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Breotan wrote:Okay guys, let's be real. The sculpts are pretty damned nice. You might not like the Vespid motif of the beastmaster critters, and that's certainly okay to gripe about, but calling the sculpts ugly is just trolling. It's the price, not the sculpting that's going to drive people away from this release.

Spoken like a gentlemen, sir. Spot on.

Yes they are good models, no quarrel there (at least from me). However, the models being metal and the pricing have turned me away. I will find something plastic and convert. Shame though, I do like the khymrae.

I'm seeing the same response people give the nercon pariahs with these releases. Surely GW could box them up a little cheaper than this...

Good models though, but being good doesn't necessarily mean people will get them.

The sculpts are fine, aside from the Beastmaster which is pretty poor, IMO. The prices are ridiculous and I expect GW will see very poor sales for this wave. I hope that it doesn't diminish or delay future DE releases, though. Venom, Razorwing/Voidraven, Scourges, Wracks, Haemonculi, and Talos/Chronos will all do better than any of this.

Manchu wrote:

The Fragile Breath wrote: . . . something but I was distracted by the username.

Holy gak that is an awesome username. Please tell me your army is called Kabal of the Fragile Breath. Morathi's Darkest Sin has some competition here for best handle, I think.

This bit made my day, mind if I sig it?

It makes me wonder why they couldnt have just included the beastmaster as an alternate model for the Hellions. Doesnt appear to be that much different in the codex (the robed legs are a nice touch, but If a simple headswap can give me cheaper Beastmasters I'd gladly take them).

As for the beasts themselves, I still say they should have released the Khymera and Razorwings as plastics. If they had done Beastmasters as an alternate to the Hellions, Razorwings could just be attached to the sprues like Tyranid Rippers.

۞ Jack ۞ wrote:

We're all sitting around b!tching about the price of the masked gorilla mutant, and you post something that's more than twice as expensive .
Something cheaper and better would, by far, be a better post (and one I'd LOVE to see).

You might wanna do a size check
The troll is quite a bit bigger.
So its price would be more.

I say to hell with GW on this one, im going to find some small plastic care bears to use instead.

I noticed.
That's not the point, though. The point (I thought) was to find LESS expensive alternatives.

You had me at Care Bears. You had me at Care Bears... ; )

Eric

cheapest alternative I can see are rat ogres, especially second hand ones from IoB. Give it a random bestial head from another set and you should be ok. Works especially well if you have the HPA as that has a few extra stuff that would be great for the tail and other potiential conversion parts.

MagickalMemories wrote:

JOHIRA wrote:Holy Gak, it's muscle-bound behemoth ready to beat me into a fine mist!

Oh how cute, someone gave the gorilla a Halloween mask and some beer. Now it's struggling to stand up on two legs.

IMO, not a fair comparison.

We're all sitting around b!tching about the price of the masked gorilla mutant, and you post something that's more than twice as expensive .
Something cheaper and better would, by far, be a better post (and one I'd LOVE to see).

Eric

But see, I don't criticise models to fit you guys' needs. I do it to fit mine. I don't want to build an army of DE beasts. I want models that look good. I don't think the fiend looks good. It doesn't have any sense of motion (although the more I see it the more it looks like it's in mid-stumble), it doesn't have any sense of malice or danger, which is something that every DE model should have by default. It's exquisite fur detailing on a dull and pedestrian pose. To me, that is unacceptable on a "Porsche of miniatures", as GW likes to call their product. The Dire Troll was not posted as an alternative to help you guys build an army, it is to show just how poor of an imitation the clawed fiend is.

(That, and I was hoping someone would crack a joke about GW sending PP a C&D. Perhaps back in time. Oh, sorry, I mean "Perhaps BiT.")

I misuinderstood your intent for posting the links, then.
Thanks for clarifying.

Eric

Rat ogres would work as mentioned.
Plenty of random beast like heads about, and they are small enough that making a GS mould of them would be quick and easy.

