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Or to put it another way, I'm mystified by the outrage over the cost of the models. Not the cost of assembling a unit. I get that. But the cost of the models themselves. So many people in this thread and the sister thread on Warseer are claiming that GW are way overcharging for the Clawed Fiend and the Khymera. They're not. The cost of these models is, as I pointed out before, comparable to other metal models of similar size. Yes, using the models to assemble a unit, especially a large one, is stupidly expensive. But the Khymera and Clawed Fiend models themselves are not overpriced rip offs as many people are claiming.

Jake, I think you have a valid point. However, since these models are unlikely to be purchased much in small quantities for the sheer joy of collecting or painting, they're not really those kind of models, the cost of building a unit has seemingly overwhelmed people's reason circuits and they are now lashing out in ways both reasonable and not. It's no surprise here is it? It doesn't take much to set some people off as you may have noticed.

As for me I have to admit, if I was updating my Dark Eldar army at the moment, this would be the last unit I'd think about because of the total cost of the unit and the time and effort it takes to assemble large units of metal models. After more than 20 years as a GW customer, I still buy a surprising number of models, but I tend to gravitate toward plastic these days. It's more time and cost effective, holds paint better and is easier to transport.

If the Feind is a large model the point is valid. What is it, about £14? still on the steep side but comparable to some. Not sure the same can't be said for the kittycats. Nearly 9 quid a pop? They look fairly standard size, nothing special. Who knows.

So many people have said they have been put off by the cost. I still can't help wondering if GW had put these out cheaper and in plastic they may have sold much better.
They could have been done in such a manner that, as mentioned on this thread, conversions were possible for WHFB etc, thus widening the scope for sales.

jake wrote:Or to put it another way, I'm mystified by the outrage over the cost of the models. Not the cost of assembling a unit. I get that. But the cost of the models themselves. So many people in this thread and the sister thread on Warseer are claiming that GW are way overcharging for the Clawed Fiend and the Khymera. They're not. The cost of these models is, as I pointed out before, comparable to other metal models of similar size. Yes, using the models to assemble a unit, especially a large one, is stupidly expensive. But the Khymera and Clawed Fiend models themselves are not overpriced rip offs as many people are claiming.

IMO, Jake -and I'm certain I'm not alone in this- I think the problem with your logic is that you're simply comparing them to similarly priced/sized GW models. That's all well and good, but you should take into consideration that we *also* think those models are overpriced. So, really, instead of stating that they're not bad because they cost the same as GW's XYZ model is an invalid point. Instead, what you're really saying is that they're no more expensive than that XYZ model... which we also think is overpriced.
KWIM?

Eric

MagickalMemories wrote:

jake wrote:Or to put it another way, I'm mystified by the outrage over the cost of the models. Not the cost of assembling a unit. I get that. But the cost of the models themselves. So many people in this thread and the sister thread on Warseer are claiming that GW are way overcharging for the Clawed Fiend and the Khymera. They're not. The cost of these models is, as I pointed out before, comparable to other metal models of similar size. Yes, using the models to assemble a unit, especially a large one, is stupidly expensive. But the Khymera and Clawed Fiend models themselves are not overpriced rip offs as many people are claiming.

IMO, Jake -and I'm certain I'm not alone in this- I think the problem with your logic is that you're simply comparing them to similarly priced/sized GW models. That's all well and good, but you should take into consideration that we *also* think those models are overpriced. So, really, instead of stating that they're not bad because they cost the same as GW's XYZ model is an invalid point. Instead, what you're really saying is that they're no more expensive than that XYZ model... which we also think is overpriced.
KWIM?

Eric

Overpriced? Sure. as I said, they're of comparable price to similarly sized models already available. For a GW product that might seem reasonable. For anything else it's stupidly expensive. What were you expecting though? Surely not that the Beast Master units would be in plastic. That was never even rumored. Surely not that as metal models they would somehow cost less than other comparable metal models?

