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1. the relevant scenarios are against Abaddon, the Swarm Lord, Night Bringer, and Logan Grimnar. Why we're looking at weird scenarios like 3 wraith lords at the same time I have NFI. As someone already pointed out he doesn't look at Lysander, Gazkull, Wolf Lords, etc. This is a big ommission. No one disputes that Mephiston will tear through 11 zerkers.

Lysander, Ghazghkull and Wolf Lords; He mentioned that he didn't include any 5th edition stuff, as it puts up a better fight, and is closer to being balanced against the BA book.

Ghaz has no chance and is ignored because it's a laughably unbalanced fight. Meph stomps with 1-2 wounds suffered at worst.

I can run any gear setup wolf lord if you'd like, but I can almost guarantee Meph will smash them all.

Lysander will be closer, but meph has twice as many attacks, 1 more wounds, rerolls hits (on a 3+) and has higher initiative. There's no way lysander would do better then Abaddon, so this is kind of a dumb match as well.

2. I dont agree with his assumption that Mephiston will get the charge because he has wings of sanguinius. If two characters were fighting one on one on an empty table this assumption would hold, but they dont and it doesnt. That extra mobility is good for a 1 shot charge. After that he isnt any more or less likely to get the charge than any other model in the game.

Wings + fleet.....there's nothing that can stand up to him that's even remotely that fast. Rhino/Razor shield and you can bet your ass he's getting the charge unless you are baddie.

3. I also don't agree with his assumption that Mephiston won't get shot at, or that the fight will be strictly 1 on 1. Both of these assumptions weight the math towards mephiston because Independenet characters can and do join squads - which mephiston can't. that means they're less likely to take wounds from shooting and more likely to be in combat with allies at their backs. no one disputes that Mephiston has a powerful stat line - but not being an independent character is a disadvantage that his math doesnt (perhaps cant) take account of. My first thought when I see that my opponent is running Mephiston is that I want to shoot him, I dont want to fight him in close combat at all. And I can shoot him. It's much more difficult for him to shoot Abaddon.

Rhino/razor shield and/or cover save means shooting him is a bitch. Every wound he suffers before combat is a failure on the BA player's part.

Based on the above I would start Mephiston with 1 less wound than in his stat-line (which is generous IMO), I would not assume that either Mephiston or his opponent get the charge, and I would look at his chances against some more of the real ass kickers in this game. All that being said he wrote a good article and convinced me to take another look at mpehiston. AF

Zid wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:
there are a few things that can instant death him but not many.... alot of them he can instant death first, actually, because of his higher initiatve. a space marine librarian, for instance, has a pretty low chance of instant-deathing mephiston, since mephiston is faster.

This is true, but on the same token, he might be fast; but hes only as good as the rest of your list. If you cannot hide him, or hes your armys main "punch", he becomes a crutch. Of course, a strong list is only made stronger by him

yeah I agree with that.

Meph is stupid because no space marine should be T6 W5.
They should have given him eternal warrior instead of T6.

As for singling him out, am I the only one that has seen the hero delivery system?

Land Raider with 3-6 Priests, and the 2nd HQ choice who all join Meph to make a squad?

Now you have to crack AV14, before 5 to 8 furious assaulting, feeling no pain bad asses come to town.

-Matt

Carnage43 wrote:

1. the relevant scenarios are against Abaddon, the Swarm Lord, Night Bringer, and Logan Grimnar. Why we're looking at weird scenarios like 3 wraith lords at the same time I have NFI. As someone already pointed out he doesn't look at Lysander, Gazkull, Wolf Lords, etc. This is a big ommission. No one disputes that Mephiston will tear through 11 zerkers.

Lysander, Ghazghkull and Wolf Lords; He mentioned that he didn't include any 5th edition stuff, as it puts up a better fight, and is closer to being balanced against the BA book.

Ghaz has no chance and is ignored because it's a laughably unbalanced fight. Meph stomps with 1-2 wounds suffered at worst.

should have specified. *charging* ghazkull. I havent done the math but its a pretty good rule of thumb that no one can go toe to toe with gaz on the charge.

