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Well I will have to agree, hold your breath until you see humans

Here's hoping for human soldiers with body armour that doesn't have shoulder guards.

BrookM wrote:Here's hoping for human soldiers with body armour that doesn't have excessively huge shoulder guards.

I fixed your statement to say what I'm hoping for.

Shoulderguards by themselves? Not a 'bad' thing.

Shoulderguards bigger than their heads?

Bad thing.

frozenwastes wrote:I played nids in 40k. During the movement phase I moved my 100+ models. Then during the shooting phase, they fleeted and/or ran. So I moved the 100+ models again. While my opponent stood there and waited.

IGOUGO is fine when the model count is less than 50 or so. Or when everything is on movement trays and goes quickly. The rules may be incredibly fast for Warpath, but you're still going to have a massive amount of models to move while the other player is basically unengaged with the game. Yep, they can plan their strategy for next turn during your turn, but for some, that's not going to take too long.

40k's biggest problem is its turn structure. At least it had the other player rolling armour saves for something to do. Mantic has this "chess clock" idea stuck in there heads to the point where they want the other person doing absolutely nothing during your turn.

Combine this with their "building big armies" approach and Warpath is going to come across as a snooze-fest for a lot of people.

And the contained turns means that one of the hallmarks of combat after the invention of the bullet casing will not be present. Covering a field of fire. There's no interrupting movement to shoot at a target down a fire lane. Heck, they could appear, walk right up to you, fight you in close combat and you don't even get a chance to hurt them in close combat until your turn comes around.

It's silly enough in 40k, but atleast 40k has both people fighting in the assault phase.

It's a shame Mantic took the time to build an alternative to 40k, but then choose to emphasize 40k's weaknesses in terms of the turn structure.

Delephont wrote:All in all, I'm extremely disappointed in what I'm seeing so far.

IMHO the rules lack any substance....it's like tiddlywinks. Ok, I understand that some people will like this, but for me, I'm not looking for something this simplistic....

While we're seeing some shots of Dwarves....again, WTF....I was hoping we would see something along the lines of Mass Effect....i.e something futuristic, innovative and compelling....and if it had to be dwarves, I was hoping they would at least take from Hasslefree's example, where they look Sci Fi.....and those IDIOTS go and do a grim dark affair.....what a waste of time.

After reading the rules, and getting a sneak peak at what they are planning miniature wise, I'm inlined to believe these guys are going to target WH40K in the most direct way possible, and to me this is a fail.

I know it's early days. But if they continue down this path they would have wasted a massive opportunity, and made my spending decisions even easier.

With due respect, it's hard to take these complaints seriously. Partly it's because some of them address issues that arise out of ignorance of the alpha rules, but mostly, because they are flavor complaints, rather then mechanical complaints.

That is, they are not complaints that a unit is undercosted, or a mechanic leads to an infinite loop, or that movement rules need clarity in some respect; it's the complaint that the guy selling chocolate ice cream isn't selling butter almond.

What makes it hard to take seriously is that this is the Alpha; if you want X, Y and Z, pony up the $6 and tell the guys making the game directly. I mean, now is the time to speak up; the guy is deciding what flavors of ice cream to stock in the store and asking what people want to eat.

That said, in all honesty, you should be prepared for the obvious counter: the game you seem to be claiming to want already exists (it's Infinity). You want high interaction and reactive turns? Infinity. Mass Effect style miniatures that are "futuristic, innovative and compelling"? Infinity. (By the way, though this may seem flip, I am genuinely trying to point out Infinity as an alternative here, as it seems like both of you would be very happy with it, and it's a game that can never get too much exposure.)

As for the issues of turn length, I think it's a bit premature to comment that the game will drag and be a snoozefest before playing a game of it (or even reading the rules...), and the nature of the models also brings a different point: you have to remember what Mantic is. It isn't Studio McVey or Corvus Bell, making super high quality, low count armies designed to lavish attention and time on each one. It's a company made up of people that got their footing at GW, trying to recapture what they feel made GW a great company back in the day, who have a clear focus on producing good (not exquisite), affordable plastic models to make huge games.

Kanluwen wrote:But I'll hold judgement until I see the humans. If they look like Cadians, I'll be disappointed. They could do something far more futuristic and go away from 'tradition' there. The ODST example that you and I had in Ramshackle's thread would go fantastic there.

The problem with this line of thought is, of course, that going away from "tradition" is another way of saying, going away from the one game system that a) the developers cut their teeth on, and b) is the far and away market leader in this field.

