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Kanluwen wrote:To get it to melt requires a set of ridiculously specific circumstances(left in the car on a day with a temperature of 89 degrees Fahrenheit or higher and left in direct sunlight with no cloud cover at all inside of the original clamshell packaging to amplify the incoming light) that anyone would avoid anyways.

So you consider shopping in summer to be 'ridiculously specific circumstances'...?

The goon who posted the whole "MY GANDALF MELTED" thing seemingly retracted his statement and said that the "melt" on the model was in fact just the result of a miscast model to begin with.

Yeah, 'My model was just faulty' is so much more reassuring than 'My model was... er... faulty... Wait, what?

Kanluwen wrote:Then why aren't you flipping out at Apple, Nike, or any other bloody company out there that doesn't live up to their hype?

Apple's current advertising slogan here in Oz is (literally) 'If you don't have an iPhone, you don't have an iPhone...'

I think they're living up to their hype just fine. As it turns out, I indeed don't have an iPhone.

insaniak wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:To get it to melt requires a set of ridiculously specific circumstances(left in the car on a day with a temperature of 89 degrees Fahrenheit or higher and left in direct sunlight with no cloud cover at all inside of the original clamshell packaging to amplify the incoming light) that anyone would avoid anyways.

So you consider shopping in summer to be 'ridiculously specific circumstances'...?

Way to pick one specific point out.

It's not a case of "the model is being melted/warped by the heat". It's a case of the model is being melted/warped by prolonged, direct exposure with amplified light. It doesn't happen any other way.

The goon who posted the whole "MY GANDALF MELTED" thing seemingly retracted his statement and said that the "melt" on the model was in fact just the result of a miscast model to begin with.

Yeah, 'My model was just faulty' is so much more reassuring than 'My model was... er... faulty... Wait, what?

Did you read the last line of that post you're quoting?

Because it said that yes, the miscasts are unacceptable. But it's still not a model melting in conventional circumstances.

I could go out and say that my soldering iron causes forest fires.
Does that mean that my soldering iron causes forest fires?
Yes, if I leave it on for a few hours in a forest with dry brush and no rainfall.

Circumstances have to be "ridiculously stupid" for my statement to be true.

Kanluwen wrote:Then why aren't you flipping out at Apple, Nike, or any other bloody company out there that doesn't live up to their hype?

Apple's current advertising slogan here in Oz is (literally) 'If you don't have an iPhone, you don't have an iPhone...'

I think they're living up to their hype just fine. As it turns out, I indeed don't have an iPhone.

Yeah. Apple's about as brilliant as GW in many cases.

Kan you are just apologist to the end arnt ya , how cute.

Melting? sure someone lied about it.

But heat in the car + your army + army case left in the car .

You get both heat and pressure , sure your finecrap wont melt but it doesnt take a genius to figure out what happens.

Care to guess?

Grot 6 wrote:
Finecost is crap. Prove me wrong.

Thats it in a nutshell.


Show a Finecrap figure that someone owns that doesn't look meh, and stands up to the well rehersed talking points. Without hype, without pretty fawning over a turd.

No gimmicks, excuses, or doubletalk.

But.....there's plenty of decent pictures of Finecast miniatures that are what they are supposed to be.......I think everyone can agree that (ignoring price) when Finecast is done correctly it really works. I love metal figures, and if it wasn't for the price and the random QC I would have no problem adding Finecast to my collection.

It's not a case of "the model is being melted/warped by the heat". It's a case of the model is being melted/warped by prolonged, direct exposure with amplified light. It doesn't happen any other way.

Do we know that for a fact. Has anybody really done any testing? Can you guarantee that if I leave these on my desk by the window in the summer these are not going to melt. If direct summer sun hits my display case these are not going to melt?

I love metal figures, and if it wasn't for the price and the random QC I would have no problem adding Finecast to my collection.

It just seams strange to me that almost every independent site that I have seen with a review has a beat up model. Is it a conspiracy?

