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Kanluwen wrote:And again, like I said: there's plenty of products that don't live up to the hype. GW is not alone in this.

So basically, what you're saying is: "It's not fair to call GW out for selling you garbage while calling it gold, because other companies do the same thing."

But hey, even if Finecast isn't warping in the sun, you're displaying an admirable skill at warping reality and what people are actually saying. Kudos.

Warping and melting are not interchangeable terms. Just like a wolf in sheep's skin clothing is not a sheep.
"Warping" simply is the parts sagging or bending.
"Melting" is exactly what you think it is--a distortion of the model's details causing the parts to run together.

Now you are playing semantics Kanners

Put it another way
"I left Shadowfax on the window sill and now he is Shadow f*xd!"

Got to give kanluwen credit for selective reading and ignoring the main points.

Its like someone plugging their ears and shouting nonono you are wrong im right.
Which doesnt make them right, but sure sounds right in their own head.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Now you are playing semantics Kanners

Put it another way
"I left Shadowfax on the window sill and now he is Shadow f*xd!"

No, I'm really not.
The person who wrote that then retracted their statement, saying that there had been the flaw in question to begin with.
As in the case was really simply "I left Shadow f*xd on the window sill, and now he is still Shadow f*xd!".

Putting it simply: leaving a turd in the sun still leaves you with a turd afterwards.

And as a sidenote:
It's not "playing with semantics" to say that warping does not equal melting. The two are not the same, by any stretch of the imagination.
To use an example:
You don't say that polystyrene cement "warps" the plastic together. It "melts" the plastic together.

You seein' the logic I'm laying down here Chibi?

*munches popcorn*

So I'm guessing Fetterkey tagged out and Kan took his place? All we have to do is wait for Redbeard and Mystery to arrive and we'll have ourselves a little hand-waving quartet!

Net result one knackered Shadowfax fit only to be rendered for cat food and glue

Kanluwen wrote:Way to pick one specific point out.

I wasn't picking out one specific point. This:
"left in the car on a day with a temperature of 89 degrees Fahrenheit or higher and left in direct sunlight with no cloud cover at all inside of the original clamshell packaging to amplify the incoming light"
...is the potential result of shopping on a summer's day here in Oz. For that matter, for large chunks of the country, it's the potential result of shopping on a spring or autumn day, and possibly the occasional winter's day as well.

This isn't some sort of bizarre, never-going-to-actually-happen set of conditions.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Net result one knackered Shadowfax fit only to be rendered for cat food and glue

Pretty much, Chibster.

Like Ouze said though, it'd be nice to see what they're doing to correct the issue.

Fetterkey wrote:

Again, there's your problem-- the Internet has a long tradition of hating on GW wherever possible blah blah blah.

I don't recall seeing endless threads about the quality of the plastics, in fact most of the new releases have had glowing reviews aside from prices and I've never had any problems with miscast plastics aside from one set which was missing the same piece from each sprue (and which GW replaced).
There have been some grumblings about the poor fit of some of the metal kits, the thunderfire canon I recall being widely criticized because of how it went together but nothing like the problems with this new "finecast" stuff.
Why is it that so many stories and pictures are popping up over this product? A conspiracy to hurt GW, the company that the complainers are buying all these models from? Sure that makes sense, let's buy models from a company we hate and then complain about them to make them really suffer, utter bollocks. I note on those pictures with obvious faults that there were plenty of secondary holes and indents not highlighted, I suspect many of those models that are being accepted would be considered substandard by myself and others, people need to complain more.
Heck, I was on a trade site lastnight looking at the feedback for this guy that sells firewood and he only has 5% negative feedback, yet reading the comments by those that gave him positive feedback shows that they weren't happy with the sodden unburnable wood that he was selling yet stupidly gave him the thumbs up simply for delivering it on time. I'm sure the same is happening with finecast, that many people are too ignorant or nice to send faulty casts back.

Kanluwen wrote:[To use an example:
You don't say that polystyrene cement "warps" the plastic together. It "melts" the plastic together.

