Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

"Exploding 6's"? Sounds likes sales jargon to me.

It is a system used in some games which iirc means that a six is rerolled for another hit and another six gets rerolled ad infinitum if you have loaded dice!

It is not very likely that Warpath will adopt the system.

Ah, I see, thanks for explaining!

Well I just saw over on BoW that the open Beta will be out in a couple of weeks or so. Ronnie and Alessio said they would never have released anything at the Alpha stage but BoW wanted something exclusive for their backstage venture and Mantic were happy to oblige. It's interesting to see a game at such an early, raw, stage of development. If you guys get involved in the Beta I'm sure it will follow a similar process to Kings of War, which is still in a Beta phase, and that they will adjust points/rules accordingly if anyone picks up on anything.

It's just refreshing for me to be able to get involved with a game early in its development. I liked how GW did Battlefleet Gothic & Mordheim through White Dwarf back in the day and enjoyed them a lot, I'm hoping the same thing can be said for Warpath.

Well I have recently got hold of a copy of the test rules. In the short time I hae had to check it out it looks very similar to Kings of War and uses a similar system. However there are a lot of improvements. The rules have more detail than KoW but still no where near 40k.

There are some different stats:
Type (type of model and number per unit)
Hit (roll required to hit in CC and ranged)
Firepower (number of ranged shots)
Range (range of missile weapons)
Attacks (umber of attacks in melee)
Defense (as in KoW)
Nerve (as in KoW)

The system for unlocking units is the same. For every unit of 10 infantry you get, 1 hero/ monster and 1 Aircraft / Vehicle / ordanance.
The vehicle rules are very similar to rules for other units but have a few special rules and have their own damage table.
Units are much smaller, in the lists i've seen 20 models is the biggest- the nerve values are much lower so this is going to be a much more brutal game. Models are deployed individualy but must stay within 1 inch of each other and within 5 of the squad leader.
Units can upgrade individuals to carry powerful weapons- mainly for anti tank. These are free to shoot at a different unit to the rest of the squad. You also get close combat weapons. Some of these weapons are very power- e.g peircing 6
Characters can be upgraded. You can give them basic weapons which change their stats.
Units can be kept as reinforcements and come on later - like reserves.
Aircraft must come on as reserves. They can be used every other turn as they must fligh away to turn around in between. They are much harder to hit than normal units.
Vehicles have one defense value but get negative modifiers for being hit on the sides or rear.
There are lots more special rules than in KoW, such as hover vehicle, jump troops, explosive weapons

I'll add more if anything interesting turns up, i've had literally 5 minutes to read through it.

Ok well that sounded a bit better. These rules have grabbed my interest a bit.

One thing that is puzzling me...

This is aimed at being a faster game (timed/steamlined rules) BUT it is aimed at being huge too with many models on the table. These aren't on movement trays however so this is going to take AGES to move.

I've never even played a green horde or nid horde but I bet we'll be seeing armies with more guys then this and moving them all individually is going to take a lot longer time wise. Maybe not enough to warrant a moan but it's just something I've noticed.

20 models max per squad isn't many points from the lists I have in front of me. Unless it's the harder elite units.

Still - can't wait to try the rules out properly

Neconilis wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:So, Mantic's strategy to kill 40k is ... to release a 40k clone? I hope their models are up to snuff because the ruleset sounds ill-conceived and stillborn.

Sounds good to me, I want a game where I can use the 40K models that I already have, and supplement my existing forces with affordable new models.

Agreed


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Devourer wrote:Well I have recently got hold of a copy of the test rules. In the short time I hae had to check it out it looks very similar to Kings of War and uses a similar system. However there are a lot of improvements. The rules have more detail than KoW but still no where near 40k.