I can run any gear setup wolf lord if you'd like, but I can almost guarantee Meph will smash them all.

thunder wolf storm shield frost blade saga of the bear whatever that war gear is that makes him hit on 3s.

Lysander will be closer, but meph has twice as many attacks, 1 more wounds, rerolls hits (on a 3+) and has higher initiative. There's no way lysander would do better then Abaddon, so this is kind of a dumb match as well.

negative. lysander's storm shield will keep him safe, he's immune to mephiston's force weapon, he wounds on 2s.

2. I dont agree with his assumption that Mephiston will get the charge because he has wings of sanguinius. If two characters were fighting one on one on an empty table this assumption would hold, but they dont and it doesnt. That extra mobility is good for a 1 shot charge. After that he isnt any more or less likely to get the charge than any other model in the game.

Wings + fleet.....there's nothing that can stand up to him that's even remotely that fast. Rhino/Razor shield and you can bet your ass he's getting the charge unless you are baddie.

its not a question of mobility. If two characters were fighting one on one on an empty table it would be, but they dont and it isnt. The extra mobility is good for a 1 shot charge. After that it isnt any more or less likely to get that unit the charge than if he didnt have wings or fleet or whatever. as far as ther rhino/razor wall.... oh please. av 11.

3. I also don't agree with his assumption that Mephiston won't get shot at, or that the fight will be strictly 1 on 1. Both of these assumptions weight the math towards mephiston because Independenet characters can and do join squads - which mephiston can't. that means they're less likely to take wounds from shooting and more likely to be in combat with allies at their backs. no one disputes that Mephiston has a powerful stat line - but not being an independent character is a disadvantage that his math doesnt (perhaps cant) take account of. My first thought when I see that my opponent is running Mephiston is that I want to shoot him, I dont want to fight him in close combat at all. And I can shoot him. It's much more difficult for him to shoot Abaddon.

Rhino/razor shield and/or cover save means shooting him is a bitch. Every wound he suffers before combat is a failure on the BA player's part.

av 11.

Based on the above I would start Mephiston with 1 less wound than in his stat-line (which is generous IMO), I would not assume that either Mephiston or his opponent get the charge, and I would look at his chances against some more of the real ass kickers in this game. All that being said he wrote a good article and convinced me to take another look at mpehiston. AF

He was pitted against the "real ass kickers". Meph, Abaddon and the swarm lord are pretty much the best 3 in terms of damage output and survivability. These really are vacuum fights though. If the swarmlord had a lashwhip guard he'd likely win the fight for example. On the flip side, no good BA player would leave Meph out by himself, so you can bet you won't get a clean combat against only him either.

No. he wasnt. And no. they are not. Lysander, Gazkull, Wolf Lord, Sanguinor, Skarbrand, etc. were all missing.
Mephiston will always be more exposed than an independent character because he cant join squads.

Wolf Lord has a decent chance assuming Saga of the Bear and a Thunderwolf. Abaddon probably has just as much chance as Lysander, his damage output is much higher although is also very dependent on luck (roll a 1 for the Daemon Weapon and its game over). Remember that Lysander (and anyone else with a Thunderhammer) drops you to I1 after the first round, which significantly increases the chances of both sides killing each other at the same time.

Vect on the other hand has a decent chance of killing Mephiston in a single round, he goes first, has 3+ to hit with re-rolls and 3+ to wound which gets you 4 wounds on average (on the charge). Assuming Vect doesn't fail his 2+ invulnerable he is going to drop Mephistion in two rounds pretty comfortably and without even taking a wound (although to be fair if he fails the 2+ he dies).

@Carnage43

Lysander, Ghazghkull and Wolf Lords; He mentioned that he didn't include any 5th edition stuff, as it puts up a better fight, and is closer to being balanced against the BA book.

Ghaz has no chance and is ignored because it's a laughably unbalanced fight. Meph stomps with 1-2 wounds suffered at worst.

