Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

what is his initiative? 7? 8? 9? what?

7, 8 with furious charge from a sang priest.

FYI, GKGM's storm shield are 4++ invul and don't work vs ranged attacks. Also, TA GKs don't have force weapons, just S6 power waepons. GKGM won't beat Meph solo, regardless of gear.

shrike wrote:give the GKGM a SS and NFW then 2+/3++ ID NFW'd
what's meph's initiative?

Seriously, you might want to read the DH codex before you comment on things like this, not only does GKTMs not get Force Weapons, as you claimed earlier in this thread, but DH Storm Shileds are only 4++. What WOULD be interesting though would be a Grey Knight Brother-Captain with a retinue of 4, the retinue having TH/SS, coming in at 245 points. If only one TH guy survives, that'll mean almost certain death for Meph, as the DH Thunder Hammers prevents wounded models from attacking and thus can lock you down forever.

oops sorry. Lost my codex and haven't read it in a while.
Presumed the GK SS were the same as SM SS. oops.
anyways- GKGM & 2 TH/SS TAGKs.
or a libby w/ quickening and mightof the ancients- I10, S6 FW. there. hits on 4's, wounds on 4's, ID (on a psychic test)
or zogwort. Squigged.

shrike wrote:
or a libby w/ quickening and mightof the ancients- I10, S6 FW. there. hits on 4's, wounds on 4's, ID (on a psychic test)

or zogwort. Squigged.

1)That libby just used 3 psy powers....

2)Mephy is not an IC. No Squigging for him.

Shrike, I would fully recommend you know what you are talking about before you start trying to argue something.
I honestly don't mean that in an offensive way, I'm just being truthful.
When you are having to ask numerous questions and making numerous mistakes, it doesn't bode well for your argument...

Take it easy on the guy, he's obviously new.

Libby on Mephiston is a bad matchup for the Libby... Both have psychic hoods so powers will be nerfed for both. The difference is that mephy already hits like a daemon, even without the powers, and uses initiative 7 at that.

Jayden63 wrote:

Saldiven wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:I dislike him for the simple reason he brought a stat line to an infantry sized model that has no place what so ever being on an infantry sized model. No 1" base should be T6 W4. There is no game balance justification for his stupidly high Iniative either.

All he did was throw Hero Hammer into even higher levels. Just look at some of the stats on some of the DE characters. The numbers are now reaching levels that should only be reserved for the Star Gods or ultimate warp horror levels. They have no place on what is really just lowly humanoid (genetically/cybernetically enhanced or not).

Why have a stat system that goes up to 10 if you're not going to use all the options.

You should check some of the stat lines for critters back in the old Rogue Trader book. You know, like when a character could have 10 Jokaero Digital Weapons, each of which mimicked a pistol type weapon, and all of which could be fired in the same round. Oh, and they could have a heavy weapon, power armor, and one of a variety of defensive fields.

Thank god we don't play those rules anymore. Memphy just is wrong on so many levels in todays gaming rule set. He just should not exist how currently is.

Actually he didn't really 'bring' that stat line, it's a remnant from 2nd edition when stats like that were not so uncommon. Though even then he was a bit special, his original Stat line was WS8 BS6 S7 T6 W4 I9 A4 Ld10 3+ Save and an additional 5++ invulnerable save. He has been toned down a little since then, just not as much as other units. Back then an ordinary 'off the shelf' Space Marine Captain was WS7 BS7 S5 T5 W3 I7 A3 Ld10, and could be given a massively enhanced stat line just by paying an extra 25 points for an upgrade called Combat Drugs. Oddly Mephiston's original stat line is very reminiscent of a quite unremarkable character (I.e. Brother Calistarius) with the Combat Drugs upgrade. If you take a closer look at the Mephiston model you might notice under his cape, two little syringes still hang from his belt...

I never noticed the syringes... Very cool indeed !

shrike wrote:

Gibbsey wrote:

shrike wrote:meph up against GK grand master w/CCW and NFW-
GK hits on 4's, wounds on 4's and causes ID. so in one turn he deals 1 wound- he just needs to pass a psychic test (Ld 10, so he probably will)
Meph hits on 4's, wounds on 4's and doesn't cause ID IIRC (no BA codex)- what is his Initiative, attacks and strength?

i thought force weapons cause instant death? i maybe wrong

only on a passed psychic test.

anyways- GKGM- 145pts meph- 250pts
so if i spend 100pts on retinue, that's GKGM and 2 TAGK- both NFW's, so ID as well form them.