Andrew1975 wrote:

It's not a case of "the model is being melted/warped by the heat". It's a case of the model is being melted/warped by prolonged, direct exposure with amplified light. It doesn't happen any other way.

Do we know that for a fact. Has anybody really done any testing? Can you guarantee that if I leave these on my desk by the window in the summer these are not going to melt. If direct summer sun hits my display case these are not going to melt?

Of course we don't know for a fact. People use common sense when storing stuff, wouldn't you agree?

If you leave them in the car, will they melt?

What is there breaking point temperatures?

They are already coming out with warped, pitted,or miscast parts- WHY?


and....



Does anyone have a picture of a nondefective fine-grasp model?


Pretty straight forward.

No !@#$ing and moaning, no baying at the moon, or anything else. ( I'm not even going to throw in the obligatory dig at GW, either.)

Andrew1975 wrote:

It's not a case of "the model is being melted/warped by the heat". It's a case of the model is being melted/warped by prolonged, direct exposure with amplified light. It doesn't happen any other way.

Do we know that for a fact. Has anybody really done any testing? Can you guarantee that if I leave these on my desk by the window in the summer these are not going to melt. If direct summer sun hits my display case these are not going to melt?

That we dont know for sure, but sure what we do know is, thats plenty enough heat to bend the resins, enough to break off the paints along the process.

And to repeat myself:

Im not saying Finecast is a bad idea, im not saying if resin done right shouldn't replace metal.

What me and im sure many have been saying is, dont introduce Finecast till its actually ready. Work out the kinks first, GET IT RIGHT before you shout out to the world how superior it is when its not.
There is a good concept, and then there is the reality. I think the apologist are forcing themselves to look at this whole finecast issue via tunnel vision.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:

Andrew1975 wrote:

It's not a case of "the model is being melted/warped by the heat". It's a case of the model is being melted/warped by prolonged, direct exposure with amplified light. It doesn't happen any other way.

Do we know that for a fact. Has anybody really done any testing? Can you guarantee that if I leave these on my desk by the window in the summer these are not going to melt. If direct summer sun hits my display case these are not going to melt?

Of course we don't know for a fact. People use common sense when storing stuff, wouldn't you agree?

Leaving your warhammer stuff in car when you arnt playing when you are in the shopping mall?

Sure seems normal to me. What ? are you going to suggest the owners to drag it around?

Kanluwen wrote:

Andrew1975 wrote:

It's not a case of "the model is being melted/warped by the heat". It's a case of the model is being melted/warped by prolonged, direct exposure with amplified light. It doesn't happen any other way.

Do we know that for a fact. Has anybody really done any testing? Can you guarantee that if I leave these on my desk by the window in the summer these are not going to melt. If direct summer sun hits my display case these are not going to melt?

Of course we don't know for a fact. People use common sense when storing stuff, wouldn't you agree?

Common sense. I have display case that gets direct sunlight, what am I supposed to do black out my gaming room? I've never had problems with minis melting in the past so tell me what isnot common sense about that? Common sense would be not releasing crap until you have figured out if it is actually usable.

Does anyone have a picture of a nondefective fine-grasp model?

Yeah just go to the finecast thread on this site, there are a few. It's not all bad, it's just that it's not all good like GW promised and priced as such.

Andrew1975 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Andrew1975 wrote:

It's not a case of "the model is being melted/warped by the heat". It's a case of the model is being melted/warped by prolonged, direct exposure with amplified light. It doesn't happen any other way.

Do we know that for a fact. Has anybody really done any testing? Can you guarantee that if I leave these on my desk by the window in the summer these are not going to melt. If direct summer sun hits my display case these are not going to melt?

Of course we don't know for a fact. People use common sense when storing stuff, wouldn't you agree?

Common sense. I have display case that gets direct sunlight, what am I supposed to do black out my gaming room? I've never had problems with minis melting in the past so tell me what isn't common sense about that?

