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**Kanluwen**

I didn't say "with their current army book".

I said they were "released with their army books".

The Nurglings I can go as far back as "Warriors of Chaos" and see the same models.
Tomb Swarms, of course, were with the Tomb Kings book.

Jungle Swarms came out with the previous Lizardmen book.

Snotlings I'm not sure about.

Rat Swarms are at least two book iterations old.

And I really wouldn't say they're "fully capable of doing swarms on sprues". One swarm per infantry box is not really "fully capable" I think.

**Jackal**

Your right in saying they have the ability to make a swarm box.
wouldnt me much different from the gretchin box.

However, wouldnt be the best idea for thier proffit would it?
They are a small ish elite unit, no one will buy tons of them.
Being metal they charge more too.

I still say your better off finding some small humming bird toys from somewhere

I did look at warmaster eagles, but they are more expensive for 3 on a base lol.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit:

Kan - Rat swarms came out with the previous book, in the same release as throt.

**Kanluwen**

How many Skaven books have there been anyways?

**Jackal**

Current one, previous, and an old old one i think (dont quote me on that)

However, there was a PDF between the 1st and 2nd, and constant character update PDF's.

**NAVARRO**

Man that reminds that someting along the lines of the swarm sprues of warhammer quest would be awesome, even if they did pack lots of diferent creatures in the sprues ( warhammer quest had 1 rat,1 bat( great sculpt the bat), 1 snotling and 1 spider ) I think they could release something like a regiment box but with all wfb swarms...I would buy some for sure.

**MechaEmperor7000**

۞ Jack ۞ wrote:However, wouldnt be the best idea for thier proffit would it?
They are a small ish elite unit, no one will buy tons of them.
Being metal they charge more too.

Exactly. This is a clear case of money-grubbing on GW's part. However alot of people keep saying that because of the optional nature of the units, it's not possible to do them any other way other than have them as metal models, whereas there was an alternative staring them (and us) in the face. It was possible, feasable, and reasonable. But GW chose to fill it's wallets instead.

Not to mention the Clawed Fiend looks like Rafiki on steroids, at least to me.

**Jackal**

Navarro - You used to get a swarm of each per box for £5

Good times.
Boxwork on the front had a pic of all 4 complete swarms.
That was also released along the time time as the mono-pose black orks wasnt it? 0_o

Mecha - While its allways nice to be good to a customer, priority #1 is to make money.
If it means the chance they will go elsewhere for a product, so be it.

**MechaEmperor7000**

Making money also means you give the consumers something they would buy. As it was, without an official mode, people were already going to different places for alternatives. Given that the model's expensive even by it's contemporary's standards, that wont change. This just means they sunk resources into a venture that had zero impact on the consumer's purchases.

**Jackal**

Just done some hunting about, and found this:

That swarm is 6,00 €
By far cheaper than the razors, and looks 1,000x better.
Just looking through thier site now to see wht else they have.

Just a quick edit, but also found these for 70E

Those are on 60mm bases

Nice cyberwolves.

**MechaEmperor7000**

That doesnt look like the GW batswarm, where did you find it?

**Sidstyler**

So in your pursuit of profit you're more than happy to lose a sale to another company because of something that you could easily change, but refuse not to.

Makes perfect sense.

Seriously, other companies produce metal models and manage not to charge $15+ each for them. Why is GW incapable of doing that? Especially for non-character units that people will NEED to field more of? There's making money and then there's being a greedy douche just for the sake of it.

They can charge whatever they want obviously, but it's not good value for money. People are going to realize that and go elsewhere for their needs, and I swear GW will lose money on this investment because no one but collectors or painters will be buying the models (either that or the very rich who don't give a crap how much money they spend).

I'm not interested in beastmaster units so I'll be saving the $300 for more "reasonably priced" plastic models that I will make more use of. However if it cost half that to make a unit of them I probably would've indulged myself, since the models are really good-looking. I might even by a couple of khymera models just because, but it'll sadden me knowing I can never feasibly field a unit of them and they'll be for display only.

**MechaEmperor7000**

Most of the ire stems from the cost, which really baffles people, as it's something you'd expect GW to do back in 2nd edition, not now.

**NAVARRO**

۞ Jack ۞ wrote:Navarro - You used to get a swarm of each per box for £5
Good times.
Boxwork on the front had a pic of all 4 complete swarms.
That was also released along the time time as the mono-pose black orks wasnt it? 0_o

.

I got mine on the warhammer quest box, there were quite a few in there, very usefull.
It was so long ago I dont remember the year

Since you guys are hunting for bat swarms as substitutes, Reaper miniatures has one cool batswarm.

**Jackal**

That doesnt look like the GW batswarm, where did you find it?

Masq-mini's i think lol, trying to find the URL again.

I think that alone looks good enough to be a razorwing swarm.

Navarro - it was close to before my time

Only 21 as it is, but i used to go to the local hobby shop every now and then and buy a few things, that was the 1st thing i ever brought lol.

**NAVARRO**

۞ Jack ۞ wrote:

Navarro - it was close to before my time
Only 21 as it is, but i used to go to the local hobby shop every now and then and buy a few things, that was the 1st thing i ever brought lol.