I can run any gear setup wolf lord if you'd like, but I can almost guarantee Meph will smash them all.

Lysander will be closer, but meph has twice as many attacks, 1 more wounds, rerolls hits (on a 3+) and has higher initiative. There's no way lysander would do better then Abaddon, so this is kind of a dumb match as well.

I ran the numbers on warriors with this combo and 5 kill him before he swings and is the same amount of points. WHO WOULD ALLOW THIS? Walking warriors will NEVER catch him. Using shrikes just attracts missile, melta and lascannon fire really fast. A LW/BS tyrant will not do enough damage to kill meph before going splat. Not to mention that decked warriors aren't a great choice in any other situation either, and I'd not likely field them in an all-comers list.

This is a pretty weak argument as the same could be said for the player fielding the opposing special characters. What you are omitting is:
1. The special characters would not be fighting alone. Judges assumptions assuming a one on one SC showdown was pretty unrealistic. Lysander’s chances of defeating Meph is a lot higher when he is rolling with a squad of TH/SS terminators (and what player fields Lysander alone?). Judge’s unrealistic assumptions in the thread assumed that Meph would be in a one on one fight against an enemy special character of equal cost.

2. Why would the enemy commander assault Meph (the BA player’s hammer unit) with his own hammer? The opposing player would most likely stall meph with a sacrificial unit and attack him with fire power (the correct strategy to deal with Meph) whilst the rest of the army (i.e. the part that matters) is focused on.

3. Any argument or assumptions that a unit will always get the charge, will never let a unit assault is completely arbitrary (as it completely ignores unit/terrain placement). Whilst some things are more likely to occur than others due to probability and external factors, they are never always an “automatic guarantee”.

yeah. to echo the above, mephiston wont last even a single turn against lysander and his hamminators. which was the original point about mephiston. not that he isnt good at killing hordes of infantry. but that he cant go toe to toe with the really hardcore units.

HawaiiMatt wrote:Meph is stupid because no space marine should be T6 W5.
They should have given him eternal warrior instead of T6.

As for singling him out, am I the only one that has seen the hero delivery system?

Land Raider with 3-6 Priests, and the 2nd HQ choice who all join Meph to make a squad?

Now you have to crack AV14, before 5 to 8 furious assaulting, feeling no pain bad asses come to town.

-Matt

Mephy cant form squads.

Son, I am disappoint.

Carnage43 wrote:

1. the relevant scenarios are against Abaddon, the Swarm Lord, Night Bringer, and Logan Grimnar. Why we're looking at weird scenarios like 3 wraith lords at the same time I have NFI. As someone already pointed out he doesn't look at Lysander, Gazkull, Wolf Lords, etc. This is a big ommission. No one disputes that Mephiston will tear through 11 zerkers.

Lysander, Ghazghkull and Wolf Lords; He mentioned that he didn't include any 5th edition stuff, as it puts up a better fight, and is closer to being balanced against the BA book.

Ghaz has no chance and is ignored because it's a laughably unbalanced fight. Meph stomps with 1-2 wounds suffered at worst.

I can run any gear setup wolf lord if you'd like, but I can almost guarantee Meph will smash them all.

Lysander will be closer, but meph has twice as many attacks, 1 more wounds, rerolls hits (on a 3+) and has higher initiative. There's no way lysander would do better then Abaddon, so this is kind of a dumb match as well.

2. I dont agree with his assumption that Mephiston will get the charge because he has wings of sanguinius. If two characters were fighting one on one on an empty table this assumption would hold, but they dont and it doesnt. That extra mobility is good for a 1 shot charge. After that he isnt any more or less likely to get the charge than any other model in the game.

Wings + fleet.....there's nothing that can stand up to him that's even remotely that fast. Rhino/Razor shield and you can bet your ass he's getting the charge unless you are baddie.

