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The 3 fast attack brigade tax has a lot of options that are good. What's best is completely dependent on the regiment doctrine and the rest of the army, and even then it's not obvious.

Catachans have to choose between s4 rough riders that can balloon up to 3 attacks or scout sentinels that have a reroll on their heavy flamer.

Tallaran have to choose between adding rough riders to an already considerable out flank force or lascannon armored sentinels that can move and fire without penalty.

Cadians have to choose between static armored sentinels with considerable bonuses to hit or rough riders to fill in a mobility gap.

Right now I'm actually thinking of doing 60 point rough rider units with 2 plasma guns (Cadian Doctrine) the extra 2 lances on 5 rough riders won't make much difference in CC if I go up agaist a really nasty assault army, but they can still bully weak backfield units with 3 lances. Their dakka can get beefy with the overlapping fields of fire strategem hitting on 3+ and being immune to plasma guns overheating. 7 ablative wounds before plasma gunners die and a 22" threat range on their double tap.

This is a good codex with a lot of viable options.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Catachan rough riders aren't going to be S4. As a Catachan player, I shed tears over this every evening. They're still totally awesome though so I keep fielding them.

Ya roughriders aren't infantry.
If you're looking for fast attack choices choose a Taurus venerator with twin linked lascannons that can move and fire w/o penalty And a 5++ invul.

Yeah, only Cadian or Vostroyan regiment bonuses can affect Rough Riders, and you're not likely to use the Cadian ones ever (rough riders that don't move?).

Plasma Gun wielding rough riders could get the benefit of the Vostroyan regiment however, it doesn't specifiy infantry. And 30" plasma guns on rough riders. . . has potential. That's only 50 points for a 5 man squad with 2 plasma guns, which can flank and rapid fire at 15". Might be worth investing in some big hats for your horsemen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
With regards to Chimeras, I want to make up a unit of 10 Crusaders and a priest, stick them in a double heavy flamer chimera, and go smack them into someone's face as a relatively cheap but hard as nails distraction.

Bullgryns can do the same thing of course.

Rough riders will often miss out on Cadian Doctrine from moving but Overlapping fields of fire works for the entire army, and it will likely be used every turn until command points are exhausted. The 22" double tap threat range can get them in range of the planned target for overlapping fields of fire and they can still charge something if needed.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:
Ya roughriders aren't infantry.
If you're looking for fast attack choices choose a Taurus venerator with twin linked lascannons that can move and fire w/o penalty And a 5++ invul.

It would still lose Cadian Doctrine for moving, it's expensive, and Cadians are already loaded with lascannons. I'm also not convinced lascannons need speed due to their long range.

A Catachan tauros with a heavy flamer is way faster than a scout sentinel. Those would be scary.

 Blacksails wrote:
I want to like the chimera because it looks so much better than the god awful Taurox, but the weapon loadout and cost of the Taurox is much more attractive.

Waiting on the right Taurox alternative model from somewhere.

 argonak wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
With regards to Chimeras, I want to make up a unit of 10 Crusaders and a priest, stick them in a double heavy flamer chimera, and go smack them into someone's face as a relatively cheap but hard as nails distraction.

Bullgryns can do the same thing of course.

Yeah I'm interested in converting up some crusaders but S3 power swords aren't very enticing. With a priest they'd get 30 attacks vs Bullgryns 3 Bullgryn + priest getting 16?

Crusaders can reroll all misses AND use acts of faith. It's a tough call.

 Colonel Cross wrote:

 argonak wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
With regards to Chimeras, I want to make up a unit of 10 Crusaders and a priest, stick them in a double heavy flamer chimera, and go smack them into someone's face as a relatively cheap but hard as nails distraction.

Bullgryns can do the same thing of course.

Yeah I'm interested in converting up some crusaders but S3 power swords aren't very enticing. With a priest they'd get 30 attacks vs Bullgryns 3 Bullgryn + priest getting 16?

Crusaders can reroll all misses AND use acts of faith. It's a tough call.

The thing I like best for Crusaders is their acts of faith giving them a 12" move most turns. That's more than rough riders!

Mathmatically, 1 Priest doesn't do anything good for a unit of 3 bullgryns, you're better off buying another bullgryn (in a chimera or Valkyrie anyway, obviously not in a taurox). Especially now that the priest is stuck with a lousy chainsword. If he could have a powerfist maybe.

edit: The main thing I like about crusaders is that they're just different. I like variety.

 argonak wrote:

 Colonel Cross wrote:

 argonak wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
With regards to Chimeras, I want to make up a unit of 10 Crusaders and a priest, stick them in a double heavy flamer chimera, and go smack them into someone's face as a relatively cheap but hard as nails distraction.

