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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1337159/Glastonburys-2000-year-old-Holy-Thorn-Tree-hacked-vandals.html

Kind of saddening to see this pointless action.

Wait, Joseph of Arimathea hangs around Israel for a while then travels across the entire Roman Empire to plant his staff in a backwater province in England? Go figure.

Still, don't see why anyone would want to damage a community's heritage. A thoughtless, harmful act that served no purpose but to upset.

While I don't really consider this tree a "sacred" site. It is a shame that this tree was destroyed for the people that did. I found it interesting that the tree had once before been chopped down by the puritans, during the English Civil war.

GG

Whoever did it is a d-bag.

I was unaware the current tree wasn't the original. Hopefully they can plant a new one. I sad hearing about the 16th century church burned down in Finland. This is more depressing...

LordofHats wrote:I was unaware the current tree wasn't the original. Hopefully they can plant a new one. I said hearing about the 16th century church burned down in Finland. This is more depressing...

That was probably Atheists, Scandinavia has a huge problem with very aggressive Atheists who have burned down a lot of churches.

Stormrider wrote:

LordofHats wrote:I was unaware the current tree wasn't the original. Hopefully they can plant a new one. I said hearing about the 16th century church burned down in Finland. This is more depressing...

That was probably Atheists, Scandinavia has a huge problem with very aggressive Atheists who have burned down a lot of churches.

Angry Angry Atheists?

Wow. That really sucks. I mean seriously!

My understanding is that the situation in Scandinavia is apparently related to Black Metal bands and neo-paganism, not atheists. A lot of it happened the 90's and in Norway. The one I'm thinking of happened in 07 I think, and I only ever saw one article on it and have never heard anything else since.

Oh, well carry on then. I do remember a lead singer of a Black metal band (honestly can remember which one) being sent away for life because he torched a couple churches.

generalgrog wrote:While I don't really consider this tree a "sacred" site. It is a shame that this tree was destroyed for the people that did.

That pretty much sums up my feelings.

Same. Its really too bad that someone did this for no good reason. They obviously wanted to make people angry.

The guy that burnaed down all the churches in norway is called Varg Vikernes. He was released from prison last year after serving a murder sentance(most likely spelled wrong).

And regarding the burning of the churches it's a loss win sitaution becouse the goverment pays and builds new ones.

saitani wrote:
The guy that burnaed down all the churches in norway is called Varg Vikernes. He was released from prison last year after serving a murder sentance(most likely spelled wrong).

And regarding the burning of the churches it's a loss win sitaution becouse the goverment pays and builds new ones.

Thanks for the clarification

saitani wrote:
He was released from prison last year after serving a murder sentence.

And this is why we can't have nice things.

Ok Mr. X your a convicted arsonist and murderer, we are going to let you go if you promise not to be a bad boy ever again...

Really?

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Stormrider wrote:

LordofHats wrote:I was unaware the current tree wasn't the original. Hopefully they can plant a new one. I said hearing about the 16th century church burned down in Finland. This is more depressing...

That was probably Atheists, Scandinavia has a huge problem with very aggressive Atheists who have burned down a lot of churches.

Angry Angry Atheists?

There's something new.

Its sad news, terrible in fact, but so is all needless vandalism. And of course the perpetrators should be punished to the full extent of the law, but saying "its the atheists" is absolutely ridiculous. Im an atheist, but oddly enough i genuinelly love Churches, i can always appreciate the architecture and the effort that was put into them, and i regularly visit the famous one in my City.



York Minster if anyone is interested.

No educated man would want to destroy something beautiful or of historic interest. It was more than likely done by scummy teenage vandals, for no other reason than it was there, and some of these ridiculous comments are typical of brainwashed (almost always American) Christians who wish to demonise people that dont hold to their big book of desert fables.

Atheists are nice people, and statistically are less likely to commit crimes than believers. Deal with it chaps!

Who do you guys honestly think would be more likely to needlessly wreck something?!

These guys..



or these guys!?



Be honest.

I think Christianity is still way ahead in the area of destroying religious sites & shrines However taking out the tree was a moronic thing to do.

http://www.glastonburypeople.co.uk/groups/generaldiscussion/Historic-Glastonbury-landmark-attacked-vandals/story-10355174-detail/story.html

This means that with the stump still intact the tree should grow back in due course, although we won't know until the spring.

..well, let's hope so anyway.

hmm...