There are some different stats:
Type (type of model and number per unit)
Hit (roll required to hit in CC and ranged)
Firepower (number of ranged shots)
Range (range of missile weapons)
Attacks (umber of attacks in melee)
Defense (as in KoW)
Nerve (as in KoW)

The system for unlocking units is the same. For every unit of 10 infantry you get, 1 hero/ monster and 1 Aircraft / Vehicle / ordanance.
The vehicle rules are very similar to rules for other units but have a few special rules and have their own damage table.
Units are much smaller, in the lists i've seen 20 models is the biggest- the nerve values are much lower so this is going to be a much more brutal game. Models are deployed individualy but must stay within 1 inch of each other and within 5 of the squad leader.
Units can upgrade individuals to carry powerful weapons- mainly for anti tank. These are free to shoot at a different unit to the rest of the squad. You also get close combat weapons. Some of these weapons are very power- e.g peircing 6
Characters can be upgraded. You can give them basic weapons which change their stats.
Units can be kept as reinforcements and come on later - like reserves.
Aircraft must come on as reserves. They can be used every other turn as they must fligh away to turn around in between. They are much harder to hit than normal units.
Vehicles have one defense value but get negative modifiers for being hit on the sides or rear.
There are lots more special rules than in KoW, such as hover vehicle, jump troops, explosive weapons

I'll add more if anything interesting turns up, i've had literally 5 minutes to read through it.

This sounds good

Especially the flyers!
I would love to load an army full of bombers!

And while like to think of them as mutant zoid babies.......I also like the thunder-cat tanks

Well the army list I have seen is for the not-squats and the biggest unit you can get is 20. If mantic follow there trend other armies will be of a similar size. In KoW units come in 5s, 10s, 20s and 40s. In warpath you get 5s, 10 and 20s. This usually stays the same for most armies.

I don't think mantic want to kill of 40k they want to provide an alternative that is similar enough for people to feel like the game makes sense while removing a lot of the problems people have with starting wargames (complex rules and high costs).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but casualties are not removed from squads as with KoW?

If so, I'm guessing this game is meant to be played with movement trays and whatnot, for ease of manoeuvres and eventual casualty removal through squad destruction.

Casulties removed like KoW so you could use a tray. The movement is open and it can be beneficial to change the shape of units so it probably isn't advised.

Could see them do skirmisher trays or something like that.

BrookM wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but casualties are not removed from squads as with KoW?

If so, I'm guessing this game is meant to be played with movement trays and whatnot, for ease of manoeuvres and eventual casualty removal through squad destruction.

EDIT 2: Just realised I was ninja'd ¬.¬

Whoa, that's a wacky thought. Since the squad is staying the same "size" and takes up space on the field, it can deny space to the enemy even when its heavily damaged. Looking forward to seeing the SQUAD be the important thing, not what the squad carries (the interplay of armour/antiarmour weapons better be balanced)

Alpharius wrote:
OT - this game sounds less exciting the more I hear.

It sounds vaguely AT-43ish, the whole less is more approach usually ends up with less really being... less.
.

That's my thought too. I was excited about AT-43 and bought a Red Blok army. My buddy brought his Union(?) army and watched while I removed handfuls of his models on my turn. The game play left a lot to be desired.

I'd like to see Mantic do well. Right now its best asset seems to be its pricing and aggressive "stick it to GW" marketing. If they can keep it up, then kudos to them.

What I really want to see, though, is interesting alternate armies in plastic. I'm really hoping they don't make Space Armoured Guys, Imperial Army Guys, Space Elves, Space Orcs etc. But that's me coming from the creative side, and Mantic seems to be about the cost-cutting side. At least they're smart enough to find their market and try not to be all things to all people.

I played nids in 40k. During the movement phase I moved my 100+ models. Then during the shooting phase, they fleeted and/or ran. So I moved the 100+ models again. While my opponent stood there and waited.

IGOUGO is fine when the model count is less than 50 or so. Or when everything is on movement trays and goes quickly. The rules may be incredibly fast for Warpath, but you're still going to have a massive amount of models to move while the other player is basically unengaged with the game. Yep, they can plan their strategy for next turn during your turn, but for some, that's not going to take too long.

40k's biggest problem is its turn structure. At least it had the other player rolling armour saves for something to do. Mantic has this "chess clock" idea stuck in there heads to the point where they want the other person doing absolutely nothing during your turn.