Heck, let's be honest here, a lot of people just want a cheaper version of 40k; why fight that market?

Buzzsaw wrote:Heck, let's be honest here, a lot of people just want a cheaper version of 40k; why fight that market?

Sometimes I wonder if thats what mantic really thinks

Buzzsaw wrote: With due respect, it's hard to take these complaints seriously. Partly it's because some of them address issues that arise out of ignorance of the alpha rules, but mostly, because they are flavor complaints, rather then mechanical complaints.

That is, they are not complaints that a unit is undercosted, or a mechanic leads to an infinite loop, or that movement rules need clarity in some respect; it's the complaint that the guy selling chocolate ice cream isn't selling butter almond.

What makes it hard to take seriously is that this is the Alpha; if you want X, Y and Z, pony up the $6 and tell the guys making the game directly. I mean, now is the time to speak up; the guy is deciding what flavors of ice cream to stock in the store and asking what people want to eat.

That said, in all honesty, you should be prepared for the obvious counter: the game you seem to be claiming to want already exists (it's Infinity). You want high interaction and reactive turns? Infinity. Mass Effect style miniatures that are "futuristic, innovative and compelling"? Infinity. (By the way, though this may seem flip, I am genuinely trying to point out Infinity as an alternative here, as it seems like both of you would be very happy with it, and it's a game that can never get too much exposure.)

Heck, let's be honest here, a lot of people just want a cheaper version of 40k; why fight that market?

I can't speak for the other guy here. However, I think you're missing the point of my post.

Mantic came online and "sold" their game, stating it would blow our minds and we should expect great things.....cue: speculation.

Mantic obviously wanted that speculation, and hype, in order to generate interest in their project. As part of that speculation, we as gamers began to dream up what we were hoping to see......so far, this isn't what I hoped for....period.

I know about Infinity, and have invested heavily in the game...I intend to keep doing so. I appreciate that it's there, however, like I said, I was hoping for something on a larger scale, that, while not being Infinity on a larger scale, would in some way follow that "feel"......it's just what I was hoping for.....hence my disappointment.

As far as paying my $6, well, how do you think I got a copy of the Alpha rules?!?

That said, do I think Alessio is going to change his game based on my "input".....I strongly doubt that. Unfortunately, I think this whole...."developed by gamers, for gamers" is a bit crap....it leads people to believe their anal retentive musings will be heard by the people investing money and time into a commercial project....that's just fantasy. In reality, the suggestions that add to what is already there will be considered....those that are too diverse will be ignored....a game can't please everyone. So when I see that my needs are so far from what has been presented, rather then broadcast that to Alessio in the vague hope that he will suddenly change tact and deliver the game I want, I'd rather just look elsewhere.

Having said all of that.....you're right, it's the Alpha stage.....alot can happen between here and final product. I will pay close attention and hope that either my misgivings were wrong, or that, perhaps the final product isn't that bad, and it's something I can play.....so, I'll wait and see what comes out the hat!

Guys, we're getting orks and dwarves in space. Surely it's a foregone conclusion that this is going to be a fantasy-in-space 40k'ish game.

Folks hoping for something else are only priming themselves for disapointment.

well if that is the case, the only people priming themselves for diappointment is the Mantic team.....and I really wish GW all the luck in burying them.....

Sorry, just my opinion.

Looks like mantic have stepped it up a gear. Hope there's some good stuff. I think it'll be harder to fit mantic models into 40K though, and that's what I normally use them for.

Mantic is and always has been a company that puts out kits for large armies at a low price first, rules come second. It took them what, a year before they started producing rules?

Eilif- while it's likely it will just be fantasy in space there is no point giving up until we see the finished product. If you heard what races were in mantic's fantasy range it would sound like WHFB however there are enough differences in the background and theme of the models that it manages to be is own games. I'm just hoping the same will happen for Warpath. From what we have seen of the concept sketchs it's looks nothing like 40k.

BrookM wrote:Mantic is and always has been a company that puts out kits for large armies at a low price first, rules come second. It took them what, a year before they started producing rules?

This may be true to their fantasy but right now it appears that they're putting a bit more emphasize on their sci fi

Personally I doubt it. But that's just me. I've got a feeling they'll be cranking out generic sci-fi races and units, again as a cheap way of getting a big army fast. Who knows, maybe their Squats are their variant of the Space Marine?

Buzzsaw wrote:
With due respect, it's hard to take these complaints seriously. Partly it's because some of them address issues that arise out of ignorance of the alpha rules, but mostly, because they are flavor complaints, rather then mechanical complaints.

