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Hullo Dakka,

I'm here to talk about a matter very close to my heart, that of chief librarian Mephiston of the Blood Angels chapter. Everywhere I go, I hear cries of "Meph is complete crap!" and "He's way overcosted lol" and also "He's just a noobslayer, a pr0 player like me knows how to neutralise him"

Yet I ask you now, is Mephiston really as bad as people say? Is he really terribly overcosted?

Lets look at a hive tyrant. For about 300pts, you can get a flying MC with 5 attacks on the charge at str6, rerolling hits, and having 4 wounds with a 2+ save at t6, and unreliable psychic defense (SITW).

Same thing with a daemon prince. For a little over 200pts, you can have a monstrous creature, with 4 wounds, a 3+ save, and t6, AND a 5+ invul (which both meph and the tyrant lack) On the charge, you prince hits 5 times at str6, rerolling hits and wounds.

Then lets look at mephiston. For 250pts, you get an INFANTRY model, who gets cover saves from having his left toe in cover, has 6 attacks on the charge at str 6, a jump pack, fleet, rerolls hits and has potential str 10, AND has FIVE wounds with a 2+ save at t6, and a psychic hood.

What it really boils down to is that Meph IS in fact a hive tyrant, on an infantry base, who costs less than his namesake. He has a potential 24" charge range, possible str10, brings psy defense, and is really easy to hide behind anything really a tiny wall will give him cover, and a rhino will obscure him entirely. Sure, he will die to concentrated ap fire. But what if you cant see him? Uh-oh. If he manages to contact one of your ragular infantry units, guess what happens? They die. What happens when he contacts one of your vehicles? It dies. What happens when he contacts THSS, a TWC unit full of SS, or any good invul save deathstar? He dies. The trick is NOT to end up in combat with such units, which an experienced player can do most of the time.

When you play meph how he is played best, jumping out from behind cover and slaughtering an infantry unit, before jumping to another unit 24" away, you will see what he is capable of. DONT attack units with good invuls/lots of PF's. You WILL die, for no gain whatsoever. Meph is best bullying those infantry units and fire support that the rest of your army has trouble getting to. Sure, psy defense shuts him down pretty effectively, but he is still no slouch in combat. If your opponent didnt bring psy defense... oh golly, this match will be fun

Anyways, DakkaDakka, discuss. Is he really any good? Or does he belong in the "crap" pile, to hang out with death company tycho?

besides being a little low on the point side for what you get from him... no, i think he's just fine to use.
and no, i don't play the twilight marines. so i'm not saying this with any bias.
i have respect for them, as should anyone. i just know that killing him is a damn smart move ASAP, then moving on to the rest of his assuridly smaller army compared to yours.
he's tough, no doubt, but kill him with enough firepower, or close combats of your chosing, and it'll all work out.

I dislike him for the simple reason he brought a stat line to an infantry sized model that has no place what so ever being on an infantry sized model. No 1" base should be T6 W4. There is no game balance justification for his stupidly high Iniative either.

All he did was throw Hero Hammer into even higher levels. Just look at some of the stats on some of the DE characters. The numbers are now reaching levels that should only be reserved for the Star Gods or ultimate warp horror levels. They have no place on what is really just lowly humanoid (genetically/cybernetically enhanced or not).

Jabbdo wrote:

Lets look at a hive tyrant. For about 300pts, you can get a flying MC with 5 attacks on the charge at str6, rerolling hits, and having 4 wounds with a 2+ save at t6, and unreliable psychic defense (SITW).

Just to clarify, a tyrant cannot have wings and a 2+ save. He has to choose one or the other. Also a Hive Tyrant can hide inside a unit of guard, and even attach a prime so he is much less likely to die. Also the tyrant can take a number of abilities that effect the entire army such as hive commander, or give friendlies within 6' attack rerolls.

I worry less about Mephiston since it is so easy to shoot him dead if he shows his face outside of cover. Hive Tryants with Guard can be pretty nasty. They take forever to be killed even with all the AP1 fire I can put out from WH army. I just have to get close to do it.

Jayden63 wrote:I dislike him for the simple reason he brought a stat line to an infantry sized model that has no place what so ever being on an infantry sized model. No 1" base should be T6 W4. There is no game balance justification for his stupidly high Iniative either.