Sorry, only the Grand Masters NFW is actually a force weapon, for the terminators its just a str6 PW.

Yeah, meph would kill all 3 of them before they got to strike


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just another thing I'd like to bring up: Mephistons lack of invul. Its this that prevents him from going toe to toe with any really good CC units and standing a decent chance of winning, and its the problem most people seem to have with him. The most common reason I hear people malign Mephiston is because he lacks an invul, and sometimes due to his reliance on psy powers to be fully effective.

So, I ask, if you could give him an invul, or some other gear, what would you give him? State new gear and a new points cost, please, stay reasonable. Dont say "give him a BA shadowfield for a 2++ and str10 and JP standard, reduce his points to 100" -.-

A best case scenario for me would be him receiving a storm shield, and having his points bumped up to 275. I'd also like him to receive a JP standard, because even you average Joe assault marine gets one, so why doesnt Meph? Plus then he can FINALLY deepstrike, so you can use him in a DOA army. ut lets forget the storm shield, because I can already hear the cries of "cheese" that would follow, so lets give him a 4++ (iron halo or equivalent) and a JP standard, and bump his points up to 280.

Thoughts?

No, just no. Mephiston should not, under any circumstances, have an Invulnerable Save. It's really that simple, give him an Iron Halo and wave goodbye to his balance, his cost would have to skyrocket to unfeasible ranges if that happened.

sorry guys- I do not have the BA codex. I will by christmas, but until then I shall shut up. I had the DH one, but I can't find it.
so meph is hitting on 4's, wounding on 4's right?
so could a termie libby w/SS survive a round of combat against him?
If so- the libby hits on 4's, wounds on 4's, and deals ID.
could the sanguinor beat him?
okay. shutting up.
...
>comms end<

shrike wrote:sorry guys- I do not have the BA codex. I will by christmas, but until then I shall shut up. I had the DH one, but I can't find it.
so meph is hitting on 4's, wounding on 4's right?
so could a termie libby w/SS survive a round of combat against him?
If so- the libby hits on 4's, wounds on 4's, and deals ID.
could the sanguinor beat him?
okay. shutting up.
...
>comms end<

Mephiston is WS 7, S 6, T 6. Not only is he hitting on 3s (likely with a re-roll) and wounding on 2s (very good odds of having a re-roll here, too) but he will be inflicting Instant Death, as well - by virtue of Sanguine Sword, or by using his own Force Weapon. Being a Librarian himself, and all.

The Librarian, assuming he survives, is hitting on 4s and wounding on 6s.

Sanguinor is best used to slay enemy HQ choices. He will kill Mephiston, in no uncertain terms.

libby wounds on 4's. S6.
so it's- 3.526 hits, 3 wounds, 1 unsaved ID...ah.
libby attacks- 0.75 ID unsaved...ah.
but the libby's nearly 2 times cheaper (140pts-250pts)
so if there were 2 libbies- one would die before he could attack, and the other has a decent chance of ID'ing.
how about an inquisitor lord w/ henchmen?
3 warrior henchmen w/SS
Inquisitor lord has NFW and SS. 140pts IIRC.
so that means meph kills a warrior- 3.526 hits, 3 wounds, 1.5 unsaved.
Inq. strikes back with NFW, dealing 0.75 unsaved. ID.
5 wounds left (2 from the warriors).
NFW is still a FW because the wielder's a psyker, right? hopefully.
if it is a FW, capow. Done. If not...

Shrike, there is so much wrong with every single post you have posted in this thread, I thought you said you would bow out of this discussion?

@Jabbdo: Stormshield for 25pts for Mephiston? Or halo + jump pack for 30? Are you daft? Mephiston is fine as he is because he doesn't have an invulnerable save and because he is dependent on his psychic powers. And you want to take these weaknesses away for 30 pts? You would break the game with such sillyness.

Illumini wrote:Shrike, there is so much wrong with every single post you have posted in this thread, I thought you said you would bow out of this discussion?

a) I am making a valid point (If it is a FW)
b) I have not taken a blood oath to shut up. Freedom of speech.
c) What am I posting wrong?
d) I, like others in this thread, have been going based on what others have said concerning meph.
e) I am, at least, making an effort to bu the BA codex.
f) please stop picking at me, or this thread will most likely be blocked. Keep the peace.

Illumini wrote:Shrike, there is so much wrong with every single post you have posted in this thread, I thought you said you would bow out of this discussion?

@Jabbdo: Stormshield for 25pts for Mephiston? Or halo + jump pack for 30? Are you daft? Mephiston is fine as he is because he doesn't have an invulnerable save and because he is dependent on his psychic powers. And you want to take these weaknesses away for 30 pts? You would break the game with such sillyness.

