Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

there's no doubt mephiston can't stand up to really hard core close assault units. but he's really good at killing troops and if you kill all your opponent's troops he can't win the game in an objective mission. the best he can do is draw. I agree he's underwhelming for his points cost if you want someone to go toe to toe with a wolf lord or hive tyrant or something like that. the sanguinor is a better choice for that. but for murdering infantry I dont think he has many competitors. its a question of what you want your model to do.

That, is the best summary of his abilities yet. As long as we can agree he is not the unit to end all units, then I am on board with what your saying.

Hes still subject to instant death too... get skulltaker into B2B with him and its GG

Zid wrote:Hes still subject to instant death too... get skulltaker into B2B with him and its GG

He is, but thanks to his mobility and outside factors, he is not very easy to catch.

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:That, is the best summary of his abilities yet. As long as we can agree he is not the unit to end all units, then I am on board with what your saying.

we def. agree about that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Zid wrote:Hes still subject to instant death too... get skulltaker into B2B with him and its GG

there are a few things that can instant death him but not many.... alot of them he can instant death first, actually, because of his higher initiatve. a space marine librarian, for instance, has a pretty low chance of instant-deathing mephiston, since mephiston is faster.

Everytime Ive fought Mephiston its been with guard, wolves or orks and he has been facedown by turn two every time. I honestly think he isnt worth a damn

Chosen Praetorian wrote:Everytime Ive fought Mephiston its been with guard, wolves or orks and he has been facedown by turn two every time. I honestly think he isnt worth a damn

Can you tell us specifically, what happened? Or better yet, battle reports.

in both of those matches he's not really at his best, its definitely true. guard can shoot him to death, wolf lords can slay him. depends on how he's using him. he should be able to hide behind rhinos in the guard match up, or find some other way to stay in cover if not out of line of sight completely.

The trouble with him is all the counters that are listed he can just avoid. Or a BA player should be smart enough to destroy the one or two counters and then he reigns with impunity. Some of that is good playing, which shouldn't be confused with being over powered, but some of it is genuine overpower.

My biggest peeve is his size. He is super easy to hide which makes getting to him too difficult for how powerful he is. Other comparably powerful things, raiders, hive tyrants, demon princes, tricked out CC units, all have huge models or huge foot prints making bringing the right tool against them fairly easy. I know he can't be buried in a squad, but he doesn't need to be. He can hide behind a hill or a rhino for a turn or two until all the tools that can get him are gone. Then he is so fast and so powerful that in even half a game he will make up his cost. There really isn't anything else in the game that can do that.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:in both of those matches he's not really at his best, its definitely true. guard can shoot him to death, wolf lords can slay him. depends on how he's using him. he should be able to hide behind rhinos in the guard match up, or find some other way to stay in cover if not out of line of sight completely.

Yes it isnt, but that doesnt mean you put him out in the open to die by pinpricks =P

I wanna see him up against GK. they will NFW ID him

Jaon wrote: he will out do your assassins and banshees by being initiative 7.

Banshees have Banshee masks which specify that they strike at initiative 10 all the time.

Mephisto vs squad of banshees...

I vote banshees to be honest, especially if they have counter attack... but wait!!! toughness 6!!

Yep, over powered.

Besides... Ahriman is so much cooler.

shrike wrote:I wanna see him up against GK. they will NFW ID him

Show me any person holding a NFW who will survive to hit him

Don't forget that a Psyhood shuts him down a little more than half the time. If he's not jumping or S10-ing he's not nearly as impressive.

I've played with him and I've played against him and he ends up dead more often than not.

I rate him as a solid character, good but not great. He does nothing for an armylist beyond being a beatstick model. He's got many advantages, but I hardly rate him broken.

If he didn't need to pass psychic tests to gain the effect of a jump pack or S10, or if he could join squads then that would be broken. In his current incarnation, though, he just isn't.

