Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I'm actually going to disagree with you on the "objective secured" bit.

They're supposed to be wildly unfocused without a handler. So maybe no OS unless there's a Grot Herder nearby?

Or hell, just give them(and Nurglings!) some kind of "distracting nuisance" rule.

 Kanluwen wrote:
I'm actually going to disagree with you on the "objective secured" bit.

They're supposed to be wildly unfocused without a handler. So maybe no OS unless there's a Grot Herder nearby?

Or hell, just give them(and Nurglings!) some kind of "distracting nuisance" rule.

We can always make up some nonsensical lore reason why something sucks but in game balance means having a troop based unit that does absolutely nothing but claim objectives that are even limited in that role because they don’t have the one rule every other troop unit In Game has means that unit sucks.

No one takes herders, heck no one even takes the brand new named herder zodgrod who literally makes the best super grots because no matter how much those units improve grots they still are awful at doing anything for the cost except claim objectives.

Then maybe other fodder type troop units in the game shouldn't get it as well?

I have zero issues with Conscripts not getting it. Zero issues with Cultists not getting it.

Because that seems to be the part you're glossing over. It's not just a "lore reason". It's the mechanism and intention behind the unit itself.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Then maybe other fodder type troop units in the game shouldn't get it as well?

I have zero issues with Conscripts not getting it. Zero issues with Cultists not getting it.

Because that seems to be the part you're glossing over. It's not just a "lore reason". It's the mechanism and intention behind the unit itself.

I mean the intention of the unit is pretty blatant now… games workshop just specifically carved out a role for Gretchin in the new missions to claim objectives!!’

Heck I think adding a herder to make grots objective secured is a good idea (and gives the herder a reason to be taken)… the trick is making it point efficient enough so that taking a unit of Gretchin and a herder isn’t more expensive then just taking a unit of boys that do the same thing only better. For that to work herders need to be around 17 Base with 3pt hound/lash.. putting the unit at 60pts to the ork boys 80pt or ~6ppm Gretchin… which is still kinda expensive… but playable.

While I'm still not a fan of loosing the free WLT/Relic, The Fact this book has the updated and FAQ'd core rules and all the work put into the faction secondaries means I'm not as averse to buying it as I was.

I'm actually pretty happy with how it turned out... except I really wish it was spiral bound. Hopefully the points drops show up soon.

gungo wrote:

 Oguhmek wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
Huh - removing the 5 ppm floor? Interesting.

Yea, too bad Grots are still overpriced at 4pt though.

They do nothing. They need new rules to be useful.

*looks sadly at the 40 Grots that is collecting dust on the shelf*

They should have objective secured as a troops choice but they do get some extra love in the mission changes as well… so there is some play there for them or if they have orrible gits but they are still a cheap troop and throwaway unit.

Well, the 'orrible gitz thing exists, but still sucks for a number of reasons:

1. It's a specialist mob, so only one / army

2. It also has a disadvantage (the -1 to shooting within 3" which is more likely to affect you than your enemy), and I'm sick and tired of Orks ALWAYS getting this "hey here's a rule that helps you slightly, but attached to it is a friggin -1 to shooting/leadership etc. etc. wtf do we always get these negative rules?)

3. Grots die/run away from a slight breeze, so they're not going to hold this objective by themselves anyway, which means I need to invest more points in other units to actually hang on to the objective if I need to (which also then likely get the -1 to shoot, yay)

4. They are only slightly useful as a throwaway unit because Boyz also kinda suck.

I dunno, Grots are never going to be an offensive unit, maybe give them a defensive role, like a built in Grot Shields ability (instead of a strategem) that gives dense cover (instead of light, which is pretty useless for Ork infantry), but also cause mortal wounds to the Grots if triggered. Anyway, I love the little guys, and just wish I had a reason to field them.

 Jidmah wrote:

Us3Less wrote:
Why is this person the only one reporting on the new points and only of a specific faction? I'm not really doubting that he's correct but more wondering where the rest of the points are.

Maybe they were trying to shut down the shitstorm kicked up by the (now debunked) rumors I shared earlier.

Task failed successfully!

Anyways the guy apparently is a TO in the UK, so it's possible that he actually has some sources on that.

Got some further info from someone on GSC Discord. Basically the folks doing video reviews for Chapter Approved have the new points details, but sites like Goonhammer doing text reviews do not.

However reviewers aren't supposed to discuss the points until GW posts something, so it's possible that Twisted Dice has misunderstood the rules.