If it's a display case with painted models that are varnished, you're going to be fine.

Bare material is far more susceptible to these kinds of shenanigans.

Common sense would be not releasing crap until you have figured out if it is actually usable.

Common sense would also be to sort out the wheat from the chaff in terms of the criticisms leveled at the material, which is used by two other companies.

So where's the reports of Mantic or Privateer Press models "melting" in the sunlight?

Does anyone have a picture of a nondefective fine-grasp model?

Yeah just go to the finecast thread on this site, there are a few. It's not all bad, it's just that it's not all good like GW promised and priced as such.

Which isn't the same as saying "THE LINE IS A MASSIVE FLOP!" or "OH MY GOD THEY LIED TO US!".

Is it acceptable? No. Not by a long shot. But it's not like GW is the only company to deliver the moon and instead give you a picture of the moon.

Andrew1975 wrote:Common sense. I have display case that gets direct sunlight, what am I supposed to do black out my gaming room? I've never had problems with minis melting in the past so tell me what isnot common sense about that? Common sense would be not releasing crap until you have figured out if it is actually usable.

Andrew, has your metal minis ever melted or warped even in direct sunlight or extreme summer heat? ( bet nope )
has your plastic ever get warped along with your metals? (bet nope too )


Have your GW resins? ( bet yes )

I agree with you, the answer is extremely clear. But according to kanluwen he dont think leaving the resin out in the open is considered common sense.
But thats the whole issue isnt it that he seems to miss ( or ignore on purpose ) , is GW should take in consideration in a material's durability as well ( especially ones that hasnt showed much improvement )

See like some models are just trash how they made it out to shipping is really sad. Other models aren't too bad still would be pissed if i got a model and there was some thing wrong with it.

Kanluwen wrote: Bare material is far more susceptible to these kinds of shenanigans.

You really cant get the point can you. No paint or varnish is going to be safe when resin is warped.
When it warps during the heat the paint will crack off. Its not some fancy chemical reaction that makes paint magically fall off,
its acrylic paints cant bend along without cracking.

Kanluwen wrote: Common sense would also be to sort out the wheat from the chaff in terms of the criticisms leveled at the material, which is used by two other companies.
So where's the reports of Mantic or Privateer Press models "melting" in the sunlight?

Hey good question, ya where IS the reports of mantics warping and melting? Or there hasnt been any?
Why? If a small company like mantic can do their resins right, why not GW? Thanks for bringing that up!

-Removed by insaniak. Keep it civil.-

Kanluwen wrote:

insaniak wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:To get it to melt requires a set of ridiculously specific circumstances(left in the car on a day with a temperature of 89 degrees Fahrenheit or higher and left in direct sunlight with no cloud cover at all inside of the original clamshell packaging to amplify the incoming light) that anyone would avoid anyways.

So you consider shopping in summer to be 'ridiculously specific circumstances'...?

Way to pick one specific point out.

It's not a case of "the model is being melted/warped by the heat". It's a case of the model is being melted/warped by prolonged, direct exposure with amplified light. It doesn't happen any other way.

He is quoting you directly. Leaving the item in a car on a day with a temperature of 89 degrees or higher is not a "ridiculously specific circumstance". I live in fething Texas, we've had days with 105 degrees last week.

Omegus wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

insaniak wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:To get it to melt requires a set of ridiculously specific circumstances(left in the car on a day with a temperature of 89 degrees Fahrenheit or higher and left in direct sunlight with no cloud cover at all inside of the original clamshell packaging to amplify the incoming light) that anyone would avoid anyways.

So you consider shopping in summer to be 'ridiculously specific circumstances'...?

Way to pick one specific point out.

It's not a case of "the model is being melted/warped by the heat". It's a case of the model is being melted/warped by prolonged, direct exposure with amplified light. It doesn't happen any other way.