Jabbdo wrote:

shrike wrote:I wanna see him up against GK. they will NFW ID him

Show me any person holding a NFW who will survive to hit him

Grey Knight Termies. They Cause a SINGLE wound against him, and his attacks are out. They abide by old TH rules, causing him to be stunned. A GM inflicts a SINGLE wound with his NFW and he may die outright. That being said, It is subject to A LOT of variables.

It's subject to Mephiston not killing them outright at I7 before they ever swing.

Dok wrote:He usually makes up his points, but out of combat or against MCs, he is pretty absurdly easy to kill. Just like most librarians.
All in all, I generally field him because he's a good SC choice and draws a lot of fire away from my other units... Leaving my reclusiarch led assault squad to mop up everything else

How so? Most MC's lack Eternal Warrior, and with I7 he'll be striking first. Hitting on 3's with re-rolls, wounding on two's, and then has to pass a psychic check on LD 10. He smokes just about any MC in the game. Against the Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes, he's still more than a match for them.

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:That, is the best summary of his abilities yet. As long as we can agree he is not the unit to end all units, then I am on board with what your saying.

He's probably the closest I've seen in a single model.

Let's make a "Super character" shall we?

First off, we want him to be extra deadly, so he has to be a HTH unit. - check
Let's make sure he's T6, so he can't be ID'ed by vindicators/powerfists/railguns. - check
2+ save so he can't be whittled by bolters/poison weapons too easily. - check
Might as well give him more wounds then anything else just incase something DOES hit him. W5 - check
FnP for toughness overkill. Sang priests - Check
Should be strong enough to reliable tear through a land raider with his bare hands, so S10. - check
Needs to be able to instant death stuff, so force weapon. - check
High initiative so he can't be sniped in HtH before he strikes, so I7 - check
Fast as hell so he can get rip face ASAP. Fleet + jetpack. - Check
Lots of re-rolls so he's always pro. - Re-roll failed hits and WS 7, so 3+ to hit with rerolls.

Negatives
Invul save to save against Ap1 and 2 and power weapons. - FAIL
Independent character for ablative wounds. - FAIL

I don't have anything against him from a gaming stand point, other then small model is REALLY easy to hide and get cover with but from a conceptually PoV...he's slowed. You literally cannot make a single model more powerful other then slapping on an invul save and making all his psychic powers passive. He's as close to the ceilings of damage output and survivability as is mathematically possible within the game system without totally breaking it in some way.

Look at him from a Tyranid point of view. He's got more wounds, and is as tough as a bloody HIVE TYRANT and is a third the size. His armor save is better (or equal if you go with a walking tyrant). More attacks, at a much better strength, and better initiative, AND he's faster then the flying tyrant....and costs 5 points less then my winged tyrant. I can't risk my big bugs against him because he will instant death them more then 50% of the time (SitW turns 90% into 50% chance to go splat...still a brutal gamble), using medium bugs like warriors and raveners is slowed, as he instant deaths them with S10, not even needing the force weapon. Shooting is ineffective, as his 2+ save and T6 will spare him from small fire fleshborer and devourer fire, and 2+ save negates hive guard fire. Zoans have to fight psychic hoods and cover saves to maybe chip 1 or 2 wounds off. That leaves Genestealers, gaunts and gargoyles. Our best bet is hitting him with 12-30 poisoned gants or genestealers....at that point it's a battle of attrition. A good BA player will not let that happen easily.

The issue people have with him is that you have a use a very specific set of stuff to kill him (plasma, melta, aka anti-tank guns) to kill him, and he has the ability to pretty much solo anything in the game from Land Raiders to Dreadnoughts to swarms of boyz to Demon Princes and C'tan....it's more then a little silly.

Carnage
The sanguinor, a wolf lord, Abaddon, the hive tyrant, lysander, etc etc can all ace this guy. its true that you have to use a very specific set of stuff to kill him - but that specific stuff is what ALL of the best characters in the game are carrying around with them. he can attack but he cant defend, and he doesnt attack hard enough to kill those guys before they kill him. he just isnt a contender in that slot.
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Carnage
The sanguinor, a wolf lord, Abaddon, the hive tyrant, lysander, etc etc can all ace this guy. its true that you have to use a very specific set of stuff to kill him - but that specific stuff is what ALL of the best characters in the game are carrying around with them. he can attack but he cant defend, and he doesnt attack hard enough to kill those guys before they kill him. he just isnt a contender in that slot.
AF

They can?