Maybe you (and by you I mean... well, you know) were hoping that the models would be small? Scabbard or Ripper sized? Maybe the size of Gaunts? 3 or 4 for $20? That would have been affordable, but I'd personally rather have large, detailed cool looking models. The old warp beasts weren't too expensive, but they were pretty small and unimpressive.

Seriously, when you were assembling your ideal Beast Master unit in your mind, how much did you think it would cost? It was always going to be an expensive unit. gak, even in plastic it would have been expensive. So why is everyone so surprised?

The problem with your argument is you are using the wrong reaction

We knew that GW would be a bunch of stiffs with a price to match and they didn't disappoint.
No surprise, just the inevitable let down
You say they are large. Just how long is a piece of string?
The whole thing is subjective, you think they are cool, and sound remarkably like how they are going to be described in WD btw, I think they are anything but cool sculpts on the whole.

They ought not have been so expensive even in plastic.

Try disappointment, ennui, GW apologist fatigue, or do I look like I was born yesterday? pull the other one it has bells on as the reaction rather than surprised.

Jake these things are playing footsie with (and in the case of the Khymera, exceeding) the 1$ per point mark. That's not "Duh, it's GW so you should feel obligated to pay alot" expensive, that's "Holy Crap I'm going to convert this or just not field the unit at all" expensive. There are entire armies that suffer from this, the end result is never a net positive for anyone.

And to top it off these aren't really excellent models - the Beastmasters should have just had an an upgrade sprue in the Hellion box, the Clawed Fiend is your standard awkwardly-posed big thing, the Khyms are GW ugly/wierd chaos skin is showing/creepy dog/dire wolf thing # 12059 (seriously you could make an army of GW's weird-ass canines) and the Razorwings are...birds. Birds.

They are just birds.



Pictured above: Fearsome Dark Eldar Razorwing. He rends on a 6, this makes him good against targets with low armor saves, like Space Marines.

Oh my bad it's just a random bird I found on Google. It's really easy to get the two confused.

Kanluwen wrote:It's either "quit trying to put words into my mouth" or "quit trying to consistently pin underlying motives that are not actually present in my statement".

Only one of those is factually correct. If you sacrifice truth in favor of producing a snappier comeback, you've already lost.

As for the rest of your post, it's drivel. Good night.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:The problem with your argument is you are using the wrong reaction

We knew that GW would be a bunch of stiffs with a price to match and they didn't disappoint.
No surprise, just the inevitable let down
You say they are large. Just how long is a piece of string?
The whole thing is subjective, you think they are cool, and sound remarkably like how they are going to be described in WD btw, I think they are anything but cool sculpts on the whole.

They ought not have been so expensive even in plastic.

Try disappointment, ennui, GW apologist fatigue, or do I look like I was born yesterday? pull the other one it has bells on as the reaction rather than surprised.

Okay, so not surprised but complaining anyway? That's just childish.

How long is a piece of string? Seriously man, we have photos. We know exactly how large they are in comparison to other miniatures in the line.

This is sounding more and more like complaining for the sake of complaining. Like the models or not, they are fairly priced by GW standards (and here I'm talking only about the Fiend and Khymera). We knew the models were going to be in metal. We knew how large the units could be. as you said yourself, this wasn't a surprise. So all the complaining about the models really is just more complaining. That's how it seems to me.

Those of you who have decided to use proxies... good idea. Smart move! Those of you who have decided that the unit is too expensive to field... good job on saving some money! Those of you who like the models and decided they will be worth purchasing... I hope you'll enjoy them!

Those of you complaining that GW is once again abusing your wallets, your patromage and ruining your gaming experience by offering you miniatures at expected prices... seriously, wtf?

lol
No he isn't
Isn't he an American Blue Robin?
what a stunner
Most sensible gorgeous post on Dakka well done Mike.

jake wrote:Maybe you (and by you I mean... well, you know) were hoping that the models would be small?

Actually, yes. The statline on the Khymera is pretty close to that of a Kroothound (WS4/S4/T3), so it's not unreasonable to assume they'd be about the same size. And remember this is already a model considered prohibitively expensive for its points cost. Double the points cost and double the price of the miniature, and you're back where you started.