3. I also don't agree with his assumption that Mephiston won't get shot at, or that the fight will be strictly 1 on 1. Both of these assumptions weight the math towards mephiston because Independenet characters can and do join squads - which mephiston can't. that means they're less likely to take wounds from shooting and more likely to be in combat with allies at their backs. no one disputes that Mephiston has a powerful stat line - but not being an independent character is a disadvantage that his math doesnt (perhaps cant) take account of. My first thought when I see that my opponent is running Mephiston is that I want to shoot him, I dont want to fight him in close combat at all. And I can shoot him. It's much more difficult for him to shoot Abaddon.

Rhino/razor shield and/or cover save means shooting him is a bitch. Every wound he suffers before combat is a failure on the BA player's part.

Based on the above I would start Mephiston with 1 less wound than in his stat-line (which is generous IMO), I would not assume that either Mephiston or his opponent get the charge, and I would look at his chances against some more of the real ass kickers in this game. All that being said he wrote a good article and convinced me to take another look at mpehiston. AF

Its people like you that keep me from posting frequently because i usually end up calling you stupid and get banned for awhile. Do you really think thrakka cant handle him? I guess five base attacks at S 10 against a guy that has no invulnerable save isnt enough. Oh wait, did i mention he has a two plus invulnerable for two player turns with eternal warrior? Cause thats kinda important. And a wolf lord on a mount with a hammer and wolf tooth with saga of the bear and storm shield is also enough. Ive also fight Lysander against Meph and he drops most of the time. You need to remember that the hammers from lysander and lord cause him to hit at I 1 for the next combat. Now stop being a giant slow and think before you talk.

Yuber wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:Meph is stupid because no space marine should be T6 W5.
They should have given him eternal warrior instead of T6.

As for singling him out, am I the only one that has seen the hero delivery system?

Land Raider with 3-6 Priests, and the 2nd HQ choice who all join Meph to make a squad?

Now you have to crack AV14, before 5 to 8 furious assaulting, feeling no pain bad asses come to town.

-Matt

Mephy cant form squads.

Son, I am disappoint.

What happens is ICs can not join single models.

Its people like you that keep me from posting frequently because i usually end up calling you stupid and get banned for awhile. Do you really think thrakka cant handle him? I guess five base attacks at S 10 against a guy that has no invulnerable save isnt enough. Oh wait, did i mention he has a two plus invulnerable for two player turns with eternal warrior? Cause thats kinda important. And a wolf lord on a mount with a hammer and wolf tooth with saga of the bear and storm shield is also enough. Ive also fight Lysander against Meph and he drops most of the time. You need to remember that the hammers from lysander and lord cause him to hit at I 1 for the next combat. Now stop being a giant slow and think before you talk.

No need to get upset over a math hammer match. If you throw the dice enough a single ork boy will solo Mephiston, so your "Lysander versus Meph in my experience is Lysander win" is random, not math. Math says Lysander takes a dirt nap, but only JUST. Meph down to 1 or 2 wounds.

Ghazzy's Waagh ability is typically discounted as it's not usable 100% of the same...in fact it's "up" less then 16% of the combat phases in the game typically and it would be foolish to use the waaagh ability JUST to kill Meph, it should be used when it will get the most for your entire army. His attacks still need to hit (on a 4) and wound (on a 2), so each attack has less then an even chance to wound Meph. You'd need ~12 attack to kill Meph with ghazzy. Even giving him the charge bonus you are looking at 3 combat phases, so the waagh drops anyways. Meph takes ~4.16 wounds in the first 2 combat phases and meph deals ~1.35. Next phase Meph is full power, doing 2.77 more wounds....killing ghazzy before he swings. So waagh makes it really really close (closer then the wolf lord actually), but meph still wins.

The Wolf Lord would need a storm shield, saga of the "not instant deathable" (bear?) and Thunder wolf mount, Wolf tooth necklace and I'm going to go with T-hammer as your best bet. Less wounds then lysander, but does significantly more damage....I'm gunna throw down the math because it might actually go the Lord's way. Throw in the huge charge range of the wolf cav and we have a contender. Oddly, the lord is the same amount of points....hah.