Combine this with their "building big armies" approach and Warpath is going to come across as a snooze-fest for a lot of people.

And the contained turns means that one of the hallmarks of combat after the invention of the bullet casing will not be present. Covering a field of fire. There's no interrupting movement to shoot at a target down a fire lane. Heck, they could appear, walk right up to you, fight you in close combat and you don't even get a chance to hurt them in close combat until your turn comes around.

It's silly enough in 40k, but atleast 40k has both people fighting in the assault phase.

It's a shame Mantic took the time to build an alternative to 40k, but then choose to emphasize 40k's weaknesses in terms of the turn structure.

I think a lot of people are looking a mantic games the wrong way.

40k is massed battle game that leans towards the skirmish side so focuses on the individual.

While KoW and Warpath use 28mm miniatures their rules are much closer to 10/15mm games. Much more abstract and what happens to an individiual is largely irrelevant. You can see it most clearly in how characters are handled.

let 40k have there game , Warpath is different , its NOT a skirmish game.

Its epic at 28mm scale , each figure represents possibly 1000′s of forgefathers or marauders…its the kind of battle you had in the middle ages projected into space.

If you want I think it would work as a skirmish game , but (and I am fueled here by just watching the new Star Wars trailers for The Old Republic) it is hundreds of Jedi rusing towards thousands of Sith Warriors with sabers ignited…for me its how you imagine the scale.

If I wanted my special ops super SAS marine types to blow up stuff…it could work , but I want HUGE battles…


Automatically Appended Next Post:

frozenwastes wrote:Mantic has this "chess clock" idea stuck in there heads to the point where they want the other person doing absolutely nothing during your turn.

thinking like that already gets you killed in WP , if you dont take the time your opponent gives you by moving to think about your next move , your buggered....you will just waste your own time.
and it doesnt have to be played with clocks.

Does Mantic pay you? If so, can I join in and be paid in boxes of zombies and ghouls?

Marauders (chaosy human dudes) vs Forgefathers (midgets with beards in space)...


Far enough away from GW to cause no IP problems.

Then will/should come:
Space Robots
Space Elves
Evil Space Elves
Sporcs! (Space Orcs)
Space asian giant battlesuit using communists
Space bugs
Loyalist humans with lots of tanks.

The rules are an excuse to sell us models to fill our 40k armies, much, much cheaper than GW can... that is where they will make their money.
I know noone who plays KOW, but dozens of guys are buying up full armies for WHFB.

For those that are interested there are some new concept sketches up in BoW's 'On the Table' - and you don't even have to pay

http://www.beastsofwar.com/on-the-table/onthetable-10june2011/

I'm pretty certain those earlier leaked sketches were just designers getting ideas onto paper. Looking at the new ones I have to say I'm liking them, time will tell how they change/how close the models are to them.

Yup
Have to agree Warspawned
They looked just like very early stages to me rather than developed design studies, which these new pics.

The former were just pushing ideas around.

warspawned wrote:For those that are interested there are some new concept sketches up in BoW's 'On the Table' - and you don't even have to pay

http://www.beastsofwar.com/on-the-table/onthetable-10june2011/

I'm pretty certain those earlier leaked sketches were just designers getting ideas onto paper. Looking at the new ones I have to say I'm liking them, time will tell how they change/how close the models are to them.

Oh look, dwarves in space with big guns and axes and hammers and the concepts showed off trikes so all we need now is a land train and we're so not going to talk about them again.

And it's good to see BoW doing something like this again, though they could do without all those propaganda interstitials in between, any more of those and I'll wake up with a red armband or something sinister.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:Marauders (chaosy human dudes) vs Forgefathers (midgets with beards in space)...


Far enough away from GW to cause no IP problems.

The Marauders are Orks, not Humans. They've got Grots, Killa Kans, Trukks and Battlewagons. Ergo, Orks.

AlexHolker wrote:

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:Marauders (chaosy human dudes) vs Forgefathers (midgets with beards in space)...


Far enough away from GW to cause no IP problems.

The Marauders are Orks, not Humans. They've got Grots, Killa Kans, Trukks and Battlewagons. Ergo, Orks.