He is quoting you directly. Leaving the item in a car on a day with a temperature of 89 degrees or higher is not a "ridiculously specific circumstance". I live in fething Texas, we've had days with 105 degrees last week.

Except as I stated, the temperature alone isn't going to cause a melt.
I've got resin kits stored in my attic, which gets up to 102 degrees on 89 degree days here in NC(It's poorly ventilated, and heat rises). I can go pull any one of them out and not one will have an issue.

Simply being in heated air will not cause a problem.

Kanluwen wrote:Simply being in heated air will not cause a problem.

You preach about common sense, yet you do not apply ANY common sense to your posts.

The complaints are about transporting your army during hot days which is left in the car. ( which is common and long months even here in Canada )
You speak of resin kits been ok in you attic.

Well you see, too bad most of the CONTENTS we carry are not un built resin kits. But are in fact ( very common )
to be Assembled and PAINTED resin. which is the one most susceptible to the heat. Why? because thats when we carry our PAINTED armies
in our PROTECTIVE CASE , which is when the pressure of the foam +the HEAT causes the warps the material.

You are been obtuse on purpose and dodging the situation.

Yes, we all know resin can be manufactured in such a way that heat is not an issue. That's why there are no reports of Mantic or Privateer or even Forge World resin warping under heat. We do, however, have reports of such for Finecast resin, which is reported to be much softer.

But hey, why not take some of your Finecast models, and stick them up in the attic and see what happens. Then this argument can be put to rest. Of course, I understand if you don't want to risk your $30 model warping into goo.

Look I've never has a problem with Forgeworld stuff melting after I was done with it, but that is a differet harder resin. I actually like that I can heat it up and bend it, but it has never wilted on its own.As for Mantic, I don't know which resin they are using, but I haven't heard of problems from them. I would doubt it's the same stuff as finecast because Mantic actually dropped the price with their resin product by half, GW raised it so I'm going to guess its the older resin tech, not this new plastic resin. I could be wrong.

Omegus wrote:Yes, we all know resin can be manufactured in such a way that heat is not an issue. That's why there are no reports of Mantic or Privateer or even Forge World resin warping under heat. We do, however, have reports of such for Finecast resin, which is reported to be much softer.

But hey, why not take some of your Finecast models, and stick them up in the attic and see what happens. Then this argument can be put to rest. Of course, I understand if you don't want to risk your $30 model warping into goo.

If I actually had any Finecast, sure I would.

But even if I did have any Finecast and performed that, there'd still be accusations of "Well you didn't do it right, you put it in a place where the test was guaranteed to prove the answer YOU wanted it to prove!".

Well, you are aware that all delivery to stores is done in UPS delivery cars, dark painted cars that stand in the open in summer. It's getting really hot in there. So the whole delivery chain is compromised in summer.
And English summer was enough to melt Finecast in one GW shop rack behind a Southern window.

Omegus wrote:The iPad 2 totally lived up to the hype, and after going through three android devices, I curse the day I had my iPhone stolen. Waiting for the next release (assuming to coincide with iOS 5), so I can finally take a hammer to this droid x like I've wanted to for so very long.

No doubt about that. I'm not normally an Apple user (Desktop PC still)----but I definitely think the IPad 2 is all they've said it would be.



On topic, I would love to see the way they are molding their FineCast models. Between silicone mold being left in the final product---to mold release bubbles being present on the product---to obvious air bubbles being trapped---well that's alarming because they are all different issues caused by different steps in the process. The melting is rather worrisome too---as that can either be caused by A) Improper mixing of the resin agents or B) The resin agent itself simply not having high tolerances.

Kroothawk wrote:Well, you are aware that all delivery to stores is done in UPS delivery cars, dark painted cars that stand in the open in summer.

Incorrect assumptions, but that never stopped you before.

It's getting really hot in there. So the whole delivery chain is compromised in summer.

Then explain Mikhaila's stock of pretty much perfect models?

And English summer was enough to melt Finecast in one GW shop rack behind a Southern window.