Say neither charged, no psychic interference from rune priests.
So, S10 Thunder hammer, hitting on 3s, wounding on 2s with 5 attacks.

Meph is up first. 5 attacks, S10, hits on 3s with a re-roll, and 58% of the time gets to re-roll his 2+ to wound due to gaze. I'll split the difference on Gaze and call it 50/50 for math simplicity...this works in the lord's favor by a fraction of a %.

Meph scores ~1.35 wounds
Lord strikes back scoring ~2.77 wounds

After 1 phase, Meph at 2.23, Lord at 1.65....now they strike at the same time thanks to the T-hammer.

Phase 2; 2.7 wounds on the lord at this points versus a dead Meph at ~5.55.

Hrm. Looks like the lord scapes by with a win, but there's a decent chance he goes splat at the same time. Meph is ironically 1 attack short of mathematically tying the combat....so there's the charge bonus for you Interesting fight though.

Tzeentchling9 wrote:

Yuber wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:Meph is stupid because no space marine should be T6 W5.
They should have given him eternal warrior instead of T6.

As for singling him out, am I the only one that has seen the hero delivery system?

Land Raider with 3-6 Priests, and the 2nd HQ choice who all join Meph to make a squad?

Now you have to crack AV14, before 5 to 8 furious assaulting, feeling no pain bad asses come to town.

-Matt

Mephy cant form squads.

Son, I am disappoint.

What happens is ICs can not join single models.

What happens is Mephiston is not an IC, there have been countless threads on this. FAQ states he cannot be joined by any other units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Carnage43 wrote:

Its people like you that keep me from posting frequently because i usually end up calling you stupid and get banned for awhile. Do you really think thrakka cant handle him? I guess five base attacks at S 10 against a guy that has no invulnerable save isnt enough. Oh wait, did i mention he has a two plus invulnerable for two player turns with eternal warrior? Cause thats kinda important. And a wolf lord on a mount with a hammer and wolf tooth with saga of the bear and storm shield is also enough. Ive also fight Lysander against Meph and he drops most of the time. You need to remember that the hammers from lysander and lord cause him to hit at I 1 for the next combat. Now stop being a giant slow and think before you talk.

No need to get upset over a math hammer match. If you throw the dice enough a single ork boy will solo Mephiston, so your "Lysander versus Meph in my experience is Lysander win" is random, not math. Math says Lysander takes a dirt nap, but only JUST. Meph down to 1 or 2 wounds.

Ghazzy's Waagh ability is typically discounted as it's not usable 100% of the same...in fact it's "up" less then 16% of the combat phases in the game typically and it would be foolish to use the waaagh ability JUST to kill Meph, it should be used when it will get the most for your entire army. His attacks still need to hit (on a 4) and wound (on a 2), so each attack has less then an even chance to wound Meph. You'd need ~12 attack to kill Meph with ghazzy. Even giving him the charge bonus you are looking at 3 combat phases, so the waagh drops anyways. Meph takes ~4.16 wounds in the first 2 combat phases and meph deals ~1.35. Next phase Meph is full power, doing 2.77 more wounds....killing ghazzy before he swings. So waagh makes it really really close (closer then the wolf lord actually), but meph still wins.

The Wolf Lord would need a storm shield, saga of the "not instant deathable" (bear?) and Thunder wolf mount, Wolf tooth necklace and I'm going to go with T-hammer as your best bet. Less wounds then lysander, but does significantly more damage....I'm gunna throw down the math because it might actually go the Lord's way. Throw in the huge charge range of the wolf cav and we have a contender. Oddly, the lord is the same amount of points....hah.

Say neither charged, no psychic interference from rune priests.
So, S10 Thunder hammer, hitting on 3s, wounding on 2s with 5 attacks.

Meph is up first. 5 attacks, S10, hits on 3s with a re-roll, and 58% of the time gets to re-roll his 2+ to wound due to gaze. I'll split the difference on Gaze and call it 50/50 for math simplicity...this works in the lord's favor by a fraction of a %.