How cool is that, hey?

The first mini you get will be forever carved in your memory ( mine was a Chaos Dwarf renegade from citadel the ones prior to the big hats).
But going back to that GW swarm even in those early days the plastic and cast was so nice, specially the bat tiny feet... Good memories indeed.

BTW found the reaper swarm:

**MechaEmperor7000**

Reaper swarms definately is the best. They look like they'll tear your face off with their teeth alone, to say nothing of what they'll do to ya with their wings.

**Jackal**

Alot of the old GW box sets were ace, even if mono-pose.

Things like skink units (when they could take bows!) were part of the £5 box sets.
And 12 skink for £5 is pretty damn nice lol.
£20 for 24 now, or £20 for double back then? mono-pose every time please.

The reaper swarm is pretty nice, just goes to show what detail can be put into a model.

I rather throw away £5 on a tube of GF9 GS (cheaper and more than GW's) and sculpt 5 or so swarms from it than buy GW's ones.

Speaking of which navarro, there may have been a hint in that last bit mate

**NAVARRO**

۞ Jack ۞ wrote:Alot of the old GW box sets were ace, even if mono-pose.

Things like skink units (when they could take bows!) were part of the £5 box sets.
And 12 skink for £5 is pretty damn nice lol.
£20 for 24 now, or £20 for double back then? mono-pose every time please.

The reaper swarm is pretty nice, just goes to show what detail can be put into a model.

I rather throw away £5 on a tube of GF9 GS (cheaper and more than GW's) and sculpt 5 or so swarms from it than buy GW's ones.

Speaking of which navarro, there may have been a hint in that last bit mate

One of the oldest plastics and still quite nice considering its age were the stealers, they aged really well... I wonder if in a few decades further ahead in time any of these new models will age so well.

I think the GW "crows" are quite usefull for generic stuff, cool swarms are not very abundant even on the competition catalogues.

As for sculpting them I think that its not a very simple thing to cast ( and maybe thats the reason we dont see many flyiers swarms) although personally I think a well designed pack of swarms would sell like hotcakes if well priced.

**Kroothawk**

۞ Jack ۞ wrote:
That swarm is 6,00 €.

Masquerade Miniatures:
http://www.masq-mini.com/aid-229-Batswarm-Kit.html
http://www.masq-mini.com/aid-230-Batswarm.html

Reaper bat swarm:
http://www.reapermini.com/OnlineStore/swarm/sku-down/03355

And for the upcoming Grey Knight Codex: This Jokaeiro stand-in:
http://www.reapermini.com/Miniatures/chronoscope/sku-down/50214

**Foo**

MagickalMemories wrote:
MikeMcSomething wrote:Does anyone really know how much GW spends on making a plastic kit vs a metal one (and how much of that money is actually spent effectively) anyway? We "know" from what they tell us that it's quite a bit more up front but these are also the guys that made plastic Chaos Spawn.

I don't have any links but, if yous earch online, you should find plenty. In all honesty, I can't tell you how many times I've read that topic rehashed over and over again. Probably a horrible idea for this thread of deviolve into that discussion.

On topic:

Here's my problem:

While the models (possibly excepting the RWings) are 100% on par with GW's pricing for comparable models, that does not excuse the fact that they're too expensive for what you receive. IMO, there's no good reason for this release to have happend as it did, and I cannot make myself understand it.

Clawed Fiends are metal. I can wrap my brain around this. The most you're going to field in a unit is 5 and, even if they sold them as a boxed set of 5, they're probably not going to sell enough boxes (at a max of 3 per army) to justify the more expensive plastic molds.
Okay. I get it. I don't LIKE it, but I get it.
See above, re: price, however.

RazorWings... Amazingly underwhelming. The sculpts only look half right. I see "wing," but I don't see "razor." That said, you get 4 birds on 3 stands per base at a crazy-expensive price for what you get.
These should have been handled (and I know I'm not the first to say this) like Rippers * Scarabs, along with a beastmaster boxed set. I'll get back to this point later, though.

Khymerae. Come on. Really? This is my biggest disappointment in the release. Moreso than the metal BMaster, even. Khy are fielded up to 5 at a time. You can have 25 of the dang things in a unit. These should have been done in 10 model plastic sprues. Sure, some people would have "had" to buy more than they wanted but really, GW already has a policy of doing what THEY want & not what the consumer wants. So, why not choose to do something that's going to make at least SOME people happy? I'd wager that your happy to dissatisfied ratio would be a LOT better with 10 plastic Khy's than it is with the way they did it now.

BMasters should have been in a box of 5 by themselves. I don't agree that there should have been bits in a Hellion box. I belive they should've taken the Hellion sprues, removed what was not BMaster appropriate & replaced it with BMaster appropriate bits. Again, some would've been forced to buy more than they wanted, but see "Khymerae' above for my rebuttal.

A box of VC Dire Wolves is about $25 USD:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440103a&prodId=prod1050050
Same for Chaos Warhounds:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440109a&prodId=prod1570038

I don't see wht Khy's couldn't have been done in a 10-strong box @$30... Heck, even at $40 or $50, it would be a far more acceptable product.

