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That's rough.

And yeah, I feel a lot of people seem to think that him going above and beyond in some capacities make him untouchable on everything else. Plus that ever-present fanboy mentality that buying in to something is aligning your lifestyle to it, and that criticizing it is criticizing your lifestyle, which must be defended.

Rather disappointing. While im pretty happy with the deal i got ( still, i dont think the end product is worth 400$, but at a 100$ it was a very good deal) there's a few thing that were really mishandled and would make me reconsider backing another ks (cough assembly guides cough).


Must say that it is very interesting, sociologically wise, to see the cult mentality that has developped around kd.

Don't think it's at all specific to KD: look at any reasonably but not extremely popular game, and I think you'll see a similar mode develop sooner or later.

Responding in a debate with the equivalent of "you're just in a fanboi cult" is much the same as people who say "at the end of day, [insert actual position here]". It really is meaningless.

Disparaging the motive of the person you are debating with doesn't do anything to further your own position. Especially in the case of Kingdom Death, where the company simply would not exist without a core group of genuine fans.

Not everything has to meet everyone's expectations.

As Tannhauser42 said, there really is no justification for the vitriol that's being generated about this. I am disappointed that he cancelled the last expansion but he did refund everyone and didn't skimp on quality for what he did deliver (everything else). We got a LOT with this kickstarter. We got a great game with amazing models for a comparatively light investment.

Consider McVey/CMoN who gave us that disastrous Alabaster thing. What a feth farm that was. You can also look at Raging Heroes who started a new Kickstarter before fulfillment was completed on the first one. Or other kickstarters who seemed to disappear once the money had been collected.

It's okay to be disappointed with this latest update and to even be a little annoyed should the Lantern models appear in his upcoming kickstarter (they likely will) but saying stuff like, "poots is either incompetent or has the scruples of GW" is nothing more than trolling for the sake of trolling.

To those who are posting that they won't be backing his next project; none of you are obligated to continue to buy from Poots or anyone else so, see ya. To those who post that they'll look it over and either pledge or not based on what Poots has to offer, I'm right there with ya.

Also a sick of people pulling the "cult" card when people won't agree with their post.

Nothing like demonizing people to marginalize them.

people are not pulling the cult card cause they disagree with others, they are pulling it cause some are blindly defending Poots and almost painting him as a saint (always laugh when I see some people pretending that Poots is actually losing huge sums of money on KD, or that it doesn't matter that he still haven't gave us asssembly guide cause some (bad) unofficial ones exist). Even if it bothers you, some will call a spade a spade.

Though, to be honest, some are also way too critical of him. At the end of the day, he seems like a pretty decent guy, and he gave us a quality product, but he's also far from being above criticism (must say that the t-shirt thing is a bit cynical)

I think the t-shirt thing is a bit of fun (although it can clearly be taken as cynical)

but remember when the pinups of death box first launched with a discount, he offered the option to pay full price for it too to support the company

and those that did make that choice found something extra in their packages as a thank you for their faith (I missed out as I grabbed the discount)

i'm certainly not saying he'll do something similar with the t-shirt but I do wonder if he might (perhaps combined with the new KS)

 streetsamurai wrote:
people are not pulling the cult card cause they disagree with others, they are pulling it cause some are blindly defending Poots and almost painting him as a saint (always laugh when I see some people pretending that Poots is actually losing huge sums of money on KD, or that it doesn't matter that he still haven't gave us asssembly guide cause some (bad) unofficial ones exist). Even if it bothers you, some will call a spade a spade.

Though, to be honest, some are also way too critical of him. At the end of the day, he seems like a pretty decent guy, and he gave us a quality product, but he's also far from being above criticism (must say that the t-shirt thing is a bit cynical)

Well put. IDK, it's hard to get perspective when I'm personally invested in something and it feels like expression of that investment gets labeled as vitriol instead of "hey, this point is fine, this point is a bit of a stretch," so there's not much room to debate (and, in doing so, refine opinions, recognize your own flaws, etc.).

I'm super salty about the cancellation, but the nigh-conspiracy levels of thought going into this from some quarters is beyond the pale.

