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I went into my GW today for some stuff for my son. The Assistant was very happy to deal with my enquiries (although cagey about a new Grey Knights codex..). Sensing a sale he asked if I played myself. "Not much, but I've been playing Epic for a while now.."I replied. He launched into some spiel about Apocalypse allowing me to field masses of troops and armour and basically being the best thing since...well, ever..So I asked the fateful question "Why did GW have to write a whole set of rules, when it has Epic: Armageddon which, with 2-3 more forces, would do the job better???" He tried to convince me that fielding 5000 points in 28mm was "awesome", but just avoided the question really....

So, is Apocalypse better at representing REALLY large armies than Epic?? Is it simply a question of cost (producing a rulebook is cheap compared with launching Necrons, Tau and 'Nids in 6mm)? Is it a question of customer satisfaction (people are intimidated painting a 6mm Marine, people like more detail..) or is Apocalypse simply a better system?????

Answers on a postcard..or failing that, just hit reply.

It makes for a more satisfying game, for me anyway. It looks like there's more on the table due to the scale of the models, which adds to the drama of the battle.
Other than that, I dunno.

Fair enough..

Apoc just looks cool. You have a lot of really big stuff covering an entire table, where as epic you have a lot of little stuff covering a table. Plus it's more accesable for normal 40k players. Instead of having to buy and paint entirely new armies, all they have to do is augment their existing armies.

But I do see your point...

Yep definitely sounds like a GW staff sales pitch alright.

Epic is way better as a system for representing huge scale battles. However personally I find Apocalypse has more of a fun factor about it than epic ever did and I do agree with the staffer on the point that is is just pretty awesome.

Thats really what I thought. If you play a lot of 40K, then you just have to keep collecting. Epic is a faff. I love it, but my forces were purchased from a charity shop for a total of £15 for like, three shoe boxes full. If I had a big 40k force (which I don't) I guess I'd go for Apoc too rather than having to look on ebay (the main source of epic stuff for me.. cheap but just a bit of a faff))

The reason I prefer Apoc is because I don't have to use Epic's models

Is it age too?? Is Epic just something old gamers play??

Long ago when i was in highschool I think I last played Epic. It was actually a box of it a couple of friends and i found hidden in an old cupboard. It was a fun lunchtime thing to play but nowadays I like apoc for the scale and drama offered.

I bet if Epic was still played with the plastic Titan models that Adeptus Titanicus was played with, there would be more people playing it. The forefather of Epic was awesome!

I am a modeller and painter first, tiny epic models just don't interest me at all. If I want the special thrill of a big battle, I would use the models I own, together with the models my friends own. Quite satisfactory to be able to use them all, even some seldom used units because of FOC restrictions or big Forge World models. It is just a matter of taste and I wouldn't recommend Apocalypse games to a beginner with 500 points of models.

I like apocalypse for the huge titan madels, I wish I had one.

Apocolypse has model saturation and is a live edition to 40k. Epic is a stand alone system thats essentially not being supported any more.

Epic is a great system for large scale battles. The only problem is the models are just a tad too small. Not being sarcastic either.

When you paint them, it's nearly impossible to do a good job. Base colour, drybrush, highlight, pick out guns with black and silver... There's just no meat to it. Even in the tanks, there too small to spend any time with.

Once you get to things like titans, you're painting things about the size of a standard 40k figure, so you can do a bit of detail. When the army is all done, after the time spent painting... Most of the army is still too small to be able to be proud of what you've painted.

They need to make a new version with support for all the current 40k races, and double the size of the models. The standard infantry are what, 6mm tall? bring them to about 10-12mm, so they're small enough to have large amounts of on the table, but big enough that you can spend time painting them.

Tanks would end up the size of a matchbox car, and titans about the size of a dreadnought. More room to paint details on the more impressive parts of your army. this would work well with huge armies on a standard 40k 6x4 table.

I dont like the fact that epic's range of minis is... kinda limited.. to say the least.

Mukkin'About wrote:I dont like the fact that epic's range of minis is... kinda limited.. to say the least.

It's not really limited. There's a lot of stuff that's available exclusively in Epic scale, just as there's a lot of stuff that 40K examines more closely.

bring them to about 10-12mm

Or bump it on up to 15mm. It's a fairly popular scale. Battlefront uses it for Flames of War (as well as their Vietnam one-shot).


The real difference between the two games is that Epic was designed from the ground up as a complete game system that GW hasn't supported for quite some time. Apocalypse was designed as a way to take every last model that you had sitting on the shelf and get them all into one massive game. Epic models and integrates the various combat arms and units much more effectively, while Apoc focuses on letting you play the biggest brawl possible on your game table.

And on justifying the purchase of $100 plastic miniatures.

Apocalypse is better than Epic because..........????????

I don't think it is personally (but then again, my formative years were spent playing 2nd Ed Epic).

I think Epic allows greater scale to be introduced. For instance, I could quite easily play a 6k to 7k fight between several of my 40k armies but then again, I could just as easily muster up a 30k point match between my Epic armies and with much more varied units than those that currently exist in 40k now.

The best joy comes in playing linked campaigns where the Epic battles form the overall view and the 40k battles are a 'zoomed in' subset of the campaign. If done well, it can be a good laugh.