Meph scores ~1.35 wounds
Lord strikes back scoring ~2.77 wounds

After 1 phase, Meph at 2.23, Lord at 1.65....now they strike at the same time thanks to the T-hammer.

Phase 2; 2.7 wounds on the lord at this points versus a dead Meph at ~5.55.

Hrm. Looks like the lord scapes by with a win, but there's a decent chance he goes splat at the same time. Meph is ironically 1 attack short of mathematically tying the combat....so there's the charge bonus for you Interesting fight though.

Why do you play the game at all? Looks like everything is a variable to be accounted for.

Everything IS a variable to be accounted for. Being good at the game is understanding every part of it on every level you are able to and exploiting that knowledge to your advantage.

Don't lie and say you don't do this, because every person that plays the game does it on some level...i just do it to 2 decimal places.

Apparently you and I play games for different reasons.

I play games to have a good time. You, apparently, are "TFG" who plays to WAAC.

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:Apparently you and I play games for different reasons.

I play games to have a good time. You, apparently, are "TFG" who plays to WAAC.

As an Ultramarine and Tyranid player...I'm offended at that comment.

Understanding the game isn't the same as playing WAAC style actually.

Manners people. Don’t want to get this thread locked.

Carnage43 wrote:Everything IS a variable to be accounted for. Being good at the game is understanding every part of it on every level you are able to and exploiting that knowledge to your advantage.

Don't lie and say you don't do this, because every person that plays the game does it on some level...i just do it to 2 decimal places.

I can endorse this approach. though you're still wrong about mephiston of course

Carnage43 wrote:Everything IS a variable to be accounted for. Being good at the game is understanding every part of it on every level you are able to and exploiting that knowledge to your advantage.

Don't lie and say you don't do this, because every person that plays the game does it on some level...i just do it to 2 decimal places.

You do it wrong.

For example, Ghazkull.

"Ghazzy's Waagh ability is typically discounted as it's not usable 100% of the [time]"

The Waagh is a player-activated ability that can be chosen to activate, essentially, whenever the player wants. It's completely wrong to discount this; if I have Ghaz and you have Meph there is no reason for me not to save the Waagh specifically for close combat with Meph. It's stupid to say that it's applicable in less than 16% of game turns; I choose when to apply it. It is going to be applicable in 100% of game turns where Ghaz and Meph initiate a combat.

Not only that, but when Meph does charge he's going to be fighting Ghaz and the hidden PK Nob. That's why these 1-for-1 comparisons are stupid.

Similarly your Meph v Lysander and Meph v Wolf Lord "mathhammer"; you assume that he gets off Wings and Sword. In reality, with psychic hoods/rune staffs FREAKING EVERYWHERE these days, he only gets one power a turn.

And Lysander rarely is encountered on foot, alone; the Crusader and Hammerbros is another 500 points but it's always there. If that squad so much as touches Meph (with its 22" charge radius) he's gone.

Mathhammer says that Mephiston never loses to IG. He's always out of LoS, always crushing their tanks and squads in CC. Meph vs CCS with 4 plasma guns is Meph winning every time in the theoretical bubble if your assumption is that he always has cover/LoS blocked until CC.

In reality, Meph dies to plasma all the time. That's where you're fundamentally doing it wrong, because even though your math is correct, your assumptions are absolutely not.

meph up against GK grand master w/CCW and NFW-
GK hits on 4's, wounds on 4's and causes ID. so in one turn he deals 1 wound- he just needs to pass a psychic test (Ld 10, so he probably will)
Meph hits on 4's, wounds on 4's and doesn't cause ID IIRC (no BA codex)- what is his Initiative, attacks and strength?

shrike wrote:meph up against GK grand master w/CCW and NFW-
GK hits on 4's, wounds on 4's and causes ID. so in one turn he deals 1 wound- he just needs to pass a psychic test (Ld 10, so he probably will)
Meph hits on 4's, wounds on 4's and doesn't cause ID IIRC (no BA codex)- what is his Initiative, attacks and strength?

i thought force weapons cause instant death? i maybe wrong

shrike wrote:meph up against GK grand master w/CCW and NFW-
GK hits on 4's, wounds on 4's and causes ID. so in one turn he deals 1 wound- he just needs to pass a psychic test (Ld 10, so he probably will)
Meph hits on 4's, wounds on 4's and doesn't cause ID IIRC (no BA codex)- what is his Initiative, attacks and strength?