H.B.M.C. wrote: I mean c'mon Kroot - 1 Flock of Seagulls per blister? That's highway fething robbery.

If you are on budget, distribute the Seagulls of one blister onto (3-) 4 bases.


Of course there are dozens of non-GW alternatives like bats, stirges, winged rippers or plastic doves from a 5$ farm set from Toys-R-Us .

Agamemnon2 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
I'm not trying to rebut or defend. Quit trying to put words in my mouth.

...

Again: Quit trying to put words into my mouth.

That's not what that phrase even means. Putting words into one's mouth means lying about or misrepresenting what's being said. What HBMC is doing is questioning your motives while reproducing your questionable statements verbatim, a completely different animal.

And if you're not trying to rebut other posters or defend GW, what the hell are you doing? You're consistently disagreeing with everyone and taking a pro-GW stance at every turn, consistently claiming their customers are a despicable bunch of slowed ingrates. Maybe you should consider migrating to Warseer, where your insulting and predictable sentiments would, I have no doubt, establish you into a position of awe and envy among the spineless cretins that still inhabit that festering pit of maggots.

Very good Agamemnon2. Harsh, but entirely accurate.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:It makes me wonder why they couldnt have just included the beastmaster as an alternate model for the Hellions ... If they had done Beastmasters as an alternate to the Hellions, Razorwings could just be attached to the sprues like Tyranid Rippers.

Caution! Common sense outbreak detected!

Agamemnon2 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
I'm not trying to rebut or defend. Quit trying to put words in my mouth.

...

Again: Quit trying to put words into my mouth.

That's not what that phrase even means. Putting words into one's mouth means lying about or misrepresenting what's being said. What HBMC is doing is questioning your motives while reproducing your questionable statements verbatim, a completely different animal.

It's either "quit trying to put words into my mouth" or "quit trying to consistently pin underlying motives that are not actually present in my statement".

And for the record? It works just fine when the other person is effectively "putting words in my mouth", reading more into the statement than was intended.

And if you're not trying to rebut other posters or defend GW, what the hell are you doing? You're consistently disagreeing with everyone and taking a pro-GW stance at every turn, consistently claiming their customers are a despicable bunch of slowed ingrates.

No, I don't "claim that their customers are a despicable bunch of slowed ingrates".
I do, however, believe that the customers who actively post on forums outside of Whineseer are hatemongering gits who wouldn't be happy even if GW was giving things away.

They're not the same thing, not even remotely.

Maybe you should consider migrating to Warseer, where your insulting and predictable sentiments would, I have no doubt, establish you into a position of awe and envy among the spineless cretins that still inhabit that festering pit of maggots.

Clearly, because that's why I post on Dakka. Because I want awe and envy from the heaving masses who can't even go five minutes without flinging vitriol in every direction.

I have a trainline outside my apartment. If there were a train wreck right now I'd probably strain my neck as I looked back and forth between the train wreck of this thread and the other train wreck outside my window!

Necroagogo wrote:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:It makes me wonder why they couldnt have just included the beastmaster as an alternate model for the Hellions ... If they had done Beastmasters as an alternate to the Hellions, Razorwings could just be attached to the sprues like Tyranid Rippers.

Caution! Common sense outbreak detected!

Ah. I forgot for a sec I was dealing with GW =P

Also, is it just me or does every thread Kanluwen post in inevitably turns into a long trail of pointless arguing?

That succubus looks like a transvestite. The second wave of DE is a huge failure in comparison to the initial releases!

JOHIRA wrote: I don't think the fiend looks good. It doesn't have any sense of motion

It doesn't have a sense of motion? It's leaping forward with it's weight on one arm, one leg up in the air and the other arm trailing behind it. The creature is modeled as if in mid run! Do you... do you understand what motion is? It's okay not to like the model, but claiming that it appears to be motionless is just ridiculous.

yeah,
hahaha I make jake fething right.
that thing could not be doing any more running!

Panic...