Prove it. Pictures.

Because that sounds more like the same garbage that came out of the guy who claimed his Gandalf "melted" on his window sill.

And yes. I did mean to use "assumptions". UPS trucks don't "stand in the open" in summer. They roll up the door on the back when making deliveries, or more often than not just park and walk into the back from the front.

Kanluwen wrote:If I actually had any Finecast, sure I would.

But even if I did have any Finecast and performed that, there'd still be accusations of "Well you didn't do it right, you put it in a place where the test was guaranteed to prove the answer YOU wanted it to prove!".

So basically, you're talking out of your ass and being obtuse on purpose. Okay, good to know, we can all ignore you in peace now (something we should have probably done 4 pages ago).

I have seen multiple instances of anecdotal reports of GW resin warping. Until there is absolute confirmation that is not the case, that's enough to put me off finecast even if they weren't miscast 50% of the time.

Kanluwen wrote:But even if I did have any Finecast and performed that, there'd still be accusations of "Well you didn't do it right, you put it in a place where the test was guaranteed to prove the answer YOU wanted it to prove!".

Ya you are right, i for one i will accuse of that , but not without good reasons. A prime example?

You compare leaving a resin kit in your attic vs leaving a finecast sandwiched / squished in GW foam case in the heat.

Lets see direct comparison:

1) You left the pressure out which is a huge factor.

2) You left the fact that paints will not cope with the warping , wihch again is a huge factor as thats when its COMMON for people to leave them in the PROTECTIVE case to begin with.
which is way different than an untouched resin kit.

Omegus wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:If I actually had any Finecast, sure I would.

But even if I did have any Finecast and performed that, there'd still be accusations of "Well you didn't do it right, you put it in a place where the test was guaranteed to prove the answer YOU wanted it to prove!".

So basically, you're talking out of your ass and being obtuse on purpose. Okay, good to know, we can all ignore you in peace now (something we should have probably done 4 pages ago).

So basically, you're nothing but someone looking for a reason to complain and try to pick a fight with someone trying to inject some much needed logic into a situation that is constantly being driven by emotion.
I'm shocked. Really, I am.

You asked me to put a piece of Finecast in my attic. I said I would if I had any.
I've got no pieces that I actually want or need for my armies(Dark Angels Successor, Imperial Guard, and Fantasy Empire) that are currently available in Finecast or that I do not already own in metal.
I could, if you want, go put a metal Techmarine in the attic, but that wouldn't prove anything now would it?

I have seen multiple instances of anecdotal reports of GW resin warping. Until there is absolute confirmation that is not the case, that's enough to put me off finecast even if they weren't miscast 50% of the time.

All resin can warp.

There's been only ONE report of a finecast model "melting", and the report was a guy overexaggerating.

Do we have any solid, documented evidence that Finecast does in fact "melt" or distort at 89 degrees F, or did that number come from the Department of Made Up Statistics?

To really test it, I think we'd need to get a pair of plastic minis, and a pair of Finecast minis, paint one of each, leave the other ones unpainted, and put them in an army case, in a trunk, on a hot day, ideally with a remote thermometer in there. My understanding is that painted plastic minis left in a trunk all day in someplace like Arizona are going to be ruined, so that Finecast also would be ruined in such a condition is not a negative. The real question is, are they more susceptible to this - do they sag\droop\soften\melt at a significantly lower temperature then the plastics? I don't think anyone knows this yet.

The temperature issue is questionable at this point in time. Since there are other, less debatable problems with Finecast perhaps we should stick with the less-ambiguous topic at hand until there is real evidence of the above, at which point a new post should be made discussing it.

Ouze wrote:Do we have any solid, documented evidence that Finecast does in fact "melt" or distort at 89 degrees F, or did that number come from the Department of Made Up Statistics?

That was more me guessing. The guy who showed off his "melted" Gandalf said that it was like 40-50 degrees Celsius, and I figured 89 degrees+ F wouldn't be too unreasonable.
Like you said in the next part...