Right, thanks for the update. Hopefully the points pdf drops when the pre order article goes up on WarCom.

 Oguhmek wrote:

gungo wrote:

 Oguhmek wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
Huh - removing the 5 ppm floor? Interesting.

Yea, too bad Grots are still overpriced at 4pt though.

They do nothing. They need new rules to be useful.

*looks sadly at the 40 Grots that is collecting dust on the shelf*

They should have objective secured as a troops choice but they do get some extra love in the mission changes as well… so there is some play there for them or if they have orrible gits but they are still a cheap troop and throwaway unit.

Well, the 'orrible gitz thing exists, but still sucks for a number of reasons:

1. It's a specialist mob, so only one / army

2. It also has a disadvantage (the -1 to shooting within 3" which is more likely to affect you than your enemy), and I'm sick and tired of Orks ALWAYS getting this "hey here's a rule that helps you slightly, but attached to it is a friggin -1 to shooting/leadership etc. etc. wtf do we always get these negative rules?)

3. Grots die/run away from a slight breeze, so they're not going to hold this objective by themselves anyway, which means I need to invest more points in other units to actually hang on to the objective if I need to (which also then likely get the -1 to shoot, yay)

4. They are only slightly useful as a throwaway unit because Boyz also kinda suck.

I dunno, Grots are never going to be an offensive unit, maybe give them a defensive role, like a built in Grot Shields ability (instead of a strategem) that gives dense cover (instead of light, which is pretty useless for Ork infantry), but also cause mortal wounds to the Grots if triggered. Anyway, I love the little guys, and just wish I had a reason to field them.

Not disagreeing with you. Just saying they might have play with the new mission rule that allows them to score turn 1. All you need is 1x 40pt unit to grab an objective turn 1. If it stays alive great if not it did it’s job.. fill the second troop slot with beastsnaggas in Killrig. Which is a useful unit. Take several units of kommandos to block some of your opponents missions and a beastboss on squig w beasthide mantle or BBK. And you have a decent core for a goff pressure again. Mission play is what makes or break 9th edition armies and orks look like they got some new tools this Chapter approved. (I expect to see a lot more of the above type lists some with or without ghaz/makari.) some using stormboys min size units to grab objectives or some with squigriders instead because FA and HS slot limits suck for orks. It’s the only list we have left with mission play. Nothing in The new missions seems to really help push buggy spam or army of renown and does nothing for dreadmob or greentide builds issues.

 xttz wrote:
https://www.goonhammer.com/chapter-approved-war-zone-nephilim-the-goonhammer-review/

Goonhammer CA review here, including all secondaries.

Orks get some positive changes here too.

They lost me on 'updated rules make this a must buy' rather than accepting that GW should be posting an updated core rules document on the regular. Especially after acknowledging that it isn't even up today with rules changes from four months ago.


---
Weirdest change:

No Empty Dedicated Transports: When you deploy your army, each Dedicated Transport must have at least one unit embarked in it – if it doesn’t, then it’s destroyed. No more empty Wave Serpents or Land Speeder Storms (the main culprits in the past).

Way to prove you've no concept of reserves, battlefield tactics or basic safety, GW.
Everybody waits for the battle kickoff whistle in the APC, not dispersed in terrain. That's just...

gungo wrote:

 Oguhmek wrote:

gungo wrote:

 Oguhmek wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
Huh - removing the 5 ppm floor? Interesting.

Yea, too bad Grots are still overpriced at 4pt though.

They do nothing. They need new rules to be useful.

*looks sadly at the 40 Grots that is collecting dust on the shelf*

They should have objective secured as a troops choice but they do get some extra love in the mission changes as well… so there is some play there for them or if they have orrible gits but they are still a cheap troop and throwaway unit.

Well, the 'orrible gitz thing exists, but still sucks for a number of reasons:

1. It's a specialist mob, so only one / army

2. It also has a disadvantage (the -1 to shooting within 3" which is more likely to affect you than your enemy), and I'm sick and tired of Orks ALWAYS getting this "hey here's a rule that helps you slightly, but attached to it is a friggin -1 to shooting/leadership etc. etc. wtf do we always get these negative rules?)