Umm... I think I you may need to reread my post.

I take issue with the turn structure. You know, a mechanic.

As for the issues of turn length, I think it's a bit premature to comment that the game will drag and be a snoozefest before playing a game of it (or even reading the rules...),

Sorry, but the turns are self contained. During your turn I do nothing. In Kings of War, this works as (almost) everything is on movement trays. Now put down 100+ miniatures that are individually based and go at it. Just as boring of a wait as 40k with those model counts.

Heck, let's be honest here, a lot of people just want a cheaper version of 40k; why fight that market?

I'm totally cool with that. Doesn't mean I'm not disappointed with the lack of innovation here.

No what buzzsaw was saying does make sense. He was pointing out you aren't complaining that the mechanic has internal problems but that you don't like the mechanic. Saying the mechanic isn't balanced or has lots of holes is a valid reason to complain. The fact that you don't like the mechanic isn't. Warpath was always going to be a simple igougo game because that is the way mantic like their games. The details were unknown but if you listened to what mantic said you should have had a good idea on what to expect. Nothing in the Warpath rules is really unexpected.

Delephont wrote:

Buzzsaw wrote: With due respect, it's hard to take these complaints seriously. Partly it's because some of them address issues that arise out of ignorance of the alpha rules, but mostly, because they are flavor complaints, rather then mechanical complaints.

That is, they are not complaints that a unit is undercosted, or a mechanic leads to an infinite loop, or that movement rules need clarity in some respect; it's the complaint that the guy selling chocolate ice cream isn't selling butter almond.

What makes it hard to take seriously is that this is the Alpha; if you want X, Y and Z, pony up the $6 and tell the guys making the game directly. I mean, now is the time to speak up; the guy is deciding what flavors of ice cream to stock in the store and asking what people want to eat.

<snip>

I can't speak for the other guy here. However, I think you're missing the point of my post.

Mantic came online and "sold" their game, stating it would blow our minds and we should expect great things.....cue: speculation.

Mantic obviously wanted that speculation, and hype, in order to generate interest in their project. As part of that speculation, we as gamers began to dream up what we were hoping to see......so far, this isn't what I hoped for....period.

I know about Infinity, and have invested heavily in the game...I intend to keep doing so. I appreciate that it's there, however, like I said, I was hoping for something on a larger scale, that, while not being Infinity on a larger scale, would in some way follow that "feel"......it's just what I was hoping for.....hence my disappointment.

No offense, but I think the problem here is that your expectations and speculation were wildly at odds with what little we did know. I mean, you honestly saw


And


And you thought, hmmm, maybe we'll get "something along the lines of Mass Effect....i.e something futuristic, innovative and compelling"? Don't get me wrong, I totally understand being disappointed with not getting what you wanted, but you do have to be a little reflective that what you wanted was really unrealistic given the information.

Delephont wrote:That said, do I think Alessio is going to change his game based on my "input".....I strongly doubt that. Unfortunately, I think this whole...."developed by gamers, for gamers" is a bit crap....it leads people to believe their anal retentive musings will be heard by the people investing money and time into a commercial project....that's just fantasy. In reality, the suggestions that add to what is already there will be considered....those that are too diverse will be ignored....a game can't please everyone. So when I see that my needs are so far from what has been presented, rather then broadcast that to Alessio in the vague hope that he will suddenly change tact and deliver the game I want, I'd rather just look elsewhere.

Having said all of that.....you're right, it's the Alpha stage.....alot can happen between here and final product. I will pay close attention and hope that either my misgivings were wrong, or that, perhaps the final product isn't that bad, and it's something I can play.....so, I'll wait and see what comes out the hat!

See, here you lose me a bit: either you think that what you want is a commercially viable, interesting option, or you think what you want is just "anal retentive musings". If it's the former, it behooves you to get on the BoW forums for the Alpha and speak up! The worst that can happen is you get shot down by the other posters. On the other hand, if Mantic is agreeing with your opinion about... your opinion, I'm not honestly sure I can see reasonably being angry with them.

Let me be clear about something as well: I don't see playing Warpath really. All of the complaints (strict IgoUgo turns, excessive abstraction, Sci-Fantasy setting) resonate with me, which is why I am favorably inclined towards Infinity. But, my objections to the type of game aren't really problems with the game, any more then wanting vanilla is a problem with chocolate.

frozenwastes wrote:

Buzzsaw wrote:
With due respect, it's hard to take these complaints seriously. Partly it's because some of them address issues that arise out of ignorance of the alpha rules, but mostly, because they are flavor complaints, rather then mechanical complaints.

