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spiraleddie wrote:This question comes from not reading any of the black library novels, but is the emperor even still sentient?
From what fluff I have picked up from codices and rule books he seems to be a vegeable in the golden throne used to maintain the astromonican, is this correct? Is there any 40th millenium or contemporary occurences of him commanding anyone that is not using a dream or prohecy or such.
I just ask this as I see the emperor as a figure head and the high council as the real power base.

According to fluff the emperor appears in visions, speaks with his subjects through telepathic contact, directs the future of the empire by communicating his will through the Emperors Tarot, and actively fights Chaos. His subjects would never make any of this up.

Or he is just a rotting corpse on a throne, who knows

It doesn't really matter if he's in a vegetative state or not: no astartes chapter is *ever* going to swallow the idea of subservience to the high lords of Terra. Meangreenstompa is right: the Minotaurs would not exist much longer if the high lords tried to use them to exert such power over the many, many proudly sovereign chapters of Astartes.

Yes I get your point about the astartes not being subservient to the high lords, but as mentioned above the emporer wields his power through portents such as the tarot and psychic visions, would these "commands" all not be open to interpretation and manipulation by a skilled prophet or high lord?
Whole crusade armies from various nations (read chapters) went to war againts the infidels in the 12-15th centuries in command of the church, I woudnt call them subservient but they were all beholden to the church in the name of god.
I just make the point as i think a force of Astartes that are under command of the high lords doing the work of the emporer could be seen as an internal policing force and this is not a great leap to the custodes especially considering the slight simlarities in armour styles and weapons and also the loose canon in the 40K world.

d-usa wrote:According to fluff the emperor appears in visions, speaks with his subjects through telepathic contact, directs the future of the empire by communicating his will through the Emperors Tarot, and actively fights Chaos. His subjects would never make any of this up.

He's also schizophrenic according to a certain Black Library Trilogy in which he telepathically speaks to the main character. ;p

Platuan4th wrote:

d-usa wrote:According to fluff the emperor appears in visions, speaks with his subjects through telepathic contact, directs the future of the empire by communicating his will through the Emperors Tarot, and actively fights Chaos. His subjects would never make any of this up.

He's also schizophrenic according to a certain Black Library Trilogy in which he telepathically speaks to the main character. ;p

One of the most horridly written series of books I ever had the misfortune of reading. My God, it was like reading about someone's D&D game gone wrong.

Are you talking about the Ian Watson books?

Yes. The same Ian Watson who wrote the screenplay for A.I.: Artificial Intelligence. That's the movie with two beginnings, three endings, and a boring as paint drying story between them.

On this there is agreement: A.I. was quite possibly the worst movie I've ever seen.

Breotan wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

d-usa wrote:According to fluff the emperor appears in visions, speaks with his subjects through telepathic contact, directs the future of the empire by communicating his will through the Emperors Tarot, and actively fights Chaos. His subjects would never make any of this up.

He's also schizophrenic according to a certain Black Library Trilogy in which he telepathically speaks to the main character. ;p

One of the most horridly written series of books I ever had the misfortune of reading. My God, it was like reading about someone's D&D game gone wrong.

To be fair those books were like the first 40k novels there ever were so they were a bit dated. At that time the Emperor actually gave orders to subordinates and would deem certain people worthy of execution.

The books are still terrible though and I'm gonna go read something intelligent,
Vladsimpaler

ThomasPolder wrote:It doesn't really matter if he's in a vegetative state or not: no astartes chapter is *ever* going to swallow the idea of subservience to the high lords of Terra. Meangreenstompa is right: the Minotaurs would not exist much longer if the high lords tried to use them to exert such power over the many, many proudly sovereign chapters of Astartes.

I take your and Meangreenstompas point and it is unusual and unlikely that a chapter would be potentially controlled by the High Lords. However, it does mention this on Lexicanum:

"Some observers have noted that the Minotaurs respond immediately and slavishly to directives issued by the High Lords of Terra themselves, and have linked this apparent unquestioning behaviour with their large amounts of high quality war materiel. However, this speculation cannot be proved."