GW is charging commander prices for a miniature that comes in squads of up to 25, yet only has two sculpts. That's just ridiculous.

So now we can't say anything against GW if we don't like their wares or marketing policy because it is childish?

That is a well reasoned and articulate reposte.

Mike's Crystal Ball Prediction of 2011: The newfound popularity of the plastic Instamold stuff everyone is talking about in the other thread combined with a relatively small, simple metal model that is fabulously expensive and taken in large numbers leads to more resin/greenstuff Razorwing flocks than metal ones being fielded on tabletops in the next 6 months.


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Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:lol
No he isn't
Isn't he an American Blue Robin?
what a stunner
Most sensible gorgeous post on Dakka well done Mike.

It's pretty cute, and for the cost of a full Beastmaster/Razorwing unit I could just buy a bunch of them from a pet store and set them loose in the face of my opponent for every match I play for the next 12 months and probably break even.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:So now we can't say anything against GW if we don't like their wares or marketing policy because it is childish?

That is a well reasoned and articulate reposte.

Complaining for the sake of complaining is childish.

While the dollar cost to points ratio of the unit is certainly worth complaining about (and by complaining about it we discuss and explore the problem) the cost of GW miniatures has been well covered on this and other forums over and over again. Complaining that the Clawed Fiend and the Khymere as models are not worth their cost (which is what I'm arguing about here, and is what many people in this thread and the sister thread over at Warseer have said) is ridiculous. GW has set their cost standard for models of this size. The prices shouldn't have come as a surprise to anyone. Yes they are expensive, but not outside of what is to be expected for GW models. GW models are expensive, but these three models (the 2 Khymera and the Fiend) are well within expected cost for models of their size.

Complaining that as a model the Khymera and Fiend are too expensive is both fruitless and pointless. The cost of GW models has already been discussed here and other places multiple times. I think we've come to a general agreement that they are damn expensive, that we'd rather they were cheaper, and that because of this sometimes we won't buy them. Complaining in this thread that the models themselves are too expensive accomplishes nothing. It does not further the discussion. it does not shed new light on the discussion. It does not allow us to explore the problem in new ways. It is simply complaining for the sake of complaining. Which is childish.

It's trying to put too fine of a point on things when you say people can discuss it's cost vs. it's points but not it's cost vs...the cost of other things someone could buy by default. These things aren't being judged by how much pewter and square inches they take up on a tabletop, they're generally being judged by how much more expensive they make a Dark Eldar army (or collection) to field them. If the same exact model was 50 dollars, cost 1400 points, and had stats commensurate with the points value, people would be falling over each other to pay for it (though to be fair it's not really that good looking, so people would still probably convert it, but you get the point). It currently costs too much to add too little so people are justifiably concerned.

GW's (atrocious) production schedule means for most gamers they usually only have one good chance to make that unit out of the codex everything it's customers have dreamed of (and would be happy to pay for) and when they blow it, it makes people understandably upset.

jake wrote:I missed that you were in Australia.

My point though is that the Khymera and Clawed Fiend are fairly priced models (for GW models). Obviously we can use other stuff to fill their spots if we want to, but if we want the actual models there's not much point in complaining about their cost, which is very comparable to similar sized metal models.

Or to put it another way, I'm mystified by the outrage over the cost of the models. Not the cost of assembling a unit. I get that. But the cost of the models themselves. So many people in this thread and the sister thread on Warseer are claiming that GW are way overcharging for the Clawed Fiend and the Khymera. They're not. The cost of these models is, as I pointed out before, comparable to other metal models of similar size. Yes, using the models to assemble a unit, especially a large one, is stupidly expensive. But the Khymera and Clawed Fiend models themselves are not overpriced rip offs as many people are claiming.