Umm... I think I you may need to reread my post.

I take issue with the turn structure. You know, a mechanic.

As for the issues of turn length, I think it's a bit premature to comment that the game will drag and be a snoozefest before playing a game of it (or even reading the rules...),

Sorry, but the turns are self contained. During your turn I do nothing. In Kings of War, this works as (almost) everything is on movement trays. Now put down 100+ miniatures that are individually based and go at it. Just as boring of a wait as 40k with those model counts.

This would be a one of the "issues that arise out of ignorance of the alpha rules"; moreover, in terms of flavor, you seem to have an odd notion that a high degree of specific interactivity is compatible with, in a nutshell, Apocalypse sized battles. Again, as I pointed out, if you take issue with the big army battle approach (which your statement "Combine this with their "building big armies" approach and Warpath is going to come across as a snooze-fest for a lot of people" leads one to believe), the import of your criticism seems to be you want something that was never in the offering.

frozenwastes wrote:

Heck, let's be honest here, a lot of people just want a cheaper version of 40k; why fight that market?

I'm totally cool with that. Doesn't mean I'm not disappointed with the lack of innovation here.

I'm very serious here: what did you really expect from the "building big armies" company?

Big armies mean either: really, really long games, or, streamlined rules with a lot of abstractions. They chose streamlined with abstractions, which I personally think is the better of the choices.

Put another way, I believe some of the best rules for table top games are the Warmachine/Hordes rules (Mk.II) put out by Privateer Press. But I also recognize that the depth, complexity and interest of those rules would be a nightmarish mis-match for a game where each side is intended to have a hundred models.

Warpath leans more to the AT-43 side of game-speed. I.e. it is still way faster than 40K without loosing that epic touch.

4M2A wrote:No what buzzsaw was saying does make sense. He was pointing out you aren't complaining that the mechanic has internal problems but that you don't like the mechanic. Saying the mechanic isn't balanced or has lots of holes is a valid reason to complain. The fact that you don't like the mechanic isn't. Warpath was always going to be a simple igougo game because that is the way mantic like their games. The details were unknown but if you listened to what mantic said you should have had a good idea on what to expect. Nothing in the Warpath rules is really unexpected.

Hold on, you're adding layers of complexity here where there are none. Saying you don't like a mech is just as valid as saying there are issues with it. The whole idea of the Alpha rules being put out was that people can "pick holes" in the game.

The alpha rules are there to find flaws in the rules. Being a very simple IGOUGO isn't a flaw, it's the intention.You may not like that mechanic but that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the game it's just that you aren't the target audience. It's understandable you complain but just keep in mind that it isn't a case of the game being bad.

If mantic comes with a sci-fi Fantasy game (and it will) it will not be like 40k, it will be lighter, funnier, with lots of jokes and less "grim darkness".

Lets not be innocent, mantic will do sci-fi compatible with GW, they know lots of people buy from them as an alternative for GW models.
I dont expect Space Marines, but orkz, eldars, dark eldars, Ig, and "army of he month". Maybe that is the reason why GW ordered his new "secrecy rules", after all, mantic released Orcs in the middle of their "orc week"...

And lets be fair, half of the people interested in Mantic sci-fi, expect GW alternatives for a better price ^^

Personally, i would be very happy with alternates for Assault Marines, but well, they dont exist yet...

Delephont wrote:

4M2A wrote:No what buzzsaw was saying does make sense. He was pointing out you aren't complaining that the mechanic has internal problems but that you don't like the mechanic. Saying the mechanic isn't balanced or has lots of holes is a valid reason to complain. The fact that you don't like the mechanic isn't. Warpath was always going to be a simple igougo game because that is the way mantic like their games. The details were unknown but if you listened to what mantic said you should have had a good idea on what to expect. Nothing in the Warpath rules is really unexpected.

Hold on, you're adding layers of complexity here where there are none. Saying you don't like a mech is just as valid as saying there are issues with it. The whole idea of the Alpha rules being put out was that people can "pick holes" in the game.

The problem is that the mechanic is a necessary compliment to the type of game: as I've said, there are better, more interactive rules sets, I just can't see them scaled up to this level.

As an aside, the "best rules for table top games" are pretty strict IGOUGO.

Buzzsaw wrote: And you thought, hmmm, maybe we'll get "something along the lines of Mass Effect....i.e something futuristic, innovative and compelling"? Don't get me wrong, I totally understand being disappointed with not getting what you wanted, but you do have to be a little reflective that what you wanted was really unrealistic given the information.