3. Grots die/run away from a slight breeze, so they're not going to hold this objective by themselves anyway, which means I need to invest more points in other units to actually hang on to the objective if I need to (which also then likely get the -1 to shoot, yay)

4. They are only slightly useful as a throwaway unit because Boyz also kinda suck.

I dunno, Grots are never going to be an offensive unit, maybe give them a defensive role, like a built in Grot Shields ability (instead of a strategem) that gives dense cover (instead of light, which is pretty useless for Ork infantry), but also cause mortal wounds to the Grots if triggered. Anyway, I love the little guys, and just wish I had a reason to field them.

Not disagreeing with you. Just saying they might have play with the new mission rule that allows them to score turn 1. All you need is 1x 40pt unit to grab an objective turn 1. If it stays alive great if not it did it’s job.. fill the second troop slot with beastsnaggas in Killrig. Which is a useful unit. Take several units of kommandos to block some of your opponents missions and a beastboss on squig w beasthide mantle or BBK. And you have a decent core for a goff pressure again. Mission play is what makes or break 9th edition armies and orks look like they got some new tools this Chapter approved. (I expect to see a lot more of the above type lists some with or without ghaz/makari.) some using stormboys min size units to grab objectives or some with squigriders instead because FA and HS slot limits suck for orks. It’s the only list we have left with mission play. Nothing in The new missions seems to really help push buggy spam or army of renown and does nothing for dreadmob or greentide builds issues.

Yea, I get what you are saying - they do more now than they used to. Still, they don't DO anything - just deploy them on an objective, or on your deployment line and advance them onto an objective on T1 (unless you lose first turn, and they all die/run away because they were shot at by a random rhino storm bolter). I dunno it just feels like going through the motions, like paying a scoring tax, these new tournament rules aren't my thing anyway, I mostly play tempest of war. I prefer units to have a use because of their rules/stat line, not because of mission technicalities.

 Eldarsif wrote:
From that video:

Beastboss on Squigosaur 175->160
Makari 55->50
Boyz 9->8
grots 5->4
Beast Snagga Boyz 11->10
Nobs 18->17
Tankbustas 17->16
Squigbuggies 110->95
Kill Rig 210->190

Beastboss: Went up 30pts last time because GW is stupid. Nobody was using Beastboss but they still hit it with a 20% price hike. Now, after making characters worse, especially 1 per detachment characters they gave it a 15pt price reduction. Still 15pts higher than it started when almost nobody was using it in the competitive scene...and definitely nobody was using it and placing.

Boyz/Grots/beastsnaggas/nobz/tankbustas/lootas/stormboyz: Summary: 1pt price reduction...your units which die to a stiff breeze are now a tiny bit cheaper to bring...also, we are going to heavily penalize you if you take multiple detachments so make sure you fully utilize those battalion slots because you aren't likely going to be taking more than 3 of each battlefield role

Squigbuggies: couldn't care less for two reasons. 1: I don't like the model and therefore never bought any, I think they are ugly. and 2: Dropping them by 15pts after they've been limited, are stuck in squadrons AND with the new indirect weapons rules making them significantly less useful...You could have dropped them 30-35 and they would still have been relegated to the shelf over the better buggies like Scrapjetz.

Killrig: literally just undoes what GW did last points change. They gave it a 20pt price hike and realized "Whoops this thing isn't worth 210pts" and brought it right back to where it was, where almost nobody was taking it to begin with.


If they do not fundamentally change Ork rules, especially movement, limitations and Morale then unless you make those aforementioned units so cheap they become a true horde army, none of these minuscule price changes will do anything.

Uhm, semper, you might want to check your "nobody was using this" statements against actual data...

 Jidmah wrote:
Uhm, semper, you might want to check your "nobody was using this" statements against actual data...

It's Semper - reality need not apply.

Nor, by the look of things, do basic mathematics skills - 110 to 95 is a 15 point drop, not a 25 point drop.

 Dysartes wrote:

It's Semper - reality need not apply.

Nor, by the look of things, do basic mathematics skills - 110 to 95 is a 15 point drop, not a 25 point drop.

That is a spectacularly mean-spirited and uncharitable reading of what could just as well explained as a run of the mill mistake. Are you a hateful git out of obsessive compulsion, or choice?

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

It's Semper - reality need not apply.

Nor, by the look of things, do basic mathematics skills - 110 to 95 is a 15 point drop, not a 25 point drop.

That is a spectacularly mean-spirited and uncharitable reading of what could just as well explained as a run of the mill mistake. Are you a hateful git out of obsessive compulsion, or choice?

Isn't calling someone an obsessively compulsive hateful git, a little strong given the nature of your post? If you want to call someone out as unfairly offensive, don't immediately follow the same example.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

It's Semper - reality need not apply.