Bullgryns can do the same thing of course.

Yeah I'm interested in converting up some crusaders but S3 power swords aren't very enticing. With a priest they'd get 30 attacks vs Bullgryns 3 Bullgryn + priest getting 16?

Crusaders can reroll all misses AND use acts of faith. It's a tough call.

The thing I like best for Crusaders is their acts of faith giving them a 12" move most turns. That's more than rough riders!

Mathmatically, 1 Priest doesn't do anything good for a unit of 3 bullgryns, you're better off buying another bullgryn (in a chimera or Valkyrie anyway, obviously not in a taurox). Especially now that the priest is stuck with a lousy chainsword. If he could have a powerfist maybe.

edit: The main thing I like about crusaders is that they're just different. I like variety.

The act of faith is very versatile. I really like it. I'm thinking about using Scions as crusaders. Maybe use the brute shield as the storm shield? Not sure how to make a shield arm/hand though yet ...

I used to give my priest a power maul. Sad he's not a sneaky melee threat anymore. I only have 3 Bullgryn at the moment so that's why I just added a priest in.

I totally agree about variety. That's part of the draw for the imperial guard.

 Colonel Cross wrote:
Sorry to burst your bubble, but Catachan rough riders aren't going to be S4. As a Catachan player, I shed tears over this every evening. They're still totally awesome though so I keep fielding them.

I'd allow it, if I were playing against you. Its in the spirit of the game.

 Colonel Cross wrote:


The act of faith is very versatile. I really like it. I'm thinking about using Scions as crusaders. Maybe use the brute shield as the storm shield? Not sure how to make a shield arm/hand though yet ...

I used to give my priest a power maul. Sad he's not a sneaky melee threat anymore. I only have 3 Bullgryn at the moment so that's why I just added a priest in.

I totally agree about variety. That's part of the draw for the imperial guard.

Yeah I agree, I've also been thinking Scions with Skitarii vanguard heads is probably the most straight forward. I've got power sword hands leftover already, so I should be able to get up enough for a whole squad. The small ogryn shields would probably look the best for their stormshield, but I've also got old Empire Knight shields that would look nice as well I think. Or there's always shapeways bits. I have lots of spare left arms, so I think I can figure something out.

The elaborate scion armor will make more sense on crusaders than it does on scions too. Just need to greenstuff up some flowing capes.

Wait, Scions can't be in main detachments? What? Where does it say that?

 doc1234 wrote:
Wait, Scions can't be in main detachments? What? Where does it say that?

They don't get their regiment traits if they enter another regiment's detachment, though that other regiment still gets theirs.

Because I Can, i've worked up a simulator which runs the Cadian and Catachan doctrines on Russ tanks to see which works better.

Attached are the results of a non-overcharge non-moving Executioner Commander w/ Pcannon &LCannon shooting at a primaris marine 1 million times with Cadian reroll 1s and columns showing 1,2,3 and 4 reroll random shots for the Catachan .

The top-sheet result is that the cadian tank outperforms the catachan in almost every field, so long as it doesn't move, by 10-20~%.

Proves what we knew; Cats are better for general purpose; Cads are the static gunline of choice, and when I do it, Tallarn are best for mobile assault.

If you're worried about getting into a static mindset and want russes; it would appear Catachan are for you. If you want to reduce your opponent to fine radioactive fog in 1 turn of shooting, Cadians are where its at.

Requests for other simulations welcome - i'm going to go through the whole armory eventually, but if there's a community favorite to evaluate i'll do it sooner.

Trickstick wrote:Interesting read Polonius. One thing I have been thinking about is using scout sentinels in squadrons to reduce the chances of giving away first blood. They are one of the only vehicles which doesn't separate when you deploy them, so you can get a 12 or 18 wound unit that would be much harder to kill. I was mainly thinking about this because I was taking 2 hellhounds and thought 4 sentinels worked pretty well.

I think you answered your own question, which is why take two sentinels when you can take a hellhound? I know you lose scout, but if your opponent can wreck a scout sentinel turn one, he can probably wreck a hellhound turn one. Or an infantry squad. If that's something you worry about, then go ahead, but especially with scouts I feel that there's some raw inefficiency baked into them to account for the scout move. Doubling down on that might not make a lot of sense.

vipoid wrote:I've got another question for you guys. I tend to play infantry-heavy armies, with a few sentinels (to make up a Brigade) and, at most, 2 Leman Russ.