Those scribblings could have been anything, there were no grounds before to base much speculation on them......and that statement was backed up by Mantic themselves.

I don't really see how you can hold my point to ransom based on those drawings. Now we know a bit more "detail", I can see that what I was hoping for was not on Mantics agenda, that's fine. My "anger" with Mantic is that I feel they're wasting an opportunity to create somthing special by going for quick sales off the back of GW.

Now whether that feeling I have comes to pass, only time will tell.

Delephont wrote:

Buzzsaw wrote: And you thought, hmmm, maybe we'll get "something along the lines of Mass Effect....i.e something futuristic, innovative and compelling"? Don't get me wrong, I totally understand being disappointed with not getting what you wanted, but you do have to be a little reflective that what you wanted was really unrealistic given the information.

Those scribblings could have been anything, there were no grounds before to base much speculation on them......and that statement was backed up by Mantic themselves.

I don't really see how you can hold my point to ransom based on those drawings. Now we know a bit more "detail", I can see that what I was hoping for was not on Mantics agenda, that's fine. My "anger" with Mantic is that I feel they're wasting an opportunity to create somthing special by going for quick sales off the back of GW.

Now whether that feeling I have comes to pass, only time will tell.

Uhh... in the interview on Turn 8 where they conceded the pedigree of those scribbles, they also mentioned (in stage whisper) "space orks" and "space dwarves"...

Moving beyond that, you state they are "going for quick sales off the back of GW", but you ignore the (somewhat more benign) alternative: these guys (veterans of GW itself) are grounded in GW stylings and that style lines up with their own inclinations. Put another way, they like the "GW" style.

It's not merely that the alternative are more risky, with no trailblazers in those fields, but that the style that is successful is their own style.

Yes I can understand the disappointment when it comes to background and the races. It does look like they went for identical copies of 40k races and it would have been so much better if they could have made their own game.

However the rules are another matter. It was clear from the start the rules would be like KoW and aside from disliking the mechanic there isn't much wrong with them.

Buzzsaw wrote: Uhh... in the interview on Turn 8 where they conceded the pedigree of those scribbles, they also mentioned (in stage whisper) "space orks" and "space dwarves"...

Moving beyond that, you state they are "going for quick sales off the back of GW", but you ignore the (somewhat more benign) alternative: these guys (veterans of GW itself) are grounded in GW stylings and that style lines up with their own inclinations. Put another way, they like the "GW" style.

It's not merely that the alternative are more risky, with no trailblazers in those fields, but that the style that is successful is their own style.

Well, I guess the way they "launched" the whole affair it could have gone either way. Maybe I chose to treat the "stage whisper" as a joke, as taking it for truth would have turned me off immediately.

I don't buy the "benign alternative".....a kind of Freudian slip in desgn that leads to a clone of WH40K....and then the whole Mantic team turn to one another and giggle "I never saw that coming..." these guys know exactly what they are doing, and unfortunately, IMHO, it has less to do with design asthetics and much more to do with £$£$£

Delephont you also need to remeber that while a lot of people are looking for a new game there are equally (if not more) people who want mantic to just continue making miniatures for 40k / WHFB. While there will be some customers who are disappointed in not getting there own game, there would be just as many people disapointed if mantic completely did their own thing.

Making there own game would make them a lot more money if it worked out but making not GW models is a lot safer. Personaly I expect mantic to play it safe at first and then start branching out if they are successful- they have already mentioned they are moving away from warhammer fantasy in KoW.

I'm glad that they are releasing rules for their sci-fi miniature line, but I'll be more glad for cheaper 40K alternatives.

To paraphrase something I heard regarding oil prices:
The best solution for high GW prices is high GW prices.

In case you cant access the BoW website or something, here are the sketches they have on Warpath

The problem for Mantic is, if they come up with brand new sci-fi races there is a risk that they lose the more conservative part of the market.

But if they play safe they will be accused of coat tailing GW and being money grubbers.

Given the amount of investment required, it is understandable that Space dwarves and orkses will be released first. They will be popular.

Hopefully when the game settles down and sells well, then more innovative races will be released. There will be at least 8 iirc possibly more. It is far too early to dismiss out of hand completely/

Duncan_Idaho wrote:Warpath leans more to the AT-43 side of game-speed. I.e. it is still way faster than 40K without loosing that epic touch.

Uh oh...

kenshin620 wrote:In case you cant access the BoW website or something, here are the sketches they have on Warpath

Still, if it lets me buy lots of not-Squats that look this cool?

OK!