Thats the freaking point. Even if it didnt MELT like the guy originally claimed.

It'll still WARP. Which is something metal definitely didnt have an issue with.

Delephont wrote:
Ok, being balanced about things, I will admit you have a point. I think, in light of recent event's people have a huge desire to see GW fail, and if Finecast is the vehicle for that failure, well then so be it. I do think people are now being overly critical about GW.....point in case, I recently attempted the jump to Privateer Press Warmachine and purchased a starter box for Cryx, the plastic figures inside were TERRIBLE, you guys want to complain about Finecast? you aint seen anything, the detailing on these things were practically non existant....this was genuine CRAP....

I personally have avoided the plastic from PP as much as possible. I truely prefer metal. However, I got second hand a cyclone, already assembled, bare plastic/resin......and it looks pretty good. Still not enough to presuade me to jump fully to their plastic, but its not as bad as I thought. Details were the same as the ironclads I have. Perhaps a bad box from you?

So, I posted my findings, I didn't make a big song and dance about it, but I wanted to see what others thought........not a peep! Now, could it be I was the only person in the world, or even the only person on Dakka to have bought a Cryx starter set and found the same level of "quality" in these sculpts....I doubt it, and yet, where was the same level of "hate" that you see for GW?

Fast forward to GW, and on the flip side, I can see why people are targeting GW for their recently "activity", but more to the point, GW have come forward and have made statements and price increases based on the quality of their products.....that being, that their products are the "best in the world" or words to that effect.....while it may be part of the modelling hobby to GS parts, and "fix" minor issues, when you have such statements rammed down your throat, and a price increase to boot, you feel less inclined to be charitable with your time and modelling skills.

I have personally bought resin and metal miniatures from companies that make no claims to be best in the market with their miniatures, and yet, their products far outstrip those who do claim to be the best. I've bought resins from Studio McVey, which in every case, needed nothing doing to them! I've likewise bought minis from Corvus Belli that had very little flash, and certainly didn't need GS to fill the gaps......both of these companies lack the financial backing and resources of GW, and yet produce a better product.....

This is the reason why your arguments are not being well recieved. If GW's attitude wasn't as it is, no doubt much of what they do (in quality terms) would be overlooked (see my comments on PP above) such as it is, GW is simply reaping what it has sown.

Its not just that. There's a level of real difference in companies, when you deal with them. PP will come out and explain items, and a variety of commentary. While GW.....is unapproachabl;e, shut down their forum, gone to defcon 1 on secrecy and a variety of other items. I'm sure coveis bell is just approachable, or near so. Same with McVey studios. Its why folks will cut some companies slack, where GW they will not.

There is no ambiguity, the first report that come about about resin melting in a car is already recorded on past posts, after that the gandalf fella that retracted after the ton of debris he got for posting that review and in that same debate someone reported that a GW store had some Fcasts on display facing store window and melted... I can ignore 1 or 2 but 3 reports on the same subject? with what purpose and what the hell of a coincidence people are reporting the exact same problem if they are only products of their imagination...

But forget my country average summer, or UPS ( because, you know, every mail delivery in the world is ups right? and no mail man leaves the box at your door in the sun RIGHT?)... The point here is that Wayland crunched some numbers and for sure the level of harassment and the discontent of clientelle does not justify to take the blame of something that its not their fault... I can only imagine the nigthmare of 10% returns now imagine something around 50% and the dent it will do to the profit margins... Fine cast is NOT something you can buy online and that alone speaks for the nature of this mediocre product and its ratio of miscasts.

I do hope GW opens their eyes because this is not something they can hide under the carpet this is the kind of thing that makes people unsure of the quality level and at these price tags there's no tolerance for these level os mistakes... But hey mistakes happen, toyota etc... the question is, how are they handled and rectified?

I like models, from ANY one, so no hater or fanboy here but this fiasco will be tattooed on GW forehead for a long time and if they don't make this right very fast they will be the motive of ridicule from anyone in the industry.

insaniak wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Way to pick one specific point out.