Also, one thing that I think a lot of people forget is that, for better and for worse, KD:M was one of the very first huge runaway gaming KS projects - it plunged into uncharted territory that we, looking back with three years of experience and dealing with later projects that learned from KD:M's troubles and mistakes, seems very well-tread and handled now.

That's a fair point, it really was in the second and still very early set of large game KS's.

 Breotan wrote:
As Tannhauser42 said, there really is no justification for the vitriol that's being generated about this. I am disappointed that he cancelled the last expansion but he did refund everyone and didn't skimp on quality for what he did deliver (everything else). We got a LOT with this kickstarter. We got a great game with amazing models for a comparatively light investment.

Consider McVey/CMoN who gave us that disastrous Alabaster thing. What a feth farm that was. You can also look at Raging Heroes who started a new Kickstarter before fulfillment was completed on the first one. Or other kickstarters who seemed to disappear once the money had been collected.

It's okay to be disappointed with this latest update and to even be a little annoyed should the Lantern models appear in his upcoming kickstarter (they likely will) but saying stuff like, "poots is either incompetent or has the scruples of GW" is nothing more than trolling for the sake of trolling.

To those who are posting that they won't be backing his next project; none of you are obligated to continue to buy from Poots or anyone else so, see ya. To those who post that they'll look it over and either pledge or not based on what Poots has to offer, I'm right there with ya.

Indeed. I backed Sedition Wars and was super let down. I got everything I pledged for, and it was significantly less awesome than I'd hoped for. Kingdom Death blew me away. Taking your time and really making sure that everything about your game or project is of the highest standard and meets or exceeds your expectations is the way I'd prefer. I will wait longer and risk having some of the stuff I wanted not show up - with a refund and apology - than have a sub par product. I can understand why people who only wanted the minis are upset, hopefully in the next kickstarter there is the option of buying solely the specific miniatures that would have been shipped for a reasonable price.

Sedition Wars had the problem that minis were fine, but the game itself was awful, and made worse in the 2nd edition rules, which people paid for and found incorporated absolutely ZERO community feedback or testing. That completely killed the game for me.

Kingdom Death overdelivered on quality and quality. Big difference.

Sedition wars had miniatures so bad that I never even tried out the rules to see how bad they were :p

For KD, yes, the nonsense about how he's trying to swindle people is silly - but the "quality" explanation is disingenuous.

If there was the choice of miniatures only or a refund - or if he'd just said I can't afford it anymore without bankrupting myself then it would feel less like I'm being taken for a fool.

Still, as others have said, we got a great deal on the other stuff, so the relatively little amount lost on this refund malarkey isn't too hard to take

I am sorry SW minis were not fine, just looking at them puts me off from even thinking of assembling them.

Seriously the only good thing that came from sedition wars was the 3D terrain and one box that I made a comfortable bed for my cat.

I guess I should clarify - the SW minis were a PITA to assemble, but they looked fine when built.

Another thing to consider is that when the actual Kingdom Death: Monster Kickstarter campaign was going on, the assumption was that the miniatures would have been softer plastic, like in the "Experiment of Death"-kit which was similar to the material of Reapers Bones-models. Poots then proceeded to throw in enough of his own resources to upgrade each and everyone of those miniatures into proper (and vastly more expensive), incredibly high quality HIPS-models. So him not being able to deliver the same quality for the biggest individual expansion of the game for 45$... I have no problem believing that. Also he had cited gameplay-problems with the expansion from early on, so his own dissatisfaction with the product was well established and it is obvious he really wanted to deliver, but in the end, just could not justify the final product for the cost involved.

I personally do feel sad for not getting an extension to the campaign play as admittedly, it is a harder sell to my regular gaming group to hurl them into that dark purgatory with only the promise of miserable death at the end when the lights go out/Mother Sun devours/Dragon detonates. So, personal loss but one I can completely understand from a delightfully mad Poots.

And I shall be throwing more money his way come the second Kickstarter simply for the appreciation I have for his pursuit of perfection in a time when so many Kickstarters fail even the most basic expectations now that you really cannot say that we all are not aware of all the pitfalls of kickstarting a boardgame or any other project.