A box of DE Hellions is $25.
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat440235a&rootCatGameStyle=

I don't see why BMasters couldn't have been done as a unit of 5 for $30! Just like with Nids and necrons, the "little models," the RWings, could've been bits on the sprue. A box of 5 BMasters for $30 to even $40 also comes with 3 bases of RWings. Bamf. Done.

Honestly, at the prices GW is charging, I'm still going to have 1 or 2 units of 5 Beastmasters. I'm going to eventually have 50 Khymerae, 2 CFiends and probably 10 RWings. Only the Beastmasters will be GW models, though, and they'll be converted from hellions. Everything else will be supplied by Reaper, Privateer Press, etc.

Eric

I agree with this post.

In fact, I agree so much, that if I do decide to include a Beastmaster squad, I'm going to be sure not to buy any of the Khys or birds from G-W and will substitutes from other companies.

**Grot 6**

Those swarm boxes came at the end of an era, with the reminents of the Warhammer Quest beasties. same as when they released the "Heros" and "Wizards" sets that had the full range of the same sculpt hero guys in them. They had the Idea because they were clearing warehouses of old product, so what better way to do it then sell them as bonus package types. They acted like they were giving you a deal, but in reality, they were just getting rid of excess.

As to the sculpts-
Those Beasts can be revetted to include pretty much any other one you can find, aside from those choices... I've been seening more then enough stand ins to let me have as many if more options for even a quarter of the price. As for the beastmaster itself, if you wanted, if you so chose, you could use bits from the other boxed sets of the range, or even some of the old beastmasters from the fantasy range to make a perfectly viable stand-in.

Sorry GW, but you pulled a boneheaded play with these models. P!@# poor planning, P!@# poor execution. While every other model we've been seeing is going the way of plastic, we see them pulling this out of the Archives, as if they already had the model, but were waiting for a chance to release it.(which, by the way that it looks is most likely the case.)

There is no reason int he world, except for shortsightedness that these didn't come in plastic, and all together as a package deal in the same box.

All around Bad models and a trainwreck of a deal... ( You need a thumbs down Orkmoticon for this one.)

**Snord**

Foo wrote:
I agree with this post.

That doesn't mean you had to quote the whole thing!

The same applies to everyone who quoted multiple photos in order to post a one line comment.

It looks to me as though GW had done the bare minimum necessary to enable people to field these units. I suspect that they intend to replace these metal models with plastic ones in due course, but didn't feel confident that they could get enough sales to do them in plastic straight off. That's not really a justification for these high prices though - I guess the only consolation is that the basic DE plastic sets aren't too pricey, compared to some other plastics.

**Kroothawk**

A good and cheaper stand-in for the Khymeras are the OOP Rackham Confrontation Dirz Tigers (plastic box of three or old metals):

Plastic:

Metal:

**MagickalMemories**

Kroothawk wrote:A good and cheaper stand-in for the Khymeras are the OOP Rackham Confrontation Dirz Tigers (plastic box of three or old metals)

Can you please link somewhere that these can be purchased for cheaper than the Khy's? I like them very much, but can't find them for sale at any of the retail sites I've visited online.
I'm not talking about bidding on them. I like a set price, where I can just by them at my liesure. Don't want a bidding war.

FWIW, that isn't just for KH. ANYONE who could do that, I'd be highly appreciative.

Eric

**NAVARRO**

MagickalMemories wrote:
Kroothawk wrote:A good and cheaper stand-in for the Khymeras are the OOP Rackham Confrontation Dirz Tigers (plastic box of three or old metals)

Can you please link somewhere that these can be purchased for cheaper than the Khy's? I like them very much, but can't find them for sale at any of the retail sites I've visited online.
I'm not talking about bidding on them. I like a set price, where I can just by them at my liesure. Don't want a bidding war.

FWIW, that isn't just for KH. ANYONE who could do that, I'd be highly appreciative.

Eric

Dirz tigers metals versions are more detailed but you can only get those on ebay or private trading with someone... On ludik bazar you can still just buy some spare parts of those metal tigers...

As for prepainted tigers go here:
http://www.ludikbazar.com/product_info.php?products_id=52767

Good luck.

**George Spiggott**

Those plastic tigers may have to go onto my list of Confrontation models to puck up cheap.

**btemple0**

I take it that you only get the 3 birds for a single blister, if that is the case then I guess I could just cough up enough for one and use it for D&D.....

**Kroothawk**

4 to be exact (and you can fill 4 bases if you want it cheap). Didn't understand the last part of your post though.

**ChrisCP**

Kroothawk wrote:A good and cheaper stand-in for the Khymeras are the OOP Rackham Confrontation Dirz Tigers (plastic box of three or old metals):

Plastic:

Metal:

Wow when were these made? Have a funny feeling that GW has just infringed on someones IP. And if they'd done that to GW it would be boot-fist-cease-and-desist time.

**Laughing Man**

IP LAWS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY. GOOD NIGHT.