Meph hits on 3s, wounds on 3s, chances to reroll, and ID at S10 striking at I7.

GK has a chance to block some of his powers with the hood, but even without the hood Meph can kill him on average. GKGM is a poor match up unless he and Meph can go simul, or he has ablative wounds from retinue.

mephiston will probably insta-gib the grand master first. unless the grand master is EW I dont recall

The GKGM is not an EW. Also Meph has a Psychic hood to attempt to stop the NFW. Essentially Meph gets 2 chances to ID the GKGM as he can try for s10 and failing that he can try to use the force weapon...The GKGM can take the old retinue though so unless they are all dead he can't be singled out...I have no idea why someone would want to throw meph as a squad of s6 power weapons with invul saves anyway. He should be quick enough and have the assets to avoid combat with them...then again Land raiders do nasty things.

Cheers,
~Volkan

You do it wrong.

For example, Ghazkull.

"Ghazzy's Waagh ability is typically discounted as it's not usable 100% of the [time]"

The Waagh is a player-activated ability that can be chosen to activate, essentially, whenever the player wants. It's completely wrong to discount this; if I have Ghaz and you have Meph there is no reason for me not to save the Waagh specifically for close combat with Meph. It's stupid to say that it's applicable in less than 16% of game turns; I choose when to apply it. It is going to be applicable in 100% of game turns where Ghaz and Meph initiate a combat.

You mean, "In my shooting phase". So it doesn't work if Meph charges you (unless you pop it early, in which case meph just waits it out). Like I said, it would be unwise in a gaming situation to save an army wide special movement ability for the fight between Meph and ghazzy. The correct thing would be to use the ability when it benefits your army on the whole the most and just use a boyz squad with a hidden powerfist to whittle Meph a bit. Regardless, Meph won/tied with Waagh up anyways.

Not only that, but when Meph does charge he's going to be fighting Ghaz and the hidden PK Nob. That's why these 1-for-1 comparisons are stupid.

Yeah, 1v1 battles at full strength are not overly common, but they do happen. They aren't meant to be a be-all-end-all bible to live by, as there's a thousand variables to account for in a game. They are meant to be a measuring stick to show how powerful a character's tanking and damage abilities are compared to each other. If Meph beat ghazzy, then you can bet Meph will slice up more marines/dreads/vehicles then Ghazzy will.

Similarly your Meph v Lysander and Meph v Wolf Lord "mathhammer"; you assume that he gets off Wings and Sword. In reality, with psychic hoods/rune staffs FREAKING EVERYWHERE these days, he only gets one power a turn.

Yeah, agreed. Although I don't 100% agree on the prevalence of psychic defense. In 30+ games I've come up against it twice (wolves and BA with a GKGM). Also, Sword isn't even necessary most of the time, as he's S6 and able to instant death with the force weapon anyways. Wings only really matters for getting the charge, and that's IF he isn't being transported (throw him in an empty rhino/razor/LR/SR...stupid IMO, but I've seen it done).

And Lysander rarely is encountered on foot, alone; the Crusader and Hammerbros is another 500 points but it's always there. If that squad so much as touches Meph (with its 22" charge radius) he's gone.

Agreed, but if you give Lysander a bodyguard + LR, then you need to match it up with an equal amount of points for Meph...and the math goes crazy and breaks down. Might as well just play a game at that point

Mathhammer says that Mephiston never loses to IG. He's always out of LoS, always crushing their tanks and squads in CC. Meph vs CCS with 4 plasma guns is Meph winning every time in the theoretical bubble if your assumption is that he always has cover/LoS blocked until CC.