It's the cost of the unit, for a collector, who wan's one of each model, sure not that bad. For a player, it's a unit which could have been boxed, I'd pay $70 for a BM and 5 Khym, I'd pay 50+ for a BM and Clawed, I'd buy a BM and two flocks for $40. A realistic unit at this rate would cost $220 still, which would be somthing like 85 GBP (less GW Australias' 60% mark-up) or $140usd.


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jake wrote:
Seriously, when you were assembling your ideal Beast Master unit in your mind, how much did you think it would cost? It was always going to be an expensive unit. gak, even in plastic it would have been expensive. So why is everyone so surprised?

Yes because it would have a fair few models, but not more expensive than a 1000pts army from the same race~!

MikeMcSomething wrote:It's trying to put too fine of a point on things when you say people can discuss it's cost vs. it's points but not it's cost vs...the cost of other things someone could buy by default. These things aren't being judged by how much pewter and square inches they take up on a tabletop, they're generally being judged by how much more expensive they make a Dark Eldar army (or collection) to field them. If the same exact model was 50 dollars, cost 1400 points, and had stats commensurate with the points value, people would be falling over each other to pay for it. It currently costs too much to add too little so people are justifiably concerned.

GW's production schedule means for most gamers they usually only have one good chance to make that unit out of the codex everything it's customers have dreamed of (and would be happy to pay for) and when they blow it, it makes people understandably upset.

Sure. I don't disagree. Listen, I'm really only talking about the models value as models. That's all. There were several claims that the models were gak and that GW should feel ashamed for charging so much for models of that size. As if similar models at the exact same prices didn't already exist. as if it was unprecedented for GW to expect us to build a full unit out of expensive metal models.

My argument is this:

- The models for the Khymera and Clawed Fiend are large and well sculpted. Compared to similarly sized models from the GW range they are comparatively priced.

- We all know how much GW charged for metal models. Whether we think the cost if fair or not, this is a known factor and should not come as a surprise. We've been complaining about this for a decade, to the point where there is really nothing left to add. You won't find many people arguing that GW miniatures are cheap. The discusion has been had, recorded and archived. It's over. there's nothing of value to add to it.

- Filling up a thread with comments about how GW is over charging for a model accomplishes nothing. They aren't over charging for the models in question (the Khymera and the fiend) at least no more than they normally do. The models are fairly priced my GW standards. Complaining about this is unproductive and adds nothing to the discussion.

- The valid complaint (which many people are making) is that the fairly priced models are in fact to expensive to use. This is a totally valid complaint, but also a totally different one. That the two complaints are very, very often confused, bith here and in past threads, is problematic. That many people here don't seem to see the distinction is also problematic.

So yes, it's really unfortunate that GW didn't release more affordable miniatures to represent this unit. The cost of assembling even a small unit is pretty stupid. That said, the Clawed Fiend and Khymera models are fairly priced by GW standards. Complaining about their price (instead of the unit price) accomplishes nothing.

Who is complaining for complaining's sake?
People are discussing legitimate aspects of a specific release, not GW pricing in general.
No amount of whining about whiners will change anything either.

GW got this issue wrong imho and as far as I am aware am perfectly at liberty to air my views and question why GW have not taken a more gamer friendly approach.

You are being both patronising and terribly presumptuous.
It matters not a jot if GW pricing has already been discussed elsewhere. There are many instances on dakka of repetitive subjects which are easily avoided.

There are ways that GW could have made some of these models and packaged them that could have been both profitable and helpful to the gamer.

It was a great idea to stick the Beastmaster on a Helion, but not entirely necessary, so why choose to do a metal model? As suggested, the Beastmaster could easily have utilised parts from the Helions. A head and arm is all that GW would have required and not cost an arm and a leg.
There have been many posts suggesting conversions for other units had these models been plastic, so GW could have had a damn sight more sales from plastic kits had they been as lateral with their thinking as the Dakka crowd.
So childish, this thinking outside the box malarky.
GW just did not think this issue of models through.


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ps I still don't know how large a large thing is
you may contend that the figures are large, but without refrence it is meaningless.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Who is complaining for complaining's sake?
People are discussing legitimate aspects of a specific release, not GW pricing in general.
No amount of whining about whiners will change anything either.

