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I was thinking about the clawed fiend... It's the same price as an obliterator! That's pretty reasonable, the more I think about it (Although I see no reason why GW doesn't just sell three for 50$ or something, since everyone uses groups of three).... The kymaeras are pretty reasonable too. Metal terminator/ commissar price.

The reason the creatures are metal, is simply because despite statements that in the future they will do this... they haven't really started making plastic kits for models that have a single configuration for 40k. Part of the problem is that a hypothetical plastic beastmaster kit would need to be pretty beefy and would likely end up as a plastic kit that comes off overpriced and verging on inadequate. Based on standard sprue sizes and the way GW tries to arrange boxsets into field-able units it would probably have been 3 beastmaster, a clawed fiend, 3-4 khymeras, and some number of flocks and cost $35. They were probably thinking, any player who wants these would want the ability to build their squad which ever way they want.

Jake
If you think they are value for money cool sculpts that's grand. We are entitled to disagree. However negative, pointless and ineffective they vent frustrations and disappointments.
People complain it's what they do
It's the internest
It's Dakka

Complaining about complaining is even more purile and pointless than the original expression of grievance.

If you don't like the smell of other peoples' farts, don't stick your head under their duvets.

Not seen those pics, sorry.
so still have no idea how big a big thing is.
Guess it's something I'll never know.

Samus_aran115 wrote:I was thinking about the clawed fiend... It's the same price as an obliterator! That's pretty reasonable, the more I think about it (Although I see no reason why GW doesn't just sell three for 50$ or something, since everyone uses groups of three).... The kymaeras are pretty reasonable too. Metal terminator/ commissar price.

You're my hero for saying this!

I'm glad to see there are at least a few others here that are as excited about this release as I am.

I already said they were great minis, and I'd love to see someone field a Beastmaster-heavy army of them -- but yeah, they are silly money for something that is supposed to be fielded in quantity. People already complain about the price of an obliterator, but you can only fit 3 in a force org slot (£40 or so), and they're fairly expensive points-wise; you can potentially have, what, 25 Razorwing bases in one force org slot? For nearly £400? Funny stuff.

I am collecting DE as well as everything else, because I love the minis and the army is huge fun to play. But I am unlikely to buy any of this latest wave of metal minis. I will find some other way to make Razorwings, maybe using GW minis, maybe not. I don't think I'm alone in planning to do that, and I can't see that it's more economically viable for GW to sell the occasional single base of Razorwings to completists for £8 when they could be selling a five-pack of plastic ones to me and everyone else at maybe £15 a pack (which I'd readily pay -- at least, £15 less online discounter discount). If their corporate behemothicity is so behemothical that that's not possible, they should subcontract the job to the Perrys, and still make a profit.

Ian Sturrock wrote:I already said they were great minis, and I'd love to see someone field a Beastmaster-heavy army of them -- but yeah, they are silly money for something that is supposed to be fielded in quantity. People already complain about the price of an obliterator, but you can only fit 3 in a force org slot (£40 or so), and they're fairly expensive points-wise; you can potentially have, what, 25 Razorwing bases in one force org slot? For nearly £400? Funny stuff.

I am collecting DE as well as everything else, because I love the minis and the army is huge fun to play. But I am unlikely to buy any of this latest wave of metal minis. I will find some other way to make Razorwings, maybe using GW minis, maybe not. I don't think I'm alone in planning to do that, and I can't see that it's more economically viable for GW to sell the occasional single base of Razorwings to completists for £8 when they could be selling a five-pack of plastic ones to me and everyone else at maybe £15 a pack (which I'd readily pay -- at least, £15 less online discounter discount). If their corporate behemothicity is so behemothical that that's not possible, they should subcontract the job to the Perrys, and still make a profit.

You can only have 10 razorwing flocks in a unit, its the 25 model Kymera squads that will cost more than a months rent

Sorry, didn't have the codex to hand (and have only just started collecting DE after borrowing some of a friend's minis to do a test game). But yeah -- either way -- silly money for one force org slot that doesn't cost many points. Worse than Ogryn (which are widely considered to be too expensive...) or Oblits (likewise) or Hive Guard (likewise).

In response to a few points raised by various people over the past few pages...

You definitely can buy a 1000 point Dark Eldar army for less than a full size Beastmasters and Khymera unit. I've done it. It all depends on what units you choose and what you a equip them with. A very small amount of conversion work might be necessary (like making your own Archon or a special character).