To really test it, I think we'd need to get a pair of plastic minis, and a pair of Finecast minis, paint one of each, leave the other ones unpainted, and put them in an army case, in a trunk, on a hot day, ideally with a remote thermometer in there. My understanding is that painted plastic minis left in a trunk all day in someplace like Arizona are going to be ruined, so that Finecast also would be ruined in such a condition is not a negative. The real question is, are they more susceptible to this - do they sag\droop\soften\melt at a significantly lower temperature then the plastics? I don't think anyone knows this yet.

The temperature issue is questionable at this point in time. Since there are other, less debatable problems with Finecast perhaps we should stick with the less-ambiguous topic at hand until there is real evidence of the above, at which point a new post should be made discussing it.

If someone wants to run that test, be my guest.

Ouze wrote:perhaps we should stick with the less-ambiguous topic at hand until there is real evidence of the above, at which point a new post should be made discussing it.

You are right, this topic seems ambiguous at first glance , but only because finecast has so many present problems , agreed?

The only reason its talking about warping atm is because kanluwen deflected the discussion away from the miscasts. Intended or not, hmm! good question.

Kanluwen wrote:
If someone wants to run that test, be my guest.

You do it. For someone with so much faith ( enough to go on for so many pages )
You should have no fear of testing it. And since you find GW to be cheap , just go out and buy a few.

Others that have all the doubt, why should we be doing the test?

Kanluwen wrote:So basically, you're nothing but someone looking for a reason to complain and try to pick a fight with someone trying to inject some much needed logic into a situation that is constantly being driven by emotion.
I'm shocked. Really, I am.

You'll note I haven't been complaining in this thread. I have stated that this rate of failure, even if it is exaggerated twice over, is unacceptable for a product as hyped and expensive as GW miniatures, especially when no such issues were present in plastic or metal models. I then stated that even if that wasn't the case, I am still skeptical about Finecast until I know for sure it won't melt if I leave it in the trunk for a couple of hours. You retorted that this would only happen in "ridiculously specific circumstances" such as leaving it in the car at temperatures of 89 degrees or higher. But hey, even if Finecast isn't warping in the sun, you're displaying an admirable skill at warping reality and what people are actually saying. Kudos.

Omegus wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:So basically, you're nothing but someone looking for a reason to complain and try to pick a fight with someone trying to inject some much needed logic into a situation that is constantly being driven by emotion.
I'm shocked. Really, I am.

You'll note I haven't been complaining in this thread. I have stated that this rate of failure, even if it is exaggerated twice over, is unacceptable for a product as hyped and expensive as GW miniatures, especially when no such issues were present in plastic or metal models.

And again, like I said: there's plenty of products that don't live up to the hype. GW is not alone in this.

If the rate of failure is in fact true and across the board(which it seemingly is not, with somehow Wayland Games being the only one I can honestly think of that is reporting a 55% failure rate in their entire stock), then yes. It's unacceptable--period.

I then stated that even if that wasn't the case, I am still skeptical about Finecast until I know for sure it won't melt if I leave it in the trunk for a couple of hours. You retorted that this would only happen in "ridiculously specific circumstances" such as leaving it in the car at temperatures of 89 degrees or higher.

If you're going to quote me, quote me properly or don't quote me at all.
It would require, feasibly to replicate the circumstances of the "melting" model(which was then renounced by the original owner as not melted, but miscast) a car of 89 degrees+, the model to be still inside of its clamshell packaging, and in direct sunlight for the course of several hours.

But hey, even if Finecast isn't warping in the sun, you're displaying an admirable skill at warping reality and what people are actually saying. Kudos.

Warping and melting are not interchangeable terms. Just like a wolf in sheep's skin clothing is not a sheep.
"Warping" simply is the parts sagging or bending.
"Melting" is exactly what you think it is--a distortion of the model's details causing the parts to run together.