GW got this issue wrong imho and as far as I am aware am perfectly at liberty to air my views and question why GW have not taken a more gamer friendly approach.

You are being both patronising and terribly presumptuous.
It matters not a jot if GW pricing has already been discussed elsewhere. There are many instances on dakka of repetitive subjects which are easily avoided.

There are ways that GW could have made some of these models and packaged them that could have been both profitable and helpful to the gamer.

It was a great idea to stick the Beastmaster on a Helion, but not entirely necessary, so why choose to do a metal model? As suggested, the Beastmaster could easily have utilised parts from the Helions. A head and arm is all that GW would have required and not cost an arm and a leg.
There have been many posts suggesting conversions for other units had these models been plastic, so GW could have had a damn sight more sales from plastic kits had they been as lateral with their thinking as the Dakka crowd.
So childish, this thinking outside the box malarky.
GW just did not think this issue of models through.

I'm done arguing this with you. Please enjoy your forums where every new release thread is full of the same useless complaining about GW prices.

ps I still don't know how large a large thing is
you may contend that the figures are large, but without refrence it is meaningless.

You may not be aware of this, but there are photos posted in this thread of the models next to other models from the GW line.

jake wrote:

JOHIRA wrote: I don't think the fiend looks good. It doesn't have any sense of motion

It doesn't have a sense of motion? It's leaping forward with it's weight on one arm, one leg up in the air and the other arm trailing behind it.

I disagree. I see it as dull and lifeless, like if the sculptor had asked their model to adopt the pose of what they think someone in the middle of a leap would look like, and then hold that pose for 2 hours. While the dire troll looks like a snap shot of something actually in movement.

But don't panic. Just because I think it's a terribly underwhelming sculpt doesn't mean you're not allowed to like it.

JOHIRA wrote:

jake wrote:

JOHIRA wrote: I don't think the fiend looks good. It doesn't have any sense of motion

It doesn't have a sense of motion? It's leaping forward with it's weight on one arm, one leg up in the air and the other arm trailing behind it.

I disagree. I see it as dull and lifeless, like if the sculptor had asked their model to adopt the pose of what they think someone in the middle of a leap would look like, and then hold that pose for 2 hours. While the dire troll looks like a snap shot of something actually in movement.

But don't panic. Just because I think it's a terribly underwhelming sculpt doesn't mean you're not allowed to like it.

Okay, so you think it looks like someone attempting to pose as if they're leaping, but you don't think this gives the illusion of motion? Okay, fine. I mean, I like the model and obviously you don't, so we totally disagree. But I can't see how you can possibly say the model lacks the illusion of motion. Especially after what you just said. I mean, it sounds like you just don't like it.


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Which is totally fine!

Panic wrote:yeah,

Oh new photos in the what's new post!


The FLock don't look so bad from this angle.



The Khymerae look hot!



less impressed with this dudes new photos...



Panic...

Big? They aren't that big at all actually.

I guess big is subjective. The Clawed Fiend looks bigger than a Tyranid Warrior but smaller than a Hive tyrant. That's pretty big to me. Both it an dthe Khymera are on large bases, and the Kymera look pretty bulky next to that space marine captain.

In both cases they're larger than Space Marines. The Clawed Fiend is quite a bit larger.

Anyway, the pictures show their exact size. There shouldn't be any reason to argue about it.

jake wrote:Okay, so you think it looks like someone attempting to pose as if they're leaping, but you don't think this gives the illusion of motion? Okay, fine. I mean, I like the model and obviously you don't, so we totally disagree. But I can't see how you can possibly say the model lacks the illusion of motion. Especially after what you just said. I mean, it sounds like you just don't like it.

He's saying that instead of the model looking like it's in motion, it's looking like someone trying to look like they're in motion while standing still. It's a difference between a thing looking like a thing and a thing looking like a thing trying to look like a thing. Crystal clear.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

jake wrote:Okay, so you think it looks like someone attempting to pose as if they're leaping, but you don't think this gives the illusion of motion? Okay, fine. I mean, I like the model and obviously you don't, so we totally disagree. But I can't see how you can possibly say the model lacks the illusion of motion. Especially after what you just said. I mean, it sounds like you just don't like it.