Yes, the prices of these models are the same as those for models of similar size. Yes, those other models are overpriced too. And, personally, I was complaining due to the point to pounds ratio. Was I expecting them to cost less than other models of similar size? Yes, because the rest of the Dark Eldar minis are quite reasonably priced compared to other GW lines. Was I hoping for them to be smaller than they are? Again, yes, because there's nothing in their rules or descriptions to indicate that they should be almost monstrous creature sized. Since i guessed they'd be metal it never even occurred to me that they'd be made as prohibitively expensive large metal models.

Why the heck IS GW still making metal? I realise the upfront investment for plastic is higher than that for metal, so there's only so many plastic sets they can produce at one time. But seriously, I'd rather wait two years for a second wave of Dark Eldar plastics and get everything in plastic, than get metals now and wait ten years for the plastics. People don't want an endless repeat of poses. People don't want miniatures that have to be pinned and have paint chip off them. People don't want to have to pick up a hacksaw every time they do a conversion. People don't want to live in a cardboard box and live off rats to afford miniatures (ok, that last one is a slight exaggeration). If GW want their claims of being the rolls royce of minis to be taken seriously, they need to modernise.

On that theme, since it does make sense to sell beasts individually or in small numbers, but metal is too expensive, why exactly can't they sell plastic minis in blister packs? Why can't they sell small individual sprues, one mini on each? That's not rhetorical, honestly. I assume there must be a reason, so does anyone know what it is?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Khymera are growing on me by the way. Painted differently, they wouldn't have to look like a cliche'd skinless dog. The Fiend and Razorwings aren't winning me over though. Even though both are competently sculpted, the Fiend's aesthetic is unappealing (kinda looks cute and unthreatening, and the pose is unconvincing) and the Razorwings are woefully unimaginative. I guess I might be willing to buy one of each if they were cooler.

Note: multiple edits for typos

I don't get why the Khymerae couldn't come in a box of five like the Incubi and Mandrakes, even at a greater cost. 2 Khymerae are roughly the cost of 5 Incubi or Mandrakes, which come with three poses in a box.

If anything, I would think the Incubi cost more to design and the same to make, no?

I don't understand the disparity.

Samus666 wrote:In response to a few points raised by various people over the past few pages...

You definitely can buy a 1000 point Dark Eldar army for less than a full size Beastmasters and Khymera unit. I've done it. It all depends on what units you choose and what you a equip them with. A very small amount of conversion work might be necessary (like making your own Archon or a special character).

Yes, the prices of these models are the same as those for models of similar size. Yes, those other models are overpriced too. And, personally, I was complaining due to the point to pounds ratio. Was I expecting them to cost less than other models of similar size? Yes, because the rest of the Dark Eldar minis are quite reasonably priced compared to other GW lines. Was I hoping for them to be smaller than they are? Again, yes, because there's nothing in their rules or descriptions to indicate that they should be almost monstrous creature sized. Since i guessed they'd be metal it never even occurred to me that they'd be made as prohibitively expensive large metal models.

Why the heck IS GW still making metal? I realise the upfront investment for plastic is higher than that for metal, so there's only so many plastic sets they can produce at one time. But seriously, I'd rather wait two years for a second wave of Dark Eldar plastics and get everything in plastic, than get metals now and wait ten years for the plastics. People don't want an endless repeat of poses. People don't want miniatures that have to be pinned and have paint chip off them. People don't want to have to pick up a hacksaw every time they do a conversion. People don't want to live in a cardboard box and live off rats to afford miniatures (ok, that last one is a slight exaggeration). If GW want their claims of being the rolls royce of minis to be taken seriously, they need to modernise.

On that theme, since it does make sense to sell beasts individually or in small numbers, but metal is too expensive, why exactly can't they sell plastic minis in blister packs? Why can't they sell small individual sprues, one mini on each? That's not rhetorical, honestly. I assume there must be a reason, so does anyone know what it is?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Khymera are growing on me by the way. Painted differently, they wouldn't have to look like a cliche'd skinless dog. The Fiend and Razorwings aren't winning me over though. Even though both are competently sculpted, the Fiend's aesthetic is unappealing (kinda looks cute and unthreatening, and the pose is unconvincing) and the Razorwings are woefully unimaginative. I guess I might be willing to buy one of each if they were cooler.

Note: multiple edits for typos

Yes. Just... yes. And Amen.

ChrisCP wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:
What is that muscle membrane thing under it's left arm there for?

I think that's the inner thigh of its other leg

(quote being awkward)

Happygrunt wrote:The whats new article was stupid, just FYI.