All he did was throw Hero Hammer into even higher levels. Just look at some of the stats on some of the DE characters. The numbers are now reaching levels that should only be reserved for the Star Gods or ultimate warp horror levels. They have no place on what is really just lowly humanoid (genetically/cybernetically enhanced or not).

Why have a stat system that goes up to 10 if you're not going to use all the options.

You should check some of the stat lines for critters back in the old Rogue Trader book. You know, like when a character could have 10 Jokaero Digital Weapons, each of which mimicked a pistol type weapon, and all of which could be fired in the same round. Oh, and they could have a heavy weapon, power armor, and one of a variety of defensive fields.

I have a big list of things to beat him with. Just use high range weapons because he doesnt have that advantage.
Lascannon
Defiler
Landraider
Oblits
Dreadnought
and so many more if you have a dreadnought or 2 you could put drop pods with dreads fire then move into CC. I have basically killed 5 mephistons with it!

Saldiven wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:I dislike him for the simple reason he brought a stat line to an infantry sized model that has no place what so ever being on an infantry sized model. No 1" base should be T6 W4. There is no game balance justification for his stupidly high Iniative either.

All he did was throw Hero Hammer into even higher levels. Just look at some of the stats on some of the DE characters. The numbers are now reaching levels that should only be reserved for the Star Gods or ultimate warp horror levels. They have no place on what is really just lowly humanoid (genetically/cybernetically enhanced or not).

Why have a stat system that goes up to 10 if you're not going to use all the options.

You should check some of the stat lines for critters back in the old Rogue Trader book. You know, like when a character could have 10 Jokaero Digital Weapons, each of which mimicked a pistol type weapon, and all of which could be fired in the same round. Oh, and they could have a heavy weapon, power armor, and one of a variety of defensive fields.

Thank god we don't play those rules anymore. Memphy just is wrong on so many levels in todays gaming rule set. He just should not exist how currently is.

I think, that although the whole T6 thing is kinda wierd, That may be the reason behind no-invul- He can't be ID'd. That and libbies don't have invuls.
way to deal with mephiston? GK grand master. Hit him and he goes pop. NFW'd.

Is he really any good?

You know the answer yourself and you've explained everyone all the reasons why he is the best HQ choice available to the BA and one of the best HQ choices all around. You forgot only one thing that I noticed, and that's the fact that he fills a mandatory HQ slot otherwise filled by 100 points of dead air. All of the so-called 'counters' to Mephiston are totally generic strategies that work against every single model in the game. Mephiston isn't in any way fragile for his points cost as long as he has a cover save (which is ridiculously easy to get for a small infantry model) and possibly even FNP from a nearby Corbulo/Priest. If he dies to shooting despite having all those things you can rest assured that the same amount of firepower could've alternatively flattened five of your tanks. You get the idea. The only time Mephiston should not be used is when named characters aren't allowed, and in that case you should play Space Wolves not Blood Angels.

The only thing I don't understand is why you're looking for validation here when the answer is quite obvious. You need to be a bit more confident in your abilities to identify a good unit choice

Therion wrote:

Is he really any good?

You know the answer yourself and you've explained everyone all the reasons why he is the best HQ choice available to the BA and one of the best HQ choices all around. You forgot only one thing that I noticed, and that's the fact that he fills a mandatory HQ slot otherwise filled by 100 points of dead air. All of the so-called 'counters' to Mephiston are totally generic strategies that work against every single model in the game. Mephiston isn't in any way fragile for his points cost as long as he has a cover save (which is ridiculously easy to get for a small infantry model) and possibly even FNP from a nearby Corbulo/Priest. If he dies to shooting despite having all those things you can rest assured that the same amount of firepower could've alternatively flattened five of your tanks. You get the idea. The only time Mephiston should not be used is when named characters aren't allowed, and in that case you should play Space Wolves not Blood Angels.

The only thing I don't understand is why you're looking for validation here when the answer is quite obvious. You need to be a bit more confident in your abilities to identify a good unit choice

Mephiston is great, just sometimes you want to take 2 librarians or 1 in a lower points game. 2 librarians with sanguinary sheild giving cover saves to your army including vehicles is especially amazing in a mech list

I think he is neither broken nor terrible. I have always killed him pretty easily with shooting prior to his getting into CC or immediately after he eats a squad. I rarely worry when I see him across from my Space Wolves or Salamanders.