My question is, aside from Cadian, what doctrine do you think would be best for this sort of army?

Tallarn could be fun, especially if you like moving. Vostroyan will help more than you think, especially with FRFSRF and plasma. Valhallan is tough, and can regenerate squads

That was a fantastic read and very insightful. Great work.

Are you planning to do writeups like this for any other units?

thanks!

Trickstick wrote:[Well Polonius wrote this great article, so we may get the whole thing again this time.

I was working on a similar article for the index, and got everything done but the lords of war: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/730110.page I'll be working to update that for the codex, and eventually turn it into an article.

Concerning the Milatarus Tempus (or Storm Troopers Doctrine)

Can't I create a Regiment (Bob's Boisterous Ballers) and then choose the Storm Trooper Doctrine (since that's what I feel represents the 3xB Regiment pg.132) and then make all my Battle Tanks, Basilisks, and HWT LasCannons that same regiment?

Thus giving my Army 1/2 range full of dakka?

In short I can make my Army "any" of the doctrines I see fit?

 RegulusBlack wrote:
Concerning the Milatarus Tempus (or Storm Troopers Doctrine)

Can't I create a Regiment (Bob's Boisterous Ballers) and then choose the Storm Trooper Doctrine (since that's what I feel represents the 3xB Regiment pg.132) and then make all my Battle Tanks, Basilisks, and HWT LasCannons that same regiment?

Thus giving my Army 1/2 range full of dakka?

In short I can make my Army "any" of the doctrines I see fit?

Page 84:

...the MILITARUM TEMPESTUS keyword cannot be used to replace the <REGIMENT> keyword on any other datasheet.

 malamis wrote:


1. You have to bring it in turn 3 or lose it; it's still 'in reserve' unless you're playing a 'counts as destroyed isn't actually destroyed' game.
2. If the enemy is CC focused and they're in combat, in most cases you'll be happier firing the death strike anyway. There's actually value in forcing the issue by sacrificing a unit to maximise your AOE benefits.

Personally I stick mine behind a pair of bastions in the corner, and let the Big Red Tank (Shadow sword) provide the distraction grief until the missile is good and ready.

I don't have the rulebook to hand but why do I have to bring them on turn 3 rather than turn 4? Its not that much of an issue, If I brought him on turn 3 I'd pop smoke, maybe use an astropath to give him +1 save and then use take cover. All while keeping him in cover. They don't lose any BS until they lose 6+ wounds.

When you used the deathstrike what kind of return on your investment did you get?

With my Tallarn Outrider detachement, its a choice between the Deathstrike + a company commander or a Tank commander in a Punisher Tank. (I'd be ambushing either the tank or the deathstrike alongside 2 x 2 Hellhound equivalents) I like the idea of mixing things up but I don't want to waste 165 points on a useless vehicle.

I don't have any superheavies in my army and don't really intend to get any.

Can special weapons squads still take demo charges??

 Tsol wrote:

 Colonel Cross wrote:
Sorry to burst your bubble, but Catachan rough riders aren't going to be S4. As a Catachan player, I shed tears over this every evening. They're still totally awesome though so I keep fielding them.

I'd allow it, if I were playing against you. Its in the spirit of the game.

I’d probably let it go too. I certainly would if they were converted Catachans on Cold Ones.

 Twoshoes23 wrote:
Can special weapons squads still take demo charges??

Not the ones in the Codex. However, if you take the entry from the index then you can. It's a weird position really.

Thanks TrickStick,

I understand i cannot make my Basilisk "Militarus Tempus" but i can make it "The Super Awesome Dudes" Regiment and then choose the "MT:Stormtrooper" Doctrine as my Regiments Doctrine based off of pg 132 ?

I don't believe there is anything that limits the Doctrine based off of your Army? Just that I Cannot have MT Basilisks, but i can have "TSAD" Basilisks with MT Doctrine?

 RegulusBlack wrote:
Thanks TrickStick,

I understand i cannot make my Basilisk "Militarus Tempus" but i can make it "The Super Awesome Dudes" Regiment and then choose the "MT:Stormtrooper" Doctrine as my Regiments Doctrine based off of pg 132 ?

I don't believe there is anything that limits the Doctrine based off of your Army? Just that I Cannot have MT Basilisks, but i can have "TSAD" Basilisks with MT Doctrine?

That's an interesting question. I'm not sure exactly how I should read it, but it does seem like you can pick any Doctrine. The Militarum Tempestus: Storm Troopers is a regimental doctrine. If you did this, obviously you could not include Tempestus Scions with your Super Awesome Dudes and have them both match Regiment-wise.