Hmm, that makes the choice harder. Unless of course they have another great introductory set

All in all, I'm extremely disappointed in what I'm seeing so far.

IMHO the rules lack any substance....it's like tiddlywinks. Ok, I understand that some people will like this, but for me, I'm not looking for something this simplistic....

While we're seeing some shots of Dwarves....again, WTF....I was hoping we would see something along the lines of Mass Effect....i.e something futuristic, innovative and compelling....and if it had to be dwarves, I was hoping they would at least take from Hasslefree's example, where they look Sci Fi.....and those IDIOTS go and do a grim dark affair.....what a waste of time.

After reading the rules, and getting a sneak peak at what they are planning miniature wise, I'm inlined to believe these guys are going to target WH40K in the most direct way possible, and to me this is a fail.

I know it's early days. But if they continue down this path they would have wasted a massive opportunity, and made my spending decisions even easier.

Delephont wrote:All in all, I'm extremely disappointed in what I'm seeing so far.

IMHO the rules lack any substance....it's like tiddlywinks. Ok, I understand that some people will like this, but for me, I'm not looking for something this simplistic....

While we're seeing some shots of Dwarves....again, WTF....I was hoping we would see something along the lines of Mass Effect....i.e something futuristic, innovative and compelling....and if it had to be dwarves, I was hoping they would at least take from Hasslefree's example, where they look Sci Fi.....and those IDIOTS go and do a grim dark affair.....what a waste of time.

After reading the rules, and getting a sneak peak at what they are planning miniature wise, I'm inlined to believe these guys are going to target WH40K in the most direct way possible, and to me this is a fail.

I know it's early days. But if they continue down this path they would have wasted a massive opportunity, and made my spending decisions even easier.

See, Delephont...I kind of like those "Forgefathers".

A lot of the gear reminds me of the Asgard from SG-1 and the 'rogue' Asgard from Stargate: Atlantis.
Does it look fairly generic and dwarfy? Yeah.

But I'll hold judgement until I see the humans. If they look like Cadians, I'll be disappointed. They could do something far more futuristic and go away from 'tradition' there. The ODST example that you and I had in Ramshackle's thread would go fantastic there.

I'm torn, I really like the rules (they are much simpler than 40k but that doesn't mean less tactical. There is no rock paper scissors that is presesnt in 40k) but I really don't like the way they are copying 40k. I want sci fi not fantasy in space. KoW works because both GW and mantic have used common fantasy races and mantic are sufficiently different. I really hope they move away from GW.

While it makes sense if they want to just sell models they aren't going to make their own game doing it this way.

I'm actually happy about the simplicity of the rules. I try to get my friends to play 40K, and honestly when you look at it with your n00b glasses on again there is a TON to learn. A tome the size of a college textbook, then all the books for supplemental rules on each army. Differing stats, tables to roll against, different gear and it's all on a large scale...well, it's quite intimidating. My friends aren't really dummies, either. It's just hard to get someone excited about a game they aren't really into with that big of a hurdle to jump just to get started.

I say bring on the simplicity, and keep it tactically open.

I like the look of the Forgefathers, any Marauder pics yet?

Kanluwen wrote:But I'll hold judgement until I see the humans. If they look like Cadians, I'll be disappointed. They could do something far more futuristic and go away from 'tradition' there. The ODST example that you and I had in Ramshackle's thread would go fantastic there.

Agreed. My comments are based on what's there at the moment.

However I get the feeling, like many others, that Mantic are heading down the Fantasy in Space idea....which, while I'm no GW fan, that was one of GW's innovations and it worked for them. Yeah, I know FASA Corporation did it with Shadow-Run, but I believe GW was the first to do it to such an extent, and in wargame form.

If Mantic continue to persue the path it seems they MAY persue, I can see alot of people actually returning to GW in a kind of "sympathy vote" type of response. Mantic will be seen as the evil pretenders to the GW throne, and may even come across as "more" money grabbing then GW just for having targeted another company so directly with no innovation of thier own.....EVEN I would see GW in a different light should that happen.