40K Balance Meets Mephiston. Granted, this is pre-DE codex but the math-hammer is pretty compelling. I haven't read the whole thread but the first post (the math-hammer) really shows the single-model power against some of the CC "powerhouses" of 40k...assuming that the math isn't completely flawed. Again, using this just as a "check this out" in consideration to hte OP.

Yuber wrote:

Chosen Praetorian wrote:Everytime Ive fought Mephiston its been with guard, wolves or orks and he has been facedown by turn two every time. I honestly think he isnt worth a damn

Can you tell us specifically, what happened? Or better yet, battle reports.

Ive fought him twice with guard. The first time I "put a word in his ear" and moved him right out i the open before the game started and hit him with Vendettas. The second time I hit him with melta Vetts and he evaporated. I fought him once with wolves and by the time he got close I had dealt one wound then hit him with Cav. He got off Sword of Sanguinus but failed unleash rage due to rune priest then i ripped him a new donkey-cave. With orks i hit him with thrakka and laughed as he died.
Mephiston: You're only 225pts and you can have a two plus invulnerable that also gives a bad ass effect to the whole army and you're strength ten base with five attacks?!...... SHIIIIIIT!!!
Thrakka: Ummm yeah?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pheralan wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Carnage
The sanguinor, a wolf lord, Abaddon, the hive tyrant, lysander, etc etc can all ace this guy. its true that you have to use a very specific set of stuff to kill him - but that specific stuff is what ALL of the best characters in the game are carrying around with them. he can attack but he cant defend, and he doesnt attack hard enough to kill those guys before they kill him. he just isnt a contender in that slot.
AF

They can?

40K Balance Meets Mephiston. Granted, this is pre-DE codex but the math-hammer is pretty compelling. I haven't read the whole thread but the first post (the math-hammer) really shows the single-model power against some of the CC "powerhouses" of 40k...assuming that the math isn't completely flawed. Again, using this just as a "check this out" in consideration to hte OP.

At no point did i see mephiston against thrakka, lysander or any other non-suck close combat units. All i saw were Necrons, Eldar, logan and nids...wooo. so im still not convinced he doesn't blow

Chosen Praetorian wrote:At no point did i see mephiston against thrakka, lysander or any other non-suck close combat units. All i saw were Necrons, Eldar, logan and nids...wooo. so im still not convinced he doesn't blow

I think that saying he has to either be able to take on Lysander or another really good CC unit or he blows is a bit far-fetched. But I can agree to disagree. My experiences against Mephiston may have colored my judgment some.

Pheralan wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Carnage
The sanguinor, a wolf lord, Abaddon, the hive tyrant, lysander, etc etc can all ace this guy. its true that you have to use a very specific set of stuff to kill him - but that specific stuff is what ALL of the best characters in the game are carrying around with them. he can attack but he cant defend, and he doesnt attack hard enough to kill those guys before they kill him. he just isnt a contender in that slot.
AF

They can?

40K Balance Meets Mephiston. Granted, this is pre-DE codex but the math-hammer is pretty compelling. I haven't read the whole thread but the first post (the math-hammer) really shows the single-model power against some of the CC "powerhouses" of 40k...assuming that the math isn't completely flawed. Again, using this just as a "check this out" in consideration to hte OP.

they'll inflict about the same number of wounds on each other but the invulnerable save makes all the difference. Abaddon can potentially knock him out in one assault phase.
AF

Pheralan wrote:

Chosen Praetorian wrote:At no point did i see mephiston against thrakka, lysander or any other non-suck close combat units. All i saw were Necrons, Eldar, logan and nids...wooo. so im still not convinced he doesn't blow

I think that saying he has to either be able to take on Lysander or another really good CC unit or he blows is a bit far-fetched. But I can agree to disagree. My experiences against Mephiston may have colored my judgment some.