Nor, by the look of things, do basic mathematics skills - 110 to 95 is a 15 point drop, not a 25 point drop.

That is a spectacularly mean-spirited and uncharitable reading of what could just as well explained as a run of the mill mistake. Are you a hateful git out of obsessive compulsion, or choice?

Excuse me sir this is a Wendy's

Who here isn't a hateful git to some subset of people they consider it's okay to be a hateful git to.

Killrig at 190 Vs wazboom at 190.
Not an easy choice, maybe a killrig will be superior now that fliers can't engage. Of course it will depend on the rest of the list but there is a debate.

If grots actually are moved down to 4 points, I'd be shocked that GW are finally admitting that their asinine 5 point minimum is dumb and that they can actually point things lower than that.

It'd be better if grots got more functional rules, but at least it's a start. I don't even know if they're worth 3ppm at their current ruleset, but 4ppm won't be enough to make them "competitive". Likewise with Boyz being at 8. I see them needing to be around 6-7 points with the AoC changes and general lack of synergy in the current codex.

Voss wrote:
Weirdest change:

No Empty Dedicated Transports: When you deploy your army, each Dedicated Transport must have at least one unit embarked in it – if it doesn’t, then it’s destroyed. No more empty Wave Serpents or Land Speeder Storms (the main culprits in the past).

Way to prove you've no concept of reserves, battlefield tactics or basic safety, GW.
Everybody waits for the battle kickoff whistle in the APC, not dispersed in terrain. That's just...

Nope. Just no.

The double-tap of CP reduction and no free WT/Relic was bad enough, but this is flat out insane.

They really haven't a clue what they're doing.

 Oguhmek wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
Huh - removing the 5 ppm floor? Interesting.

Yea, too bad Grots are still overpriced at 4pt though.

They do nothing. They need new rules to be useful.

*looks sadly at the 40 Grots that is collecting dust on the shelf*

kely going to be taking more than 3 of each battlefield role

Maybe I missed something but why is the AOS generals handbook $50 but the 40K chapter approved is only $30?

SirGrotzalot wrote:
Maybe I missed something but why is the AOS generals handbook $50 but the 40K chapter approved is only $30?

Spiral binding and card tokens vs cheap and dirty softbind.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Voss wrote:
Weirdest change:

No Empty Dedicated Transports: When you deploy your army, each Dedicated Transport must have at least one unit embarked in it – if it doesn’t, then it’s destroyed. No more empty Wave Serpents or Land Speeder Storms (the main culprits in the past).

Way to prove you've no concept of reserves, battlefield tactics or basic safety, GW.
Everybody waits for the battle kickoff whistle in the APC, not dispersed in terrain. That's just...

Nope. Just no.

The double-tap of CP reduction and no free WT/Relic was bad enough, but this is flat out insane.

They really haven't a clue what they're doing.

Ah yes, because Land Speeder Storms were dominating and scary. OH and all those pesky Wave Serpents doing so much heavy lifting.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Voss wrote:
Weirdest change:

No Empty Dedicated Transports: When you deploy your army, each Dedicated Transport must have at least one unit embarked in it – if it doesn’t, then it’s destroyed. No more empty Wave Serpents or Land Speeder Storms (the main culprits in the past).

Way to prove you've no concept of reserves, battlefield tactics or basic safety, GW.
Everybody waits for the battle kickoff whistle in the APC, not dispersed in terrain. That's just...

Nope. Just no.

The double-tap of CP reduction and no free WT/Relic was bad enough, but this is flat out insane.

They really haven't a clue what they're doing.

Well sales tell do they have clue or not. After all sales is their only goal so those decide do they have a clue.

If sales go strong they do as they archieve goal they need to fulfill.

I don't think sales could tell you anything about how people are using transports.

Not honestly gonna complain. Folks taking Land Speeder Storms for units that can't use them has been exceedingly dumb.

 Laughing Man wrote:
Folks taking Land Speeder Storms for units that can't use them has been exceedingly dumb.

Then fix that unit. Make it so you can only take it if you have Scouts.

Don't create general solutions for specific problems. This is the flyer bull gak all over again.

I'm not sure what the problem is here, but I never liked that you could take a transport but then not actually transport the unit you bought it for... it only made things like venom/raider spam even better and personally it just felt wrong. I haven't encountered a situation yet where separating transport and 'cargo' made sense, so I'm all for this change.