Care to give any reasons as to why it was stupid?

jake wrote:I missed that you were in Australia.

My point though is that the Khymera and Clawed Fiend are fairly priced models (for GW models). Obviously we can use other stuff to fill their spots if we want to, but if we want the actual models there's not much point in complaining about their cost, which is very comparable to similar sized metal models.

Or to put it another way, I'm mystified by the outrage over the cost of the models. Not the cost of assembling a unit. I get that. But the cost of the models themselves. So many people in this thread and the sister thread on Warseer are claiming that GW are way overcharging for the Clawed Fiend and the Khymera. They're not. The cost of these models is, as I pointed out before, comparable to other metal models of similar size. Yes, using the models to assemble a unit, especially a large one, is stupidly expensive. But the Khymera and Clawed Fiend models themselves are not overpriced rip offs as many people are claiming.

Wraithguard and Ogryns are fairly priced for their stature of models (Wraithguards being cheaper than most 25mm metal characters, while having potentially more metal in them, while Ogryns are about the same price as Kroxigors and the Clawed Fiend). Problem is, these units you have to run in moderate to high numbers, where the price starts to dramatically add up. Wraithguards can be forgiven as they're a holdover from 2nd or 3rd edition. Ogryns to some degree too. The Clawed fiend as well, but the Khymera and Razorwings, while still moderately priced compared to their equivallents, are not feasable on the consumer's end whatsoever. Beastmasters are apparently not that useful in the first place, making their models costing nearly an arm and a leg didnt help matters.

Does anyone really know how much GW spends on making a plastic kit vs a metal one (and how much of that money is actually spent effectively) anyway? We "know" from what they tell us that it's quite a bit more up front but these are also the guys that made plastic Chaos Spawn.

stuff already said ...

MikeMcSomething wrote:Does anyone really know how much GW spends on making a plastic kit vs a metal one (and how much of that money is actually spent effectively) anyway? We "know" from what they tell us that it's quite a bit more up front but these are also the guys that made plastic Chaos Spawn.

I don't have any links but, if yous earch online, you should find plenty. In all honesty, I can't tell you how many times I've read that topic rehashed over and over again. Probably a horrible idea for this thread of deviolve into that discussion.


On topic:

Here's my problem:

While the models (possibly excepting the RWings) are 100% on par with GW's pricing for comparable models, that does not excuse the fact that they're too expensive for what you receive. IMO, there's no good reason for this release to have happend as it did, and I cannot make myself understand it.

Clawed Fiends are metal. I can wrap my brain around this. The most you're going to field in a unit is 5 and, even if they sold them as a boxed set of 5, they're probably not going to sell enough boxes (at a max of 3 per army) to justify the more expensive plastic molds.
Okay. I get it. I don't LIKE it, but I get it.
See above, re: price, however.

RazorWings... Amazingly underwhelming. The sculpts only look half right. I see "wing," but I don't see "razor." That said, you get 4 birds on 3 stands per base at a crazy-expensive price for what you get.
These should have been handled (and I know I'm not the first to say this) like Rippers * Scarabs, along with a beastmaster boxed set. I'll get back to this point later, though.

Khymerae. Come on. Really? This is my biggest disappointment in the release. Moreso than the metal BMaster, even. Khy are fielded up to 5 at a time. You can have 25 of the dang things in a unit. These should have been done in 10 model plastic sprues. Sure, some people would have "had" to buy more than they wanted but really, GW already has a policy of doing what THEY want & not what the consumer wants. So, why not choose to do something that's going to make at least SOME people happy? I'd wager that your happy to dissatisfied ratio would be a LOT better with 10 plastic Khy's than it is with the way they did it now.

BMasters should have been in a box of 5 by themselves. I don't agree that there should have been bits in a Hellion box. I belive they should've taken the Hellion sprues, removed what was not BMaster appropriate & replaced it with BMaster appropriate bits. Again, some would've been forced to buy more than they wanted, but see "Khymerae' above for my rebuttal.

A box of VC Dire Wolves is about $25 USD:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440103a&prodId=prod1050050
Same for Chaos Warhounds:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440109a&prodId=prod1570038

I don't see wht Khy's couldn't have been done in a 10-strong box @$30... Heck, even at $40 or $50, it would be a far more acceptable product.

A box of DE Hellions is $25.
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat440235a&rootCatGameStyle=

I don't see why BMasters couldn't have been done as a unit of 5 for $30! Just like with Nids and necrons, the "little models," the RWings, could've been bits on the sprue. A box of 5 BMasters for $30 to even $40 also comes with 3 bases of RWings. Bamf. Done.