Consider for a moment, and feel sympathy for, the mindless automaton that accosted you in the store. All semblance of personality and individuality has been removed, he answers only to the hive mind now.

While he was telling you about the 'revolution' of deciding to field loads of models on the tabletop*, the tiny part of his soul which still remained was screaming and banging on the walls of its prison, wanting to tell you that Epic: Armageddon is the finest rules system that GW has ever released.
It's a wonderful, wonderful game. Yeah a mass of 28mm (and Titan, if you are fortunate) looks impressive, but so too does an equivalent size of epic. A game with 6 or 7 titans on each side and hundreds of tanks is something which will never, ever be achievable in the larger scale, and means you can add a massive sense of gravitas (make it epic in fact! ) to your games.

Personally I would thoroughly recommend it. If you have a small epic force, take it to your local club and try and get people playing. The merits of the game system will mean most people will enjoy it, and I think a lot of people like the idea of collecting a force in 2 different scales (if you then add a BFG fleet as well, you have the potential for tremendous campaign games without having to spend $800)

*sarcasm - because no-one had thought of doing that before Games Workshop !

Epic, like any 6mm game isn't about the gorgeous models it is about the battles, and the look of the battlefield as a whole.

The scale allows a player to field a realistic size force on the table top and play at something approaching realistic weapon ranges. This brings a new dynamic to tactics.

I had not played Epic and basing on the models I would not want to. Thing I like about the 28mm scale is the amount of good detail you could put in it, then when you magnify that to apoc scale you'd come to appreciate the awesome big models with details and the cool terrains that go with them. Imagining Epic, do they also scale the buildings and ruins and mountains there?
Sorry my post would be biased since I had not collected Epic nor played it.

I don't think it should be a case of 'either/or'

I agree that an apocalypse game can look awesome, but then so can a 20-30,000pt a side 6mm game. Most apoc games I have seen have featured hordes of unpainted or even unfinished miniatures, and I think that can detract massively from the overall effect. Yeah that baneblade looks awesome, but the orcs with no arms attacking it ruins the look on the battlefield. It is very rare that you see a 6mm game with unpainted minis, its that much easier to get them painted up!

And as a game system sorry but 40k can't come even close, epic is far more tactical (with a lot more input by the player into events), as anyone who has played both systems will tell you.

++EDIT++ I guess my overall argument would be that epic has a right to exist alongside 40k, and offers an entirely different experience. I don't think its right that people who haven't played the 6mm system are trying to deny this.

Obviously, then, it's not so much that the rules are better for large forces, but the overall experience. My feeling is that if Epic hadn't have been nerfed then players would be more familiar with the smaller figures . As it is, people would rather paint detailed figures than play another rule set-and that's fair enough. If you have spent time and money on your Blood Angels, then why should you spend more time and money learning more rules (even if they ARE easier..) and painting much less attractive models (even if it DOES take less time.. ). So, fair play..GW seem to have got it right. IMO that's a shame, as I like Epic very much..but still.

Just want to point out that you can play Epic Scale Marines , IG, Orks, Titan Legions and Eldar no bother. You can play Tau and 'Nids too if you want to scour ebay. Lists also exist for Chaos Marines, Necrons and Dark Eldar too-if you don't mind converting. And you can gets the rules for free, for Epic; Armageddon (GW current rules) as well as NetEpic (for those that want something more second ed...a bit more complex..)
I wish Apoc players well...

Here's my take.

Epic might be a better system, I don't know I have never played. What I do know is with Apoc, I can use the models I already have, and therefor I don't have to send any more money.

With Epic, I have to buy the rule book, buy the models, and those models can only be used in a game of Epic.

With Apoc, I have to buy a rule book. I can use the models I already have so no other purchases required on my part. So is no one else wants to play Apoc I am out a rule book. If no one wants to play, Epic, I am out a lot of money.

Because it uses 40k models and rules, plus you can actually see the detail on the models. Most of the Epic stuff sort of struck me as "half formed" looking. Not uncool, but compared to 28mm scale they were just not as detailed. For obvious reasons, I mean they are epic scaled. lol

Because Epic Daemons are horribly out of scale

I prefer Apoc over epic simply because of the whole magnitude. I like to customize each and every one of my space marines, and the thought of seeing them all in one massive battle is awesome. Epic is nice, but customizing the models is pretty limited, while for Apoc you can see that one captain you worked hard on kill everything around him (over exaggeration) or that bunch of tanks blowing apart that platoon of guards.

Apoc is awful! 40k is a company level skirmish game and it just gets too bogged down at these huge point levels and I as a player dont have 2 days I can devote to just one game of toy soldiers...

I'm pretty much on the same page as Melissa. I've got the models for 40k and know most of the rules already. My friends and I do one or two Apoc games a year for giggles mainly. We're pretty happy with 40k, so it doesn't make sense to learn a new game for a couple of kicks a year.

These are the images that got me into 40k. The Epic scale just blew my teenage mind away. Thats why I will always love SM and Epic.

Edit- I hope it OK to use these scans, if its not, sorry. Just take them down.

Because I said so * Hits OP with sword hilt * That's what happens when people question me * Angry looking face *

Epic is awesome. They really need to move towards that scale of game. Let's hope 6th edition includes Spearhead rules as standard, and drops the point-cost of everything by 50% and borrows some rules abstractions from Epic while they're at it.