I wasn't picking out one specific point. This:
"left in the car on a day with a temperature of 89 degrees Fahrenheit or higher and left in direct sunlight with no cloud cover at all inside of the original clamshell packaging to amplify the incoming light"
...is the potential result of shopping on a summer's day here in Oz. For that matter, for large chunks of the country, it's the potential result of shopping on a spring or autumn day, and possibly the occasional winter's day as well.

This isn't some sort of bizarre, never-going-to-actually-happen set of conditions.

You actually did pick out one specific point. You picked out the "car on a day with a temperature of 89 degrees F or higher".

This isn't an equation where there's only one single variable to reach the answer. It's a multi-variable equation.
How many people just sling things into their backseat, full onto the window directly pumping light on them for hours at a time? I can't speak for you, but when I put stuff into my car during multiple trip shopping excursions, the stuff gets put on the floor or in such a way that it ends up going under the front seat.

There's also usually a paper/plastic/recycled cardboard bag that my stuff gets put into (but that is more because I don't stop and buy a single item if I go to a shop) which would even more throw off the "direct sunlight".

That is playing with semantics though, so I'll just say that I guess it will entirely depend on situations that I can't predict.

Kanluwen wrote:And as a sidenote:
It's not "playing with semantics" to say that warping does not equal melting. The two are not the same, by any stretch of the imagination.
To use an example:
You don't say that polystyrene cement "warps" the plastic together. It "melts" the plastic together.

You seein' the logic I'm laying down here Chibi?

Considering "melting" is when something is liquefied by exposure to heat, and "warping" is when something is bent or twisted out of shape... in this case by heat... it's the same damn thing. If you hold a model over a lighter for a couple of minutes, and the end result is a misshapen hunk of plastic, it could be accurately described as melted or warped. The main point is that the model is ruined by the heat. You are avoiding the main issue by focusing on word choice. You are being pedantic at best, purposefully obtuse at worst.

And again, your whole argument seems to be "don't complain about GW's bad product because other companies also made bad products". Well, that doesn't fly either, because other companies produce resin models and don't have anywhere near the QC issues displayed by Finecast, and they also aren't claiming their product as "something so special in fact that it's nothing less than a new era in wargaming... the next step in the evolution in tabletop miniatures wargaming...no other miniatures that exist of this quality and manufactured on this scale in the world." In this case, you are an apologist at best, a lickspittle at worst.

Kanluwen wrote:You actually did pick out one specific point. You picked out the "car on a day with a temperature of 89 degrees F or higher".

This isn't an equation where there's only one single variable to reach the answer. It's a multi-variable equation.
How many people just sling things into their backseat, full onto the window directly pumping light on them for hours at a time? I can't speak for you, but when I put stuff into my car during multiple trip shopping excursions, the stuff gets put on the floor or in such a way that it ends up going under the front seat.

There's also usually a paper/plastic/recycled cardboard bag that my stuff gets put into (but that is more because I don't stop and buy a single item if I go to a shop) which would even more throw off the "direct sunlight".

That is playing with semantics though, so I'll just say that I guess it will entirely depend on situations that I can't predict.

Ohhh boy , i have never seen anyone posting so many contradicting things in one same thread. SO HERE WE GO!

First, the thing i just quoted, one can safely assume from your tone, that you believe the only heat capable of the damaging situation is direct light?

Which is funny, because as i recall , you used an example of your attic to prove the point that heat shouldnt be an issue?

So are you saying your attic doesnt have a roof? or you are been obtuse on purpose again?

Delephont wrote:point in case, I recently attempted the jump to Privateer Press Warmachine and purchased a starter box for Cryx, the plastic figures inside were TERRIBLE, you guys want to complain about Finecast? you aint seen anything, the detailing on these things were practically non existant....this was genuine CRAP....

Odd. My experience (bought the Khador starter and a box of Rippers) was the exact opposite. I'm extremely impressed with them.