I think the ability to hide a T6 4W flying character with umpteen awesome attacks behind a rhino is a bit broken. Just my two cents.

shrike wrote:I think, that although the whole T6 thing is kinda wierd, That may be the reason behind no-invul- He can't be ID'd. That and libbies don't have invuls.
way to deal with mephiston? GK grand master. Hit him and he goes pop. NFW'd.

He can be ID'd. You don't need the NFW to do it, a normal force weapon will do it just as well. the problem is of course that your force weapon carrier will be a bloody smear because of all the S10 attacks that hit before him. High invulnerable save units, tough ID units (swarmlord), large amount of poison weapons, wytches (because he will take forever killing them and will take 1-2 wounds each turn) and AP1-2 weaponry will do the trick. Against tau, Mephiston died in turn 2 as after having punched through a crisis unit he was left in the open, ready for a ton of plasma and railguns. Another game he died to rapidfiring DE warriors followed by shadowfield arcon + incubi combat.

He is a great unit though, no question about it. The problem people have with him seem to go the other way, with cries of cheese

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:I think the ability to hide a T6 4W flying character with umpteen awesome attacks behind a rhino is a bit broken.

Then consider that Mephi is actually 5W.

He is good, and I see him fielded regularly.
But he is expensive and I see him die regularly too.

I think the hate has more to do with things like Cassius being upstaged as the "toughest marine", Ahriman being upstaged as the psykic ability spammer, etc.

/shrug

I think the hate has more to do with things like Cassius being upstaged as the "toughest marine"

Aww come on give Mephiston a break! He's not really a Marine afterall. He's an emo Space Vampire, and we all know Space Vampires have to be tough so they can beat the crap out of the rival Space Werewolves.

He usually makes up his points, but out of combat or against MCs, he is pretty absurdly easy to kill. Just like most librarians.
All in all, I generally field him because he's a good SC choice and draws a lot of fire away from my other units... Leaving my reclusiarch led assault squad to mop up everything else

In my own defense, Therion, I was repeating things I have heard.

My version of that would have been "That little thing is as tough carnifex?!?--AND a better armor save?! At least the 'fex has 4 wounds- - -VERY NO!!!!"

I didn't read all the replies, so don't totally vilify me:

I am in-between on him. I absolutely hate what they've done with his fluff (they basically are now insinuating that he is a daemon prince in disguise, or at least in league with one) and his statline seems counter-intuitive. Here you have this super important librarian... a leader of the chapter... and he doesn't even get so much as an invulnerable save? Sure, he can grab cover, but you can't put him with a unit to soak up shots, and in CC he gets no protection whatsoever. A 2+ save can be defeated by any guardsman with a powerweapon, which is ridiculous. Sure they are hard-up to wound him, but that's not the point. So here's my grief: He is a CC character that is only marginally effective in CC. Throw him into a melee with a equivalent-cost unit of terminators and he's likely to get smashed. In my last game, I thought he would be able to handle a squadron of sentinels easily enough in CC, right? Wrong. He got tied up for 3 turns, finally requiring a unit of thunderhammer-wielding terminators had to rescue him... he had 2 wounds left at this point. A couple of plasmagunner shots later from standard guardsmen, he was dead. All he did throughout the entire combat was damage the weapon systems because of bad rolling on psychic power tests.

All in all, he's either hit or miss. I don't take him if I don't have to.

He is definitely an awesome cc unit and typically well worth his points. I do think a lot of players have figured out how to effectively counter him now.

I'm here to talk about a matter very close to my heart, that of chief librarian Mephiston of the Blood Angels chapter. Everywhere I go, I hear cries of "Meph is complete crap!" and "He's way overcosted lol" and also "He's just a noobslayer, a pr0 player like me knows how to neutralise him"

Yet I ask you now, is Mephiston really as bad as people say? Is he really terribly overcosted?

the last two criticisms are basically fair. I dont know about utter crap but I'm just fundamentally opposed to paying that many points for a guy who doesnt have an invulnerable save. without it its almost impossible to go toe to toe with the best assault units in the game, so mephiston's role is effectively limited to slaying hordes of normal troopers. well there are alot of different ways to kill hordes of normal guys, you dont really need to shell out that many points just to have one more way to do it. For about the same points the sanguinor is what a real slayer looks like.

hes not overcosted, hes over powered. There isnt a single unit in the game he cant touch. He can beat down a C'tan or a swarmlord, he LAUGHS at baneblades and tyrannofexes.