Kingdom Death, to this day, still stands as the single, sole project that always overdelivered on every facet of the game. All you need to do is compare the original kickstarter notes to the final product and the mind simply boggles at the scope of enhancements done, mostly on Poots' own resources and money and time and effort.

The game was good as it was and was a great deal. I ended up selling my kickatarter set for just over $2000. The game was great for the kickstarter price, but I couldn't turn down that price for the game and all made expansions. I'll pledge again if the price is decent, and if the game won't be as limited.

$2 grand? Wow. I just sold off enough odds & ends to cover the amount I spent. Even if you drop $500 to (re-)buy stuff, you're well ahead on things.

I'll be straight up, I wanted the King, plain and simple. Adam also really irritates me. I live in world of deadlines and structure though. People seem to think its funny at this point that he fails to ever have an update when he says he will. "Pootsian time"...
The game was great, but alot of stuff is great and not a 3 year wait.

I think what also makes me angriest is that I will be backing his second KS after putting up with this crap for 3 years... I at least want the new rule book and cards, but fear the wait..

In our group, we liked him to Michaelangelo painting the Sistene Chapel.

Pope Julius II - When will you make an end?

Michaelangelo - When I am finished!

Pulling the plug on the Lantern Festival is entirely in character, akin to Michaelangelo smashing his own statuary because it was not right.

Has anyone received their refund?

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
In our group, we liked him to Michaelangelo painting the Sistene Chapel.

Pope Julius II - When will you make an end?

Michaelangelo - When I am finished!

Pulling the plug on the Lantern Festival is entirely in character, akin to Michaelangelo smashing his own statuary because it was not right.

Artists, eh?

I really want to back the next Kickstarter (kicking myself for not backing the original!) but I'm worried about the price. It ended up being about $300 for the game didn't it?

 primalexile wrote:
Has anyone received their refund?

I got my refund notification before I got my Kickstarter update email. Though I already had a paypal account, and made a purchase for the Wet Nurse test sculpts some time ago.

I got the refund before the email too, it sits on the paypal balance.

 primalexile wrote:
Has anyone received their refund?

Yes. Already spent it on GW products.

Will also buy more Sedition Wars...

hahaha, dude I bought some Sisters of Silence off ebay as soon as the fund hit.

 primalexile wrote:
Has anyone received their refund?

yes mine came through on 6th Nov (in $US)

it's going to go the email address you used for the KS so if you've switched it you may need to contact them

Chopxsticks wrote:
I think what also makes me angriest is that I will be backing his second KS after putting up with this crap for 3 years... I at least want the new rule book and cards, but fear the wait.

The updated rulebook and card pack will be in the KD store, not a KS item. The big question for people that already have the games is if any new expansions are going to be funded via the KS.

JohnHwangDD wrote:In our group, we liked him to Michaelangelo painting the Sistene Chapel.

Pope Julius II - When will you make an end?

Michaelangelo - When I am finished!

Pulling the plug on the Lantern Festival is entirely in character, akin to Michaelangelo smashing his own statuary because it was not right.

So true, so true...which is why I believe that while financial considerations were a factor in cancelling the Lantern Festival, the stated reasons was the prime cause, with financial being more of a "making a very hard decision a bit easier" on his part. He *is* a diva, after all.

ImAGeek wrote:
I really want to back the next Kickstarter (kicking myself for not backing the original!) but I'm worried about the price. It ended up being about $300 for the game didn't it?

Final retail for KD:M was $400. It's a case of yes, it's a lot of money if ultimately you just let it sit around - but if you build and paint models and play it even semi-regularly, there's certainly $400 worth of content there. I suspect the KS reprint price will be lower, with $300 being a "Would be really nice without overreaching but don't count on it" on the hopes and expectations.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 primalexile wrote:
Has anyone received their refund?

Yes. Already spent it on GW products.

Will also buy more Sedition Wars...

Is SW still super cheap? I still have my box set, 95% built, gathering dust.