Kanluwen wrote:You actually did pick out one specific point. You picked out the "car on a day with a temperature of 89 degrees F or higher".

Go have another look at my post. I did no such thing.

How many people just sling things into their backseat, full onto the window directly pumping light on them for hours at a time?

That would be most people, on a guess.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Meanwhile, now would seem like an opportune time to ask everyone to just settle down a little. The fact that someone has a different opinion to your own isn't the end of the world, no matter how much you may disagree with them. Keep it civil.

Omegus wrote:
Considering "melting" is when something is liquefied by exposure to heat, and "warping" is when something is bent or twisted out of shape... in this case by heat... it's the same damn thing. If you hold a model over a lighter for a couple of minutes, and the end result is a misshapen hunk of plastic, it could be accurately described as melted or warped. The main point is that the model is ruined by the heat. You are avoiding the main issue by focusing on word choice. You are being pedantic at best, purposefully obtuse at worst.

You are again, absolutely correct.
As the internal energy of a substance is increased, typically by the application of heat or pressure, resulting in a rise of its temperature to the melting point, at which the rigid ordering of molecular entities in the solid breaks down to a less-ordered state and the solid liquefies.

The warping and melting while visually different, behaves on same principal. The broken down of molecule bonds due to heat and pressure. ( which has been mentioned over and over again in this thread )

Anyone ( I'm sure there is) know the type of resin GW uses in finecast?
Trying to discover at what temp. various resins begin to warp/soften and if those temps are likely to occur within an enclosed vehicle.

Just remembered that there are also some reports of Finecasts thin pointy parts like spears etc snapping extremely easy ( thats another problem of going from minis projected to metal cast to resin cast ) now multiply this for the number of finecasts you will need in your armies... I can understand a resin for display or one special model that you need to take extra care but full units? Just not miniatures for gaming...

Tell that to my DKoK. I've snapped quite a few lasguns. :<

FITZZ wrote: Anyone ( I'm sure there is) know the type of resin GW uses in finecast?
Trying to discover at what temp. various resins begin to warp/soften and if those temps are likely to occur within an enclosed vehicle.

That's a good point, although it may not be as simple as that. From some of the pictures showing bubbling (Looks like boiling on the surface)---and the reports of the resin melting (Or as one put it, slimed)----that may actually be improper mixing of the resin materials. Which would explain why some do it---and some do not.

If you improperly mix a two part resin---then the resin will sweat over time---and that sweating is exacerbated by heat. Given the Gandalf example and how he stated it was a bad cast to begin with with those boil marks---I'm leaning towards GW having mixing problems with their resin (Pouring too quickly before properly mixed or the mixing ratio being off). Don't know though---it would be useful to see the specs on their resin mixture---but I doubt that's coming anytime soon .


RE: Privateer Press plastic---I'll simple echo insaniak here and state I've been nothing but impressed. Next to MaxMini---that's the fewest mold lines I've seen on any resin casts. There essentially were none, which means their molding department must make some really tight/professional molds.

Omegus wrote:Tell that to my DKoK. I've snapped quite a few lasguns. :<

Exactly, but in that case (a fw army) it was like a alternative option you took to field it but the mainstream ( gw armies) filled the bill... today with all the finecasts its not a option you choose to take, its imposed on you if you want to play those games. I predict a all new level of frustration just transporting these resins...

NAVARRO wrote:

Omegus wrote:Tell that to my DKoK. I've snapped quite a few lasguns. :<

Exactly, but in that case (a fw army) it was like a alternative option you took to field it but the mainstream ( gw armies) filled the bill... today with all the finecasts its not a option you choose to take, its imposed on you if you want to play those games. I predict a all new level of frustration just transporting these resins...

Your core is still going to be plastic for the most part though. Well unless you are eldar.

Is it safe for me to say, even from both sides of the argument.

That Finecast , as good as the concept is , still needs lots of work to be done before it turns into what It Intends To be.

All this argument back and forth will not change that current ultimate fact.