I was probably jumping the gun a bit but the way i look at this thread is "Why do people think mephiston is broke as hell?!" I dont really think he is uber terrible but i def dont think he is worth his points or all his hype. Thats why i compare him to the best cc units out there. Compared to them i dont think he is worth it at all

I am still solidly in the camp of "He's a decent character in that point range, but he isn't overpowered or broken". I found a lot of math problems with that link posted "balance meets mephiston", as the author took a lot of assumptions.

Here's a personal opinion of mine: Games are usually decided by the 3rd or 4th turn if they are a bad matchup. Out of the... i dunno... 6 or 7 games I've played with him he was usually tied up or failing his psychic tests enough where he failed to reliably kill what I set him upon by turn 3. Let's look at a particular situation:

He costs as much as a landraider, but how does he match up against a land raider?

Let's assume the land raider moved 6" at least, and for the purposes of this scenario we'll ignore starting positions and the opportunity the LR might have had to shoot off a couple of barrages before mephiston gets into CC with it. Pretend he just happens across the Land Raider, jumping from behind a building or some such thing. Also we'll assume he is not aided/hindered by outside influences, such enemy psychic hoods.

First off, he has to get his Sanguine Sword power active to even be able to damage that. Since rolling two 1's is approximately a 1/36th chance, and rolling two 6's is also a 1/36 chance, that's a 1/18th rolling a perils of the warp. Add in the chance of rolling an 11, which is approximately 1/18th chance, bringing his failure rate to 1/9 on the one test.

So our fail rate is already at 1/9 before he even starts.

However, he gets 5 attacks on the charge. He'll hit the LR on a 4+, making his high I and WS not applicable. So out of those attacks, 2.5 are expected to hit. He then needs to roll a 4+ to penetrate it, further reducing those hits to an expected 1.25 hits that penetrate. Out of those hits that penetrate, there is only a 1/3 chance that they will destroy the tank outright. That means that there is a 41% chance of him killing the tank outright on the first turn of combat, if he passes all his psychic tests. If you take into account his risk of failing the psychic tests, you have a 36/37% chance of him being able to successfully destroy a land raider on the charge.

Not good odds against a land raider, in other words. It will take him an estimated average of 3 rounds to destroy a single land raider. And I am sure that the opponent will not be ignoring him either.




Therefore, we can assume he is good at killing some units, but not others. Therefore, he is a solid character choice, but not the broken overpowered character that some would believe him to be. He is a Daemon Prince in disguise, that's all.

Fear is the mind-killer.

That is all.

Pheralan wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Carnage
The sanguinor, a wolf lord, Abaddon, the hive tyrant, lysander, etc etc can all ace this guy. its true that you have to use a very specific set of stuff to kill him - but that specific stuff is what ALL of the best characters in the game are carrying around with them. he can attack but he cant defend, and he doesnt attack hard enough to kill those guys before they kill him. he just isnt a contender in that slot.
AF

They can?

40K Balance Meets Mephiston. Granted, this is pre-DE codex but the math-hammer is pretty compelling. I haven't read the whole thread but the first post (the math-hammer) really shows the single-model power against some of the CC "powerhouses" of 40k...assuming that the math isn't completely flawed. Again, using this just as a "check this out" in consideration to hte OP.

This thread is pretty interesting and has some nice numbers. Too bad the original poster’s assumptions are full of holes. In a “perfect scenario” against a “perfect opponent” Mephiston will rock face, that is all I learnt from this thread.

In terms of tactica for using Mephiston, I must stress that any BA player willing to field Mephiston must build a list to compliment Mephiston. Mephiston is very different from a normal, run of the mill character that can be included to augment a list. The list must augment Mephiston, not the other way around! Generally, you’ll want to provide Mephiston with as much protection and support from AP2 shooting and I find that mechtastic BA lists suits this very will. Any mechtastic BA list, filled with an obscene amount of Rhinos/Razorbacks/Pred/Vindis would be a good list to support Mephiston. I think the thought of having Mephiston hiding inside that wall of armour will be scary thing for most opponents.

