad it's not decent advice. Single Razorback? Yeah awesome idea! You're made of win!

Cool you've shown people the other side of the world who I don't know; thanks! I think it's more of a case what you don't know TBH.

Haha haha obivously not reading my bat reps are you, you've been signed up here since March so unless you haven't registered you've missed plenty of other bat reps. Like I care anyway, only friendly games. Plus I didn't do too bad in a recent tournament anyway. But, what do I know, your obivously the man offering quality advice suggesting take a single tank in a jump list, awesome, you really know your gak. Best thing of all appears you don't even play Blood Angels from your signature!

If you don't like what I've got to say or want to read then stop clicking on the link to this bat rep! Stop going on with your "advice" too because I'm afriad it's not good, plus doesn't even look like you play Blood Angels! And, honestly, you really think we're going to care what you and "three states" worth of gamers say about a army list the other side of the world who we will never meet? Get a grip man. Post constructive feedback, comments and quality suggestions for list. Don't come over like a arsehole saying "don't take my advice I won't post again" we're not taking your advice so can you stop posting? Or if you've got some good advice or a good list then please post it, but if it's gak then I will say so.