LunaHound wrote:Is it safe for me to say, even from both sides of the argument.

That Finecast , as good as the concept is , still needs lots of work to be done before it turns into what It Intends To be.

All this argument back and forth will not change that current ultimate fact.

This is definitely true. Finecast isnt going anywhere, and it will get better. The big problem, though, is that GW should have done "lots of work" behind the scenes, and we should be seeing finecast when its been fine tuned.

cadbren wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:

Again, there's your problem-- the Internet has a long tradition of hating on GW wherever possible blah blah blah.

I don't recall seeing endless threads about the quality of the plastics, in fact most of the new releases have had glowing reviews aside from prices and I've never had any problems with miscast plastics aside from one set which was missing the same piece from each sprue (and which GW replaced).

That's because the plastics are so clearly objectively better than their predecessors that that sort of criticism would fall flat on its face-- and even still, I've seen people complaining even about popular kits like the new Grey Knights!

cadbren wrote:There have been some grumblings about the poor fit of some of the metal kits, the thunderfire canon I recall being widely criticized because of how it went together but nothing like the problems with this new "finecast" stuff.

I have two Thunderfire Cannons, and I will say right now that they are awful models (Techmarine aside). They are terrible. Most reported Finecast problems I've seen are nothing in comparison to the problems I've had with those.

cadbren wrote:Why is it that so many stories and pictures are popping up over this product? A conspiracy to hurt GW, the company that the complainers are buying all these models from? Sure that makes sense, let's buy models from a company we hate and then complain about them to make them really suffer, utter bollocks.

Nah. Lots of people just like complaining, especially online where you're not looking someone in the eye and it's unlikely that they'll have a chance to reply. Further, GW is one of those organizations that, for whatever reason, people love to hate. When you see a GW product that doesn't have complaints about it, that just means they've hit one out of the park (Dark Eldar).

When you see a GW product that doesn't have complaints about it, that just means they've hit one out of the park (Dark Eldar).

But you speak like they hit one out of the park with finecast. Clearly not the case. More like a foul ball. The plastic Dark Eldar are great. I've already seen issues with the Dark Eldar finecast though. You like GW are trying to push the failings of this product onto the customers.

This is yours and Kan attitude.
"Well what do you expect, did you think you could take it out of the blister and paint it, sure GW marketed it that way, but you should know you are gonna have to GS it. What do you expect from GW anyway miracles."

Omegus wrote:
You'll note I haven't been complaining in this thread. I have stated that this rate of failure, even if it is exaggerated twice over, is unacceptable for a product as hyped and expensive as GW miniatures, especially when no such issues were present in plastic or metal models. I then stated that even if that wasn't the case, I am still skeptical about Finecast until I know for sure it won't melt if I leave it in the trunk for a couple of hours. You retorted that this would only happen in "ridiculously specific circumstances" such as leaving it in the car at temperatures of 89 degrees or higher. But hey, even if Finecast isn't warping in the sun, you're displaying an admirable skill at warping reality and what people are actually saying. Kudos.

I think this pretty much hits it on the head.

Fetterkey wrote:Nah. Lots of people just like complaining, especially online where you're not looking someone in the eye and it's unlikely that they'll have a chance to reply. Further, GW is one of those organizations that, for whatever reason, people love to hate. When you see a GW product that doesn't have complaints about it, that just means they've hit one out of the park (Dark Eldar).

Really? Really? You can't think of any reason why people hate on GW?

I'm sure most of the people complaining about Finecast would love to give an earful to whoever at GW is responsible. Of course, GW is locked up in their ivory towers where no one can reach them, and they don't much care what us plebs think.

Cool im still here!

K in that case.

People arnt hating on fine cast because they are scared of change, its because its a change that dont have much improvement yet , very much flaws.

For example, people always loved plastic ( resin is the next step for GW that tries to close the gap between plastic and metal )
but GW did good job on plastic, ( have you ever seen much complaints about plastic? nope! )

Why? because ITS CHANGE DONE RIGHT.