My strict reading of the rule right now would be that you could do that. Seems like something GW probably didn't intend, but a FAQ would tell us the truth on that.

 RegulusBlack wrote:
Thanks TrickStick,

I understand i cannot make my Basilisk "Militarus Tempus" but i can make it "The Super Awesome Dudes" Regiment and then choose the "MT:Stormtrooper" Doctrine as my Regiments Doctrine based off of pg 132 ?

I don't believe there is anything that limits the Doctrine based off of your Army? Just that I Cannot have MT Basilisks, but i can have "TSAD" Basilisks with MT Doctrine?

I don't know. I think that the intention of the rule is to let me use my "Tvashtan 422nd" army with Tallarn rules, as that doesn't actually change the balance of the game in any way. Giving Tempestus rules to <regiment> units seems like gaming the system. If the wording of the rules allows it, I imagine that it is unintentional and will be FAQed. Like many rule interactions, I would file it under "I guess you can but don't go waste money building an army around it and crying when it disappears".

I have been wondering about the super-heavies. Is the Shadowsword just the best? Why would you want to take a banesword or stormsword? I can see merit to the transport versions but those two just seem bad. I guess they do more shots, which could help. I can imagine the banesword actually being ok with the special rule I guess. Would need to mathhammer it.

Oh, something else I was thinking recently. Let's say I'm using an Armgeddon or Tallarn list where virtually all the infantry is in transports.

Aside from Tank Commanders, which HQs do you think work best with that sort of list?

 vipoid wrote:
Oh, something else I was thinking recently. Let's say I'm using an Armgeddon or Tallarn list where virtually all the infantry is in transports.

Aside from Tank Commanders, which HQs do you think work best with that sort of list?

Well you would still want company commanders for when you jump out.

 Trickstick wrote:

 Twoshoes23 wrote:
Can special weapons squads still take demo charges??

Not the ones in the Codex. However, if you take the entry from the index then you can. It's a weird position really.

If i do that can i still give them doctrines? My idea here is 2x SWS in a Chimera with ML, HB and maybe a Stubber. one squad has 3 demo charges, the other one and two plasma guns ( or whatever you want, except snipers obviously). They are Tallarn, so that is 12 + d6 turn one. Then 6 + d6 turn to the put out 12 lasguns, 2 special weapons, and 4D6 strength 8 shots wherever you want. A little contingent on the Tallarn trait though to get there...oh and 1CP for the grenades stratagem. All for pretty cheap too.

 Twoshoes23 wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

 Twoshoes23 wrote:
Can special weapons squads still take demo charges??

Not the ones in the Codex. However, if you take the entry from the index then you can. It's a weird position really.

If i do that can i still give them doctrines? My idea here is 2x SWS in a Chimera with ML, HB and maybe a Stubber. one squad has 3 demo charges, the other one and two plasma guns ( or whatever you want, except snipers obviously). They are Tallarn, so that is 12 + d6 turn one. Then 6 + d6 turn to the put out 12 lasguns, 2 special weapons, and 4D6 strength 8 shots wherever you want. A little contingent on the Tallarn trait though to get there...oh and 1CP for the grenades stratagem. All for pretty cheap too.

Yeah you can give them doctrines.

It's almost like the grenade stratagem was designed for use by demo charge SWSs and yet, doesn't necessarily seem legal to use. I'd like an FAQ on it. I have legit pewter Catachans with demo charges from back in the day I'd love to use. If you could throw them all at once they would actually be viable. Precodex I would use 2 meltas or a heavy flamer and a demo charge. But obviously 3 demo charges at once is more optimal.

 Trickstick wrote:

I have been wondering about the super-heavies. Is the Shadowsword just the best? Why would you want to take a banesword or stormsword? I can see merit to the transport versions but those two just seem bad. I guess they do more shots, which could help. I can imagine the banesword actually being ok with the special rule I guess. Would need to mathhammer it.

The Hellhammer and Banesword are *slightly* better options for killing terminators and really any 'large number of high toughness models in one unit' units of which there are like 3 in the whole game. The Shadowsword is genuinely just the best one - though I haven't exhausted the mathhammer yet - as it combines range, damage and , surprisingly, weight of shots into one package. It's the guard's simple answer to lone big scary models, which was basically the only thing missing from the armory.

Sadly the Stormsword is the runt of the litter, although it's improved on its original index incarnation. It's a shame as my StormSword was the best painted of the three SHTs i've got and i don't have the heart to remodel it :|