Also, while the prices per model are pretty ridiculous for such a potentially large unit, the actual model prices for at least the Clawed Fiend and the Kymera aren't that much of a departure for GW.

Kroxigors are $22.50 each. Stone Trolls, Ushabati and Yhetee are $22.25. $22.50 for the Clawed Fiend, which seems to be as big as any of these and better sculpted than most, seems like the standard price.

Centigor, Rough Riders and Questing Knights are $12.25. Carrion are $15.00 Hive Guard and Venomthropes are $20. $14 for the Kymera, which seem to be pretty large, seems like the standard price.

The Beast Master's price is fairly ludicrous considering that you can get a box of Hellions for $10 more, and the Razorwings do seem a overpriced for what they are, but the rest seem fairly priced for models of their size.

So really, it's not that these new models are too expensive for the kind of model they are. They actually seem to be fairly priced for the size of the model and quality of the sculpt (by GW standards anyway).

People have pointed out that making huge beast units is now completely unfordable. This is totally true. I don't feel like there was any expectation that this would be a plastic kit though, so I'm not seeing how this was really unexpected.

Also, I don't see how this makes Beastmaster units unplayable. Certainly we don't have to use full sized units. Is no one considering making smaller beast units? It seems like you could still make effective units without costing an arm and a leg. I'm looking forward to running a Clawed Fiend and a few Razorwings as a unit in small games.

A small unit eg. 3BM, 5Khym, 4Flocks is 156pts.

It's also $274...


Also them Khymera are 7!! piece models =P

ChrisCP wrote:A small unit eg. 3BM, 5Khym, 4Flocks is 156pts.

It's also $274...


Also them Khymera are 7!! piece models =P

Who would want to use three of the Beast Masters though? I know I'll be using Hellions, and I suspect even people who buy the Beast Master will only get one. So... 5 Khymera is $70. That's pretty spendy, but not so bad if you're willing to pay for nice looking models.

So, $70 for the Khymera, $15 for the Hellions and whatever you want to pay for 4 birds (because I agree that the Razor wings are a rip-off and a poor model). Very likely less than $100 for the squad. Expensive? Hell yes, but not $274. And not outside of what one might be willing to pay for a squad of really nice looking miniatures.

My plan is 2 Clawed Fiends and 4 Razorwings. Not sure what I'll use for the actual Razorwings, but I doubt I'll pay more than $5/base. So my total cost is likely about $85. Not so bad.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

Necroagogo wrote:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:It makes me wonder why they couldnt have just included the beastmaster as an alternate model for the Hellions ... If they had done Beastmasters as an alternate to the Hellions, Razorwings could just be attached to the sprues like Tyranid Rippers.

Caution! Common sense outbreak detected!

Ah. I forgot for a sec I was dealing with GW =P

Also, is it just me or does every thread Kanluwen post in inevitably turns into a long trail of pointless arguing?

It is not just you.

ChrisCP wrote:A small unit eg. 3BM, 5Khym, 4Flocks is 156pts.

It's also $274...


Also them Khymera are 7!! piece models =P

Also, where were you getting $274?

khymera $14 x 5= $70

Razorwings $12.25 x 4= $50

Beast Masters $15 x 3= $45

Total: $165

Stupidly expensive, yes. But I still think the Khymera are worth their cost model wise. The Beast Masters and Razorwings really aren't, in my opinion.

Also, where were you getting $274?

Um, the person who came up with $274 is in Australia. This is an international forum, you need to look at the origin of the person posting for context. Total $165 is in US dollars. Not everyone using $ is in the US.

The point is, in whatever unit of currency you get your money it's an expensive unit of models based on the number of models you get for the money.

jake wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:A small unit eg. 3BM, 5Khym, 4Flocks is 156pts.

It's also $274...


Also them Khymera are 7!! piece models =P

Who would want to use three of the Beast Masters though? I know I'll be using Hellions, and I suspect even people who buy the Beast Master will only get one. So... 5 Khymera is $70. That's pretty spendy, but not so bad if you're willing to pay for nice looking models.