Honestly, at the prices GW is charging, I'm still going to have 1 or 2 units of 5 Beastmasters. I'm going to eventually have 50 Khymerae, 2 CFiends and probably 10 RWings. Only the Beastmasters will be GW models, though, and they'll be converted from hellions. Everything else will be supplied by Reaper, Privateer Press, etc.

Eric

MagickalMemories wrote:

MikeMcSomething wrote:Does anyone really know how much GW spends on making a plastic kit vs a metal one (and how much of that money is actually spent effectively) anyway? We "know" from what they tell us that it's quite a bit more up front but these are also the guys that made plastic Chaos Spawn.

I don't have any links but, if yous earch online, you should find plenty. In all honesty, I can't tell you how many times I've read that topic rehashed over and over again. Probably a horrible idea for this thread of deviolve into that discussion.


On topic:

Here's my problem:

While the models (possibly excepting the RWings) are 100% on par with GW's pricing for comparable models, that does not excuse the fact that they're too expensive for what you receive. IMO, there's no good reason for this release to have happend as it did, and I cannot make myself understand it.

Clawed Fiends are metal. I can wrap my brain around this. The most you're going to field in a unit is 5 and, even if they sold them as a boxed set of 5, they're probably not going to sell enough boxes (at a max of 3 per army) to justify the more expensive plastic molds.
Okay. I get it. I don't LIKE it, but I get it.
See above, re: price, however.

RazorWings... Amazingly underwhelming. The sculpts only look half right. I see "wing," but I don't see "razor." That said, you get 4 birds on 3 stands per base at a crazy-expensive price for what you get.
These should have been handled (and I know I'm not the first to say this) like Rippers * Scarabs, along with a beastmaster boxed set. I'll get back to this point later, though.

Khymerae. Come on. Really? This is my biggest disappointment in the release. Moreso than the metal BMaster, even. Khy are fielded up to 5 at a time. You can have 25 of the dang things in a unit. These should have been done in 10 model plastic sprues. Sure, some people would have "had" to buy more than they wanted but really, GW already has a policy of doing what THEY want & not what the consumer wants. So, why not choose to do something that's going to make at least SOME people happy? I'd wager that your happy to dissatisfied ratio would be a LOT better with 10 plastic Khy's than it is with the way they did it now.

BMasters should have been in a box of 5 by themselves. I don't agree that there should have been bits in a Hellion box. I belive they should've taken the Hellion sprues, removed what was not BMaster appropriate & replaced it with BMaster appropriate bits. Again, some would've been forced to buy more than they wanted, but see "Khymerae' above for my rebuttal.

A box of VC Dire Wolves is about $25 USD:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440103a&prodId=prod1050050
Same for Chaos Warhounds:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440109a&prodId=prod1570038

I don't see wht Khy's couldn't have been done in a 10-strong box @$30... Heck, even at $40 or $50, it would be a far more acceptable product.

A box of DE Hellions is $25.
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat440235a&rootCatGameStyle=

I don't see why BMasters couldn't have been done as a unit of 5 for $30! Just like with Nids and necrons, the "little models," the RWings, could've been bits on the sprue. A box of 5 BMasters for $30 to even $40 also comes with 3 bases of RWings. Bamf. Done.

Honestly, at the prices GW is charging, I'm still going to have 1 or 2 units of 5 Beastmasters. I'm going to eventually have 50 Khymerae, 2 CFiends and probably 10 RWings. Only the Beastmasters will be GW models, though, and they'll be converted from hellions. Everything else will be supplied by Reaper, Privateer Press, etc.

Eric

As I mentioned above, they didnt even need to make the Beastmaster as a separate set. The Hellion Box could have sufficed if they gave alternate parts to make the Beastmasters, with the RWs on the sprues. It would have sold like hotcakes. The Khyms, even if it was 30 bucks for 5, would still be a drastic improvement over this (look at the Chaos Knights from WHFB, it's a comparative price).

Ho hum... not an inspiring lot. The clawed fiend looks interesting but the prices are wacky. Nearly £10 apiece for this lot, I mean they are just a couple of birds or a muscled dog thing with extra arms.

Apologies for not searching the thread but why are they such odd prices, like £8.70 or £13.80? Have they not adjusted for VAT?