Not only that but they have actively antagonised other chapters, including the Ultramarines:

"The Minotaurs of M41, whilst appearing more at home within the bonds of the Imperium and seemingly enjoying the patronage of the High Lords, have still managed to acquire an unsavoury reputation amongst some of their fellow Adeptus Astartes, The Ultramarines and their allied Successor Chapters in particuar have refused to fight alongside the Minotaurs as a result of both the Minotaurs almost total eradication of the Inceptors chapter in what some saw as an over-reaction, their public insulting of Marneus Calgar and the provocation given to the Genesis Chapter during the fourteenth siege of Antigonis."

To me, their near destruction of the Inceptors is possible evidence of their acting as the High Lords enforcers and their actions show that they are willing to incur the wrath of even powerful first founding chapters.

It's certainly only more circumstantial evidence I grant you, but then so is much of the evidence for origins of chapters such as the Blood Ravens for example.

What do people think?

Just to throw in a little more fluff perspective here;

Isn't one of the members of the High Lords of Terra that carries the title of Master of the Astartes? A Chapter Master from some marine chapter where the office of Master of the Astartes is on a rotational basis?

From my recollection, the Master of the Astartes would be the one to contact marine chapters for certain duties/missions of import to the High Lords, so wouldn't that be a way of taking orders from the High Lords of Terra?

There is the Lord Commander of the Segmentum Solar but I don't know if that position is filled by an Astartes. Maybe someone with more info can help out?

In one of my earlier posts I noted that the Captain-General of the Custodes is one of the High Lords and that was one if the reasons I had for making a potential link between the Custodes and the Minotaurs.

ThirdUltra wrote:Just to throw in a little more fluff perspective here;

Isn't one of the members of the High Lords of Terra that carries the title of Master of the Astartes? A Chapter Master from some marine chapter where the office of Master of the Astartes is on a rotational basis?

From my recollection, the Master of the Astartes would be the one to contact marine chapters for certain duties/missions of import to the High Lords, so wouldn't that be a way of taking orders from the High Lords of Terra?

No, the Astartes do not have a particular representative on the Council of Terra, and have not since Roboute Guilliman founded the 'modern' Council. The Astartes claim to sovereignty works both ways after all.

Now, while I have enjoyed reading this discussion, I can't help but think it's veering away from the themes discussed at the Forge World Open Day. Should we all perhaps close this line of discussion or take it elsewhere before one of the moderators gives us a telling off?

automatonsleuth wrote:

ThirdUltra wrote:Just to throw in a little more fluff perspective here;

Isn't one of the members of the High Lords of Terra that carries the title of Master of the Astartes? A Chapter Master from some marine chapter where the office of Master of the Astartes is on a rotational basis?

From my recollection, the Master of the Astartes would be the one to contact marine chapters for certain duties/missions of import to the High Lords, so wouldn't that be a way of taking orders from the High Lords of Terra?

No, the Astartes do not have a particular representative on the Council of Terra, and have not since Roboute Guilliman founded the 'modern' Council. The Astartes claim to sovereignty works both ways after all.

Now, while I have enjoyed reading this discussion, I can't help but think it's veering away from the themes discussed at the Forge World Open Day. Should we all perhaps close this line of discussion or take it elsewhere before one of the moderators gives us a telling off?

Good points and you're right about straying off topic. I have started a thread here to continue the discussion:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/441997.page#4130644

I am disappointed by the lack of Necron stuffs (here I was thinking they might actually show something from IA12 to whet my appetite...)

skoffs wrote:I am disappointed by the lack of Necron stuffs (here I was thinking they might actually show something from IA12 to whet my appetite...)

They generally release one book a year. We just found out about the alteration of IA12 from Chaos to Necrons...so it's going to be awhile yet.