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Briefly, I collected an army for No Limits. It was the first game I'd played where frag grenades actually hurt someone - they had a 1" explosive radius. But in 40k and Fast and Dirty (amongst others), it doesn't seem to do that. Grenades in 40k simply equalize assault striking time in the assault phase, and in Fast and Dirty they don't come into play at all unless you -lack- them. Surely they could be a short ranged blast weapon with a strength equal to some multiple of the squad population, perhaps only most useful vs guns when you toss them over things like walls.

What do you guys think?

M.

Back in 2nd edition they used to be short ranged blast weapons. The problem came when you had entire squads throwing frags - that could potentially scatter - and working out what got hit how many times. Some form of abstraction was needed to make them practical, even if you don't think the specific choice made by GW was the right one.

Well, they do hurt vehicles in assault.

What AlexHolker said. Add to that a squad could have multiple grenade types, and it got very complicated very quickly.

Grenades do hurt people in assault.

Not all the wounds caused by "attacks" are from your chainswords you know

IG grenade launchers work : D.

I don't really want to go through ten low str low ap blast templates that would happen if nades actually could be thrown. It would just bog the game down way too much.

All good points. I think it'd at best be a single blast at S4 AP6 or something, maybe with a range of ~10 inches. In No Limits grenades had individual 1" templates and it didn't bog down too much at all, but I think I may be more patient than the average 40k player (around here at least).

M.

Grenade Launcher frag grenades are S3 AP6, so your idea for damage value might a bit too high. 10" throw range might be a bit high, too - I'd go with the demolition charge throw range of 6", one of the few weapons in 40k where you know that they are actually just objects thrown by musclework.

But, yeah, I think the way they are at the moment, they are okay. It's abstract, but it works. If your Marines stomp some traitor guardsmen in CC the next time, just imagine that from the 6 heretics that died two were fragged by, well, a frag grenade, and not by chainswords as usual.

2nd edition had a great multitude of grenade types, from your basic frag, up to vortex and smoke and even anti-plant. Basically gotten rid of because it was too complex to throw out 5 or 6 templates and calculate who was under them.

Yeah very true. I used to love grenades back in the old rogue trader days but as much as I miss them now, I don't think I'd handle all the maths work in larger games!

I think grenades work OK as they are now but would perhaps be better called flash grenades or stun grenades as that's what the effects resemble more than a frag grenade.

They... do?

They ignore cover saves by blasting the squad with flak, like a real grenade. Defensive grenades are flash grenades, canceling charge bonuses. Krak grenades have an explosion radius too small to be effective against anything but a vehicle. Grenade launchers are S3, which is fine because it's a tiny fething explosion.

Think about it, how do people use grenades? They use them to assault enemies hidden behind gak. If you think they are instadeath explosions that randomly send people flying and kill them, you've been watching too much Rambo.

Anyone remember the Hallucinogenic Grenades

Ordo Dakka wrote:They... do?

They ignore cover saves by blasting the squad with flak, like a real grenade. Defensive grenades are flash grenades, canceling charge bonuses. Krak grenades have an explosion radius too small to be effective against anything but a vehicle. Grenade launchers are S3, which is fine because it's a tiny fething explosion.

Think about it, how do people use grenades? They use them to assault enemies hidden behind gak. If you think they are instadeath explosions that randomly send people flying and kill them, you've been watching too much Rambo.

Im sorry but your totally wrong.

They are not used to ASSAULT enemies behind cover, and frag grenades have a 50 foot kill radius (fact).

Sure, they dont send people flying, but they will kill you. They are designed to kill you. They are designed to be employed when firing a gun is ineffective, when an enemy is entrenched in cover, and when it is more dangerous to your own life to fire at them.

They are the modern day flamethrower.

kenshin620 wrote:Anyone remember the Hallucinogenic Grenades

Necromunda has Grenades as thrown weapons, including Hallicinogen grenades; as well as Choke Gas, Frag, Krak, Photon Flash Flares and Web Grenades IIRC. If you want a game that's 40K but more 'real', then Necroumunda's for you (provided you pay extortiantely for the models. )

The OC-D

I can see the rules now... Count as defensive grenades, a unit that is hit by them moves randomly (scatter die) in their next movement phase, and a scatter die determines where they shoot. If a friendly unit is indicated, they shoot at them. Ah, that'd be so weird, random and fun.

As I remember training frag grenades were mostly to chuck into pillboxes or trenches. Open field they have a theoretical 50 foot kill range but that's assuming the isn't anything in the way of the shrapnel. The blast itself isn't so impressive, it's just the flying metal bits that get you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brotherjulian wrote: As I remember training frag grenades were mostly to chuck into pillboxes or trenches. Open field they have a theoretical 50 foot kill range but that's assuming the isn't anything in the way of the shrapnel. The blast itself isn't so impressive, it's just the flying metal bits that get you.

edit- my 2nd ed techmarines (and every marine player used techmarines) always had rad grenades. Plague marines with blight grenades just slayed harlequins

Nah, it would get too complicated. Just be happy melta bombs do something that isn't assault related

Brotherjulian wrote: edit- my 2nd ed techmarines (and every marine player used techmarines) always had rad grenades. Plague marines with blight grenades just slayed harlequins

Fond memories indeed...

micahaphone wrote:I can see the rules now... Count as defensive grenades, a unit that is hit by them moves randomly (scatter die) in their next movement phase, and a scatter die determines where they shoot. If a friendly unit is indicated, they shoot at them. Ah, that'd be so weird, random and fun.

Sounds more infuriating and time-consuming, like what about rage?

Mostly as far as I can tell, it's just poorly designed grenade rules for 40k. Grenades (effectively) don't work on infantry. Also, why on Earth would you use grenades in ASSAULT? Sounds like an easy way to blow yourself up really. I think all this stems from the dumbing down of 40k in 3rd edition from 2nd. I can kinda see this because if you used them currently we're talking like 10+ grenades flying, blast templates all around. Grenades would have to be a BUNCH of points. A buddy of mine and I playtested grenade house rules back in 3rd, and found that for the points, they were just evil. We only played a game with them, the rest of the "playtesting" was just theory, so I'm not sure we did a good job.

I figured they'd be a single blast radius, probably the smaller one or some such, with a strength based roughly on the number of units throwing frags. So one template for an entire squad.

M.

Jaon wrote:
They are the modern day flamethrower.

Grenades were developed before Flamethrowers (discounting the Byzantine Empire of course).

By the way, here's your meltabomb

/\ One of many things in all honesty I like to be far, far, away from.