He's saying that instead of the model looking like it's in motion, it's looking like someone trying to look like they're in motion while standing still. It's a difference between a thing looking like a thing and a thing looking like a thing trying to look like a thing. Crystal clear.

I mean... saying that it looks like it's pretending that it's moving, but not actually moving, and therefor presents no illusion of motion... I mean... I mean... what the hell?


Sorry Johira. I'm turning this into a thing when it doesn't need to be. I won't say anymore.

ChrisCP wrote:
Yes because it would have a fair few models, but not more expensive than a 1000pts army from the same race~!

This is a bit of a lie it turns out.




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Actually, my "Professionally-trained-by-an-artist-eye" (I could only affor to have one done :( ) belives this is because of

These bits, The fiend has opposable thumbs, there is no reason that fist should be positioned in such a way. The arm is fully extended while the leg is bent and it still bearly reaches the ground, it would have given no grip and no thrust to this jump. Same with the toes, jus what are they actually doing? Not providing footing to leap from that's for sure. What is that muscle membrane thing under it's left arm there for?
And the legs also have no muscle mass especially when compared to the biceps and that the lags are coverd in fur.

These (and other) small details about the sculpt, turn it into something very-very 'meh'. It's unfortunate that I really value having the appropriate model to the point of going without.

I'm still not sure why GW is making anything in metal that it doesn't strictly have to (like human-sized one-off special characters). :(

Surely with their economies of scale they should be able to make more profit on plastic kits than the Perry Brothers do, and even a DE beast unit should sell better than the Perrys' most popular plastic set, right? So unless GW are *horribly* inefficient, they must be doing something wrong...

Ian Sturrock wrote:I'm still not sure why GW is making anything in metal that it doesn't strictly have to (like human-sized one-off special characters).

Because plastic moulds are still expensive to make, and for models you do not expect to sell a lot of (either because people don't need many or only need one) metal makes the most sense.

a box of 36 ACW infantry models are about the same as 1 clawed fiend. A box of their excellent new Zouaves only a little bit more and they are 42 to a box.

Is the price of these models a surprise...no they pretty much reflect the current business model. Were people hoping that things would be different with DE since they are a completely redone line..yes. At the end of the day 40K is a game. These are game pieces. These models were not design to be practical. Who can afford a reasonably sized beast master unit? People will see this price and just fill out their points with something more affordable. This is exactly the same problem similarly priced models in the GW line have. Who can afford a full unit of wraithguard? It's just bad business to price them this way when the game you design them for requires you to field these models in large numbers. Bad business GW. This is how people justify recasting. Especially when you only have 1 or two variant poses. In Warhammer and 40k in this day and age metal blisters should be reserved for ICs, upgrade characters or collector sculpts. Models you might actually only buy 1 or 2 of total. Not rank and files.

The whats new article was stupid, just FYI.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Ian Sturrock wrote:I'm still not sure why GW is making anything in metal that it doesn't strictly have to (like human-sized one-off special characters).

Because plastic moulds are still expensive to make, and for models you do not expect to sell a lot of (either because people don't need many or only need one) metal makes the most sense.

But HBMC, you ignored his explanation which makes perfect sense. Yes they will not make as much on the plastic mold as they will on metal, but a plastic set has a much longer life-span, and also encourages purchasing because of how cross-compatible they are. If little companies are able to produce plastic sets with their MUCH lower revenues, why would GW make anything else for non-special characters? It's a better gamble long-term than their metal figure here. The metal "set" of all the BM figures is getting panned. A plastic set would at least have new bitz usable by the Hellions or for conversions. At metal prices though, it's only for the truly die-hard group. Everyone else will proxy it, and likely using plastic hellions and non-GW figures for the beasts.

I completely agree with Ian's assessment. What a waste to keep making metal.