I dont consider myself daft, no.

I know Mephiston is fine, I was merely attempting to begin discussion on a possible reasonable invulnerable save for him to receive. Obviously this was foolish of me, as Meph should apparently NEVER be given an invul.

Sorry for my speculation.

Jabbdo wrote:

Illumini wrote:Shrike, there is so much wrong with every single post you have posted in this thread, I thought you said you would bow out of this discussion?

@Jabbdo: Stormshield for 25pts for Mephiston? Or halo + jump pack for 30? Are you daft? Mephiston is fine as he is because he doesn't have an invulnerable save and because he is dependent on his psychic powers. And you want to take these weaknesses away for 30 pts? You would break the game with such sillyness.

I dont consider myself daft, no.

I know Mephiston is fine, I was merely attempting to begin discussion on a possible reasonable invulnerable save for him to receive. Obviously this was foolish of me, as Meph should apparently NEVER be given an invul.

Sorry for my speculation.

but then he would be the equivalent of a carnifex with 4+ invul. ouch. His points cost would skyrocket, and he will be very OP.

shrike wrote:libby wounds on 4's. S6.
so it's- 3.526 hits, 3 wounds, 1 unsaved ID...ah.
libby attacks- 0.75 ID unsaved...ah.
but the libby's nearly 2 times cheaper (140pts-250pts)
so if there were 2 libbies- one would die before he could attack, and the other has a decent chance of ID'ing.
how about an inquisitor lord w/ henchmen?
3 warrior henchmen w/SS
Inquisitor lord has NFW and SS. 140pts IIRC.
so that means meph kills a warrior- 3.526 hits, 3 wounds, 1.5 unsaved.
Inq. strikes back with NFW, dealing 0.75 unsaved. ID.
5 wounds left (2 from the warriors).
NFW is still a FW because the wielder's a psyker, right? hopefully.
if it is a FW, capow. Done. If not...

This.

This is what you are doing wrong.

You dont know Meph's stats.

You dont know a librarians stats.

You dont know an inquisitors on his henchmens stats.

And yet you make claims on all of these models' performances based on incorrect or missing information.

I know the libby, stats, but i'll just shut up now.
...

shrike wrote:libby wounds on 4's. S6.

Really?

IIRC he's talking about under the effects of the Psychic Power (quickening?), nonetheless it doesn't matter and he's dropped the subject and so should you IMO...

I put him on my Ignore List. Please be so kind as not to quote the troll so I don't have to see his replies. Thanks so much.

Jabbdo wrote:

Illumini wrote:Shrike, there is so much wrong with every single post you have posted in this thread, I thought you said you would bow out of this discussion?

@Jabbdo: Stormshield for 25pts for Mephiston? Or halo + jump pack for 30? Are you daft? Mephiston is fine as he is because he doesn't have an invulnerable save and because he is dependent on his psychic powers. And you want to take these weaknesses away for 30 pts? You would break the game with such sillyness.

I dont consider myself daft, no.

I know Mephiston is fine, I was merely attempting to begin discussion on a possible reasonable invulnerable save for him to receive. Obviously this was foolish of me, as Meph should apparently NEVER be given an invul.

Sorry for my speculation.

Mephistons stats would have to go down considerably in order for an invulnerable save 4++ or better to be at all balanced on him. With his current stats, you're right, he should never have an invulnerable. its the only thing that makes him even remotely balanced.

This thread just needs to be locked now. Too many sensitive folks around this issue.

shrike wrote:I had the DH one, but I can't find it.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1050287a_Codex__Daemonhunters

Here Shrike, have a merry Christmas...

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:This thread just needs to be locked now. Too many sensitive folks around this issue.

?? IMO this discussion has been very civilized compared to some of the Mephiston thread discussions I have seen.

Locking a thread whenever a little disagreement arises is not the way to go.

Jayden63 wrote:I dislike him for the simple reason he brought a stat line to an infantry sized model that has no place what so ever being on an infantry sized model. No 1" base should be T6 W4. There is no game balance justification for his stupidly high Iniative either.

All he did was throw Hero Hammer into even higher levels. Just look at some of the stats on some of the DE characters. The numbers are now reaching levels that should only be reserved for the Star Gods or ultimate warp horror levels. They have no place on what is really just lowly humanoid (genetically/cybernetically enhanced or not).