It's cuz they're all metal, so comparatively they're priced the same way as any other metal models (The Fiend is about on par with the likes of Ogryns, Kroxigors, and the metal Rat Ogres, while the Khyms are the same as metal characters. The Razorwings are about the same price as metal Swarms).

yeah,

MagickalMemories wrote:... I don't agree that there should have been bits in a Hellion box. I belive they should've taken the Hellion sprues, removed what was not BMaster appropriate & replaced it with BMaster appropriate bits...

I don't think this is what most people are saying.
But I think most people would have been happier with a metal beast master upgrade bits pack for a hellion kit than with a mono metal mini.
This is the GW Iron warriors Kit and it sells for £10

If they had made a £10 kit like this, with 5 new beast master bodies and heads plus 3/4 extra arms with whips and prods... people would have been over the moon with a 5x beast master £25 box set.
Hell this makes more sense because, if only one beast master per unit can have a agoniser as it is you have to convert each of the official beast master mini's after the first to make a legal squad.

While I'm thinking about upgrade kits...I'll be having a look at what the spawn kit could do to Chaos Warhounds / Dire Wolves with regards to making Khymerae.

MagickalMemories wrote:... the RWings, could've been bits on the sprue...

Based on the fact we had no idea what a razor wings looked like, they could have been smaller sharper minis (snotling sized) with 10 to 15 models per blister at £10 and everyone would have been happier.

Panic...

Almost all of the existing Swarm Units are plastic, which come on sprues of almost all units in the army. The only exception besides the RW is the Nurgling, mainly because back then all daemon models were metal and Papa Nurgle was never thrown a bone by the plastic gods.

In either case, Plastic beastmasters would have made so much more sense, as from the comments here, it doesnt seem anyone would use anything less than 3.

yeah,

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Almost all of the existing Swarm Units are plastic, which come on sprues of almost all units in the army...

I'm not so sure this is true.

Your correct for necrons... but and I can't think of another 40k unit swarm unit that this aplies to.

Rippers are metal.
Except for the single one you get on the termagant sprue (1 base of 4 identical rippers per box)... but this means buying termagants to get plastic rippers...

Does your statement even carry any weight in WHFB ? skaven swarms and snotlings are metal blisters... am I missing something?

Panic...

You get Rippers in Tyranid Warrior boxes, too. I have a feeling you get them in Stealer boxes (never bought a Stealer box though as I have enough minis from 2 editions of Space Hulk).

Ian Sturrock wrote:You get Rippers in Tyranid Warrior boxes, too. I have a feeling you get them in Stealer boxes (never bought a Stealer box though as I have enough minis from 2 editions of Space Hulk).

This is correct.

Comes in Stealer boxes, and they are currently the only source of Spinefist-equipped Rippers. Also, I was speaking exclusively for 40k, although various Skaven sprues also include the odd giant rat, which could be used to make swarms.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Comes in Stealer boxes, and they are currently the only source of Spinefist-equipped Rippers. Also, I was speaking exclusively for 40k, although various Skaven sprues also include the odd giant rat, which could be used to make swarms.

Yeah, and look at how well the Rat Ogres/Giant Rat boxes were received

Actually, plastic swarms are the minority here.

Plastic -
Rippers (every troop choice box has them)
Scarabs (crons)
Used to get snotlings with night gobbo's, but not anymore)


Metal -
Tomb swarms
Jungle swarms
Rat swarms
Nurgling swarms
Snotling swarms

Im sure ive missed some, but you get the idea.

@ Kanluwen: Wasn't just talking about the Rat Ogre/Giant Rat box my quick-to-question friend =P http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440086a&prodId=prod1040494

As for the list of metal swarms. For what system and when were they made?

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:@ Kanluwen: Wasn't just talking about the Rat Ogre/Giant Rat box my quick-to-question friend =P http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440086a&prodId=prod1040494

As for the list of metal swarms. For what system and when were they made?

I know.

But it was a point that's pretty good for this specific thread.
To get X amount of Giant Rats, you ended up with Y Rat Ogres and Packmasters. There comes a point where you have too many of each!

However: Tomb Swarms+Jungle Swarms were released with their army books. Nurgling Swarms the same, Snotling and Rat Swarms too I think.

Point I was trying to get across was that they were fully capable of doing swarms on sprues, since they did two in the same game system before. In addition, the Razorwings seem to only have two variations in total (and both of which appear to be a one piece mold), meaning it wouldnt even had been that hard to make them on sprues.

And with the exception of the Tomb Swarms, none of the other swarms were released with their current army book. I know, I've seen those in previous editions.