There should never be a Unit with jump pack, strength 10, instant death, power weapon, t 6, and 5 wounds. to make matters worse, he will out do your assassins and banshees by being initiative 7.

Ridiculous.

You should not have to tailor an army to beat him. Sternguard are even crap against him coz he has a freaking 2+!

If he had even a 5+ inv save, I would refuse to play against him. Sure plasma torrenting is good as against him, but he swept a 20 man genestealer squad off the board last game we played with him! I have no idea how they didnt easily kill him, must have been the wound on a 5+ strike last 2+ armour save passingness.

Rant over.

Jaon wrote:hes not overcosted, hes over powered. There isnt a single unit in the game he cant touch. He can beat down a C'tan or a swarmlord, he LAUGHS at baneblades and tyrannofexes.

There should never be a Unit with jump pack, strength 10, instant death, power weapon, t 6, and 5 wounds. to make matters worse, he will out do your assassins and banshees by being initiative 7.

Ridiculous.

You should not have to tailor an army to beat him. Sternguard are even crap against him coz he has a freaking 2+!

If he had even a 5+ inv save, I would refuse to play against him. Sure plasma torrenting is good as against him, but he swept a 20 man genestealer squad off the board last game we played with him! I have no idea how they didnt easily kill him, must have been the wound on a 5+ strike last 2+ armour save passingness.

Rant over.

The only time I managed to kill Mephiston was the time he charged me with my assassin prime, killing him in one round of combat. He failed his psychic ability, and then my bonesword ID him because he was I1 and I wrecked him... Teach him to assault my warriors again!

Mephiston is very powerful, the only "weakness" he has which he can't go to toe to toe with any CC power house is not even really a weakness.

Like what AF said, mephy is good at bullying weaker units bec of lack of invul save, but people seem to forget that these "weaker" units are also troops. And we all know that its troops that win most obs games. Dont even get me started with kill point games.

When used by a pro, mephy has no tactical weakness. In short, the bastard is unassailable. There's almost no GOOD way to effectively stop him from doing what he is good at.

Mephy forces opponents to do desperate maneuvers especially when he is completely hidden from LOS. While significant resources are being used against mephy, the rest of the army is stomping ass.

with the correct amount of terrain on board, meaning significant los blocking, he is pretty nasty. I mean high strenght, fast with fleet, smaill model and high toughness and int

yuber wrote: people seem to forget that these "weaker" units are also troops. And we all know that its troops that win most obs games.

thats a really good point. I might run him next time I play Blood Angels, just on the strength of that argument. good insight

But you guys are failing to see that his S10 and Jump Pack abilities are far from a given: you still have a good chance of either missing the roll or rolling a Perils of the Warp. Also he can overheat his plasma pistol.

For 50 points more than the cost of a basic unit of terminators, you have a unit that has less attacks, less survivability and the chance to off as many wounds from himself as he has to damage enemy units. Don't let your biases cloud your judgement. He's good, but not "the uber" like everybody is painting him to be.

mephiston gets 100% of his offensive power even when he's down to 1 wound. a 5 man squad of terminators down to 1 wound only gets 20% of its offensive power. I think the situation is a little more complicated than you're suggesting.

Yes he does, but that offensive power is still half of that of an equivalently-sized thunderhammer/stormshield terminator squad, which even in the BA codex is 25 points cheaper, and can be killed far more quickly. A hive tyrant, another psyker, or anything else that causes instant death can kill him instantly. Even standard power weapons can bring him down quickly. Against armies that have little-to-no access to powerweapons, sure he can seem nigh unstoppable. But for his points cost, he does exactly as much as I'd expect from a model that costs as much as a land raider.

A question, are you a user of mephiston or just somebody who has been on the receiving end of his wrath? Those of us who have used him a lot are not that impressed, while those who have fought against him generally have a higher opinion for some reason.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

yuber wrote: people seem to forget that these "weaker" units are also troops. And we all know that its troops that win most obs games.

thats a really good point. I might run him next time I play Blood Angels, just on the strength of that argument. good insight

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