The fault lies not with Mephiston or others having high stat numbers it is with trying to squeeze godlike beings into a 10 point system and making them balance with the other forces. If you didn't have Greater Daemons and the like in the game this wouldn't be an issue, but who would want that much awesome excluded simply so the stat system would scale better?

Gridge wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:I dislike him for the simple reason he brought a stat line to an infantry sized model that has no place what so ever being on an infantry sized model. No 1" base should be T6 W4. There is no game balance justification for his stupidly high Iniative either.

All he did was throw Hero Hammer into even higher levels. Just look at some of the stats on some of the DE characters. The numbers are now reaching levels that should only be reserved for the Star Gods or ultimate warp horror levels. They have no place on what is really just lowly humanoid (genetically/cybernetically enhanced or not).

The fault lies not with Mephiston or others having high stat numbers it is with trying to squeeze godlike beings into a 10 point system and making them balance with the other forces. If you didn't have Greater Daemons and the like in the game this wouldn't be an issue, but who would want that much awesome excluded simply so the stat system would scale better?

Personally I'd like to see him at a higher points cost, somewhere in the 300 range. I should not have to see him in almost every BA list I play see... The fact is, that I have to focus SOOOO much of my fire/units on him, that I simply can't kill him AND the other 1200 points. Plus he can close the range of the table so fast, he puts bikers to shame...

And look, I'd rather have him on the 40mm base, and have him a terminator sized model, this way he can't obscure himself as well...

Cassuis is T6... I don't see many Vanilla players fielding him... This is because he is only W2. With a 3+ save, and FnP.

In all honesty, it seems like GW merged Cassius and Tirgris, gave him the best of both's statlines, gave the model special psychic powers, and Tigris' gear... BOOM!!! We have Mephiston!

Carnage43 wrote:

You do it wrong.

For example, Ghazkull.

"Ghazzy's Waagh ability is typically discounted as it's not usable 100% of the [time]"

The Waagh is a player-activated ability that can be chosen to activate, essentially, whenever the player wants. It's completely wrong to discount this; if I have Ghaz and you have Meph there is no reason for me not to save the Waagh specifically for close combat with Meph. It's stupid to say that it's applicable in less than 16% of game turns; I choose when to apply it. It is going to be applicable in 100% of game turns where Ghaz and Meph initiate a combat.

You mean, "In my shooting phase". So it doesn't work if Meph charges you (unless you pop it early, in which case meph just waits it out). Like I said, it would be unwise in a gaming situation to save an army wide special movement ability for the fight between Meph and ghazzy. The correct thing would be to use the ability when it benefits your army on the whole the most and just use a boyz squad with a hidden powerfist to whittle Meph a bit. Regardless, Meph won/tied with Waagh up anyways.

This is where you go wrong. Ghazghkull's special Waagh! Can be called at ANY TIME, including during the opponent's assault phase. That automatically makes Ghazghkull Fearless and gives him a 2+ Invulnerable save.

In addition, Ghazghkull is fielded in a Battlewagon. Always. This gives him a huge assault range when he calls the Waagh; 12" move, 2" diembark, 2" base, 6" Waagh!, 1-6" charge = 23-28". That means that against Mephiston he has a pretty damn decent chance of getting the charge; the BA player will have to be very light on his feet to stay away, and if he's trying to his options are very limited. I would actually say that Ghazghkull is a lot more likely to get the charge, since he's in a transport and Meph is prancing around outside.

So, if Ghazzy gets the charge;

Round 1; Meph swings; 4 hits, 4 wounds, Ghazzy saves on a 2+ and suffers a fractional wound. Say he takes one.

Ghazzy swings; 7 attacks, 3.5 hits, 3 wounds (2.9166), Meph takes 3 wounds.

Round 2; Meph swings; 4 hits, 4 wounds, fractional wound taken. Total now for Ghazzy is less than 1.5; he has at least two, most likely three wounds remaining.

Ghazzy swings; 5 attacks, 2.5 hits, 2 wounds (2.0833). Meph bites the dust. Ghazghkull rampages onward, unfazed.

Please note that this assumes that Meph gets off all the psychic powers he needs to be as buff as possible. Ghazghkull still stomps him into the mud on the charge.

If they go to a third round, Meph scores another 4 wounds, and Ghazzy has to save with a 5+. Then Meph most likely (but not always) wins.


If Meph gets the charge, the odds are in his favor about 60/40; he wins in the third round with 1 wound remaining.


This is, of course, not counting the Nobz that are sitting in that BW with Ghazghkull, assuming that they have run off to trash the rest of the army while their boss has his fun. If they accompany him, Meph goes down hard.