As a side note, I am of the opinion that Mephiston’s ruleset in its current form shouldn’t have been created. Whilst his lack of an invulnerable save and IC status gives him a giant weakness to counter his uber killiness, it doesn’t balance out his offensive capabilities. I’m not saying he is over powered, as his giant weakness to AP2 shooting says otherwise, I am saying he is unbalanced. I’ve heard of glass hammer but perhaps a term along the lines of “Glass Atomic Weapon” is more appropriate?

Pheralan wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Carnage
The sanguinor, a wolf lord, Abaddon, the hive tyrant, lysander, etc etc can all ace this guy. its true that you have to use a very specific set of stuff to kill him - but that specific stuff is what ALL of the best characters in the game are carrying around with them. he can attack but he cant defend, and he doesnt attack hard enough to kill those guys before they kill him. he just isnt a contender in that slot.
AF

They can?

40K Balance Meets Mephiston. Granted, this is pre-DE codex but the math-hammer is pretty compelling. I haven't read the whole thread but the first post (the math-hammer) really shows the single-model power against some of the CC "powerhouses" of 40k...assuming that the math isn't completely flawed. Again, using this just as a "check this out" in consideration to hte OP.

ok I looked over Judge's article. He makes a strong case for mephiston. There are a couple things I want to point out about his argument though.
I did not read the whole thing, so if I missed something mea culpa. For whatever reason when people write 40k articles they go on and on. For instance Judge says: "True Balance denotes a state of internal and external harmony, wherein every unit in every army has a role, not always called for, but equally effective when called for in proportion to risk versus reward." Why do people write stuff like this? Its a complete platitude. ANYWAY on to the argument!

1. the relevant scenarios are against Abaddon, the Swarm Lord, Night Bringer, and Logan Grimnar. Why we're looking at weird scenarios like 3 wraith lords at the same time I have NFI. As someone already pointed out he doesn't look at Lysander, Gazkull, Wolf Lords, etc. This is a big ommission. No one disputes that Mephiston will tear through 11 zerkers.

2. I dont agree with his assumption that Mephiston will get the charge because he has wings of sanguinius. If two characters were fighting one on one on an empty table this assumption would hold, but they dont and it doesnt. That extra mobility is good for a 1 shot charge. After that he isnt any more or less likely to get the charge than any other model in the game.

3. I also don't agree with his assumption that Mephiston won't get shot at, or that the fight will be strictly 1 on 1. Both of these assumptions weight the math towards mephiston because Independenet characters can and do join squads - which mephiston can't. that means they're less likely to take wounds from shooting and more likely to be in combat with allies at their backs. no one disputes that Mephiston has a powerful stat line - but not being an independent character is a disadvantage that his math doesnt (perhaps cant) take account of. My first thought when I see that my opponent is running Mephiston is that I want to shoot him, I dont want to fight him in close combat at all. And I can shoot him. It's much more difficult for him to shoot Abaddon.

Based on the above I would start Mephiston with 1 less wound than in his stat-line (which is generous IMO), I would not assume that either Mephiston or his opponent get the charge, and I would look at his chances against some more of the real ass kickers in this game. All that being said he wrote a good article and convinced me to take another look at mpehiston. AF

-What really kills mephy most of the time is psychic hood.
-Mephy is not a anti CC unit because of lack of invul saves.
-The army list MUST be built around mephy.

Carnage43 wrote:Our best bet is hitting him with 12-30 poisoned gants or genestealers....at that point it's a battle of attrition.

Lashwhip and Bonesword+Poison=One sad mephy

I agree with the rest of your post though.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:
there are a few things that can instant death him but not many.... alot of them he can instant death first, actually, because of his higher initiatve. a space marine librarian, for instance, has a pretty low chance of instant-deathing mephiston, since mephiston is faster.

This is true, but on the same token, he might be fast; but hes only as good as the rest of your list. If you cannot hide him, or hes your armys main "punch", he becomes a crutch. Of course, a strong list is only made stronger by him