So, $70 for the Khymera, $15 for the Hellions and whatever you want to pay for 4 birds (because I agree that the Razor wings are a rip-off and a poor model). Very likely less than $100 for the squad. Expensive? Hell yes, but not $274. And not outside of what one might be willing to pay for a squad of really nice looking miniatures.

My plan is 2 Clawed Fiends and 4 Razorwings. Not sure what I'll use for the actual Razorwings, but I doubt I'll pay more than $5/base. So my total cost is likely about $85. Not so bad.

...Obviously the cost can be mitigated by kit-bashing, but that is beside the point of, as a DE player I would like to use the actual models, not something that 'looks appropriate' and might be questioned when I start playing strangers again. Some people might by sympathetic, but when one's not using a model that's currently in production in a tournament enviroment, so,mething could always go wrong and wind up wasting time and possibly the money one save to.

jake wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:A small unit eg. 3BM, 5Khym, 4Flocks is 156pts.
It's also $274...
Also them Khymera are 7!! piece models =P

Also, where were you getting $274?
khymera $14 x 5= $70
Razorwings $12.25 x 4= $50
Beast Masters $15 x 3= $45
Total: $165
Stupidly expensive, yes. But I still think the Khymera are worth their cost model wise. The Beast Masters and Razorwings really aren't, in my opinion.

Welcome to Australia~!
Btw atm $165US=$162.99516 Australian dollars, our dollar is stronger than yours too :(
& 274 Australian dollars = 277.1784 U.S. dollars :*(

$18 for the pack of 4

I missed that you were in Australia.

My point though is that the Khymera and Clawed Fiend are fairly priced models (for GW models). Obviously we can use other stuff to fill their spots if we want to, but if we want the actual models there's not much point in complaining about their cost, which is very comparable to similar sized metal models.

Or to put it another way, I'm mystified by the outrage over the cost of the models. Not the cost of assembling a unit. I get that. But the cost of the models themselves. So many people in this thread and the sister thread on Warseer are claiming that GW are way overcharging for the Clawed Fiend and the Khymera. They're not. The cost of these models is, as I pointed out before, comparable to other metal models of similar size. Yes, using the models to assemble a unit, especially a large one, is stupidly expensive. But the Khymera and Clawed Fiend models themselves are not overpriced rip offs as many people are claiming.

JOHIRA wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:

JOHIRA wrote:Holy Gak, it's muscle-bound behemoth ready to beat me into a fine mist!

Oh how cute, someone gave the gorilla a Halloween mask and some beer. Now it's struggling to stand up on two legs.

IMO, not a fair comparison.

We're all sitting around b!tching about the price of the masked gorilla mutant, and you post something that's more than twice as expensive .
Something cheaper and better would, by far, be a better post (and one I'd LOVE to see).

Eric

But see, I don't criticise models to fit you guys' needs. I do it to fit mine. I don't want to build an army of DE beasts. I want models that look good. I don't think the fiend looks good. It doesn't have any sense of motion (although the more I see it the more it looks like it's in mid-stumble), it doesn't have any sense of malice or danger, which is something that every DE model should have by default. It's exquisite fur detailing on a dull and pedestrian pose. To me, that is unacceptable on a "Porsche of miniatures", as GW likes to call their product. The Dire Troll was not posted as an alternative to help you guys build an army, it is to show just how poor of an imitation the clawed fiend is.

(That, and I was hoping someone would crack a joke about GW sending PP a C&D. Perhaps back in time. Oh, sorry, I mean "Perhaps BiT.")

Eh, I'm not seeing a lack of motion there. The angle hiding the left leg doesn't help and the face could be more expressive but otherwise I think it's a great model.
If I ever put my Circle army together (and depending on the actual size of the fiend) I'd use him instead of PPs Gorax model in a second (faint praise I know, I'd use a wad of gum over the Gorax model).