In reality, Meph dies to plasma all the time. That's where you're fundamentally doing it wrong, because even though your math is correct, your assumptions are absolutely not.

He's not unkillable, but he's extremely difficult to kill before he guts something of yours and get caught in the open. THAT is when I've typically seen him bite it, as he out paces his screen and eats something, only to die afterwards. But that's where you use tactics and combined assaults with other elements to hopefully protect him. The whole math hammer thing is just to show how absurdly tough, deadly and fast he is compared to units and characters of other armies.

Carnage43 wrote:Agreed, but if you give Lysander a bodyguard + LR, then you need to match it up with an equal amount of points for Meph...and the math goes crazy and breaks down. Might as well just play a game at that point

And that's the whole point. Nobody plays 250 point hero duels, which is typically the level of the analysis run to say that Mephiston (or whoever) is broken. In reality, Meph is basically a non-entity in a medium-to-strong codex and he's neither going to win nor lose fights by himself.

As you said, "the math goes crazy at that point". I'm not disagreeing that 40k is predictable and easy to plug into a spreadsheet, but as with most quantitative models, there's very little value to be extracted from their conclusions unless you can validate the assumptions.

Gibbsey wrote:

shrike wrote:meph up against GK grand master w/CCW and NFW-
GK hits on 4's, wounds on 4's and causes ID. so in one turn he deals 1 wound- he just needs to pass a psychic test (Ld 10, so he probably will)
Meph hits on 4's, wounds on 4's and doesn't cause ID IIRC (no BA codex)- what is his Initiative, attacks and strength?

i thought force weapons cause instant death? i maybe wrong

only on a passed psychic test.

anyways- GKGM- 145pts meph- 250pts
so if i spend 100pts on retinue, that's GKGM and 2 TAGK- both NFW's, so ID as well form them.

Illumini wrote:

shrike wrote:I think, that although the whole T6 thing is kinda wierd, That may be the reason behind no-invul- He can't be ID'd. That and libbies don't have invuls.
way to deal with mephiston? GK grand master. Hit him and he goes pop. NFW'd.

He can be ID'd. You don't need the NFW to do it, a normal force weapon will do it just as well. the problem is of course that your force weapon carrier will be a bloody smear because of all the S10 attacks that hit before him. High invulnerable save units, tough ID units (swarmlord), large amount of poison weapons, wytches (because he will take forever killing them and will take 1-2 wounds each turn) and AP1-2 weaponry will do the trick. Against tau, Mephiston died in turn 2 as after having punched through a crisis unit he was left in the open, ready for a ton of plasma and railguns. Another game he died to rapidfiring DE warriors followed by shadowfield arcon + incubi combat.

He is a great unit though, no question about it. The problem people have with him seem to go the other way, with cries of cheese

Agreed, but the NFW w/ Grand Master would actually be one of my main choices, as I have that and Mephiston I know that the GM although just as good in his own way does not get the cry of cheese.

Back on track the NFW would be better because it is S6 whereas I see where you are coming from (NFW insta killing anything) most 'normal' force weapons will need a to wound and the added invulnerable 5+ or 4+ (if you like) makes it even better.

sourclams wrote:

Carnage43 wrote:Agreed, but if you give Lysander a bodyguard + LR, then you need to match it up with an equal amount of points for Meph...and the math goes crazy and breaks down. Might as well just play a game at that point

And that's the whole point. Nobody plays 250 point hero duels, which is typically the level of the analysis run to say that Mephiston (or whoever) is broken. In reality, Meph is basically a non-entity in a medium-to-strong codex and he's neither going to win nor lose fights by himself.

As you said, "the math goes crazy at that point". I'm not disagreeing that 40k is predictable and easy to plug into a spreadsheet, but as with most quantitative models, there's very little value to be extracted from their conclusions unless you can validate the assumptions.

qft

give the GKGM a SS and NFW then 2+/3++ ID NFW'd
what's meph's initiative?

higher than just about anything. keepers of secrets, banshees, and a few DE characters will strike before him. not much else.