I am from Australia and visited the Holy Thorn tree as part of my journey to various holy places- it was a highlight of my trip, and I have a photo of the original tree. I would hope that the locals will find time to take the broken pieces and utilise these to ensure that more trees are allowed to grow, bearing in mind that when the original was hacked in the time of Cromwell, pieces of the Holy Thorn also survived in other places. Australia has for years depended upon the Queen and her Christian faith to ensure that this country never fell into the condition that the US has done, with the loss of its integrity and denigration of its faith (regular blasphemy is the go over there). It should be nipped in the bud and an appropriate response from the local community to ensure that people there will remain resolute and carry on the fine tradition of so many centuries of faith. JOHN D. DIQUE, BRISBANE.

..."nipped in the bud"...he's gotta be trolling.

@mattyChavs can be atheists too. Frankly you have a rose tinted view of atheism Matty. Persecution is alive and kicking here in the Uk. I know this for a fact because a friend of mine was stabbed to death for being a Christian and I myself have suffered abuse enough times. and no you dont need to do or say antything to deserve this, being known as what you are is often enough.
It's nothing new, in fact on a far milder level just being a Christian here on Dakka is enough to become a magnet for accusation or trolling.
In fact just a couple of weeks ago you accused me of hating Islamics because I was Christian, wheras in fact I hate Islamic fundamentalism (subtle difference) for clear reasons and little different from why you also do. Those conclujsions were clearly stated to, but that didnt stop you from conclusing instead that I came to them instead 'because I was a Christian'.


Killing trees.
Saying that I have no reason to expect or suspect that militant atheism had anything to do with chopping down the tree. The Daily Mail hasn't either, but that wont stop them drawing that conclusion. Islamics might do this sort of thing, but they tend to violate war memorials instead for the dual reason that statues are 'idolotry' and anything military is considered a target due to the Gulf war.

Historic trees are jugular strikes for certain types of vandal, I remember many such outrages in the press. Without Googling the ones I remember of at the top of my head: the Treaty Oak poisoned by a vandal, a specific tree also in the US considered sacred to a native Americans by a disgruntled lumberjack. This tree had a legend behind it that its loss would signal the end of the tribe, the vandal disappeared sometime after the act and is still missing. Two years ago the remains of the Wickerman (a sort of tree) used for the 1973 film were cut down and stolen by suspected souvenier hunters.

There was a case local to me. in Watford there was an empty plot of land in what used to be the Cassiobury House Estate. The parts of the estate not taken over as a muniipal park were built over with luxury housing. A housing development suroiuhnded a ploy of land preserved because of a large tree planted by Sir Walter Raleigh from a seed brought back from the Americas. as the tree was still very healthy a property developer who owned the land had thugs attack the roots with chains, so thet it fell over during the next winter storm. There were witnesses at ther time, but they were too scared to come forward so the bastard got away with it, waited until the tree collapsed then built houses on the land freed up.

Historic trees are so easy to destroy with a little planning, often remote and it is easy to get away with the crime. Frankly I don't think chavs responsible, chavs would likely be completely unaware the tree had any significance as it cannot play footie or sing in X factor. Normally we are looking at a different type of scum who is a little more clued up, has a festering resentment and pre-plans this sort of activity. the Cassiobury tree was an exception, it was just in the way of someones profits.


Copycat?

In yesterdays student protests some scum set fire to the christimas tree in Tafalgar Square. While I think thev government has really goofed with this policy I am sickened that the students picked that target. For those who do not know the Christmas treein Trafalgar Square is an annual gift from the people of Norway in memory of thosed whot their lives trying to free Norway from ther Nazis. To try and burn the teee is pissing on the memory of veterans and our nation and is a good reason to suppose that the protests are all about defending handouts to scroungers rather than building a future in education.
While unconnected I wonder if the Trafalgar square attack got some little minds going, though it would have made 'sense' to burn the tree instead.

Weather you believe in religious ideals or not, its completely disrespectful to damage/destroy religious things. Period. I hope they find out who did that and punish them something fierce for it

Orlanth, surely that is not the case because i always presumed that if you were a white UK citizen people just sorta presumed that you ARE a Christian?

I have never heard of persecution of Christians because we live in a nation where, unlike America, people arent very vocal about their Religion, and its viewed as more of a private thing. But as a result, dont we just assume that most people are Christians by default?

I mean, almost all of us get baptised, and its not like we feel strongly enough to go get it reversed, im still "C of E" whenever i get asked for example.

And regards rose tinted glasses, could I not put the same to you mate, and just say that you have an unfairly negative view of Atheism? I mean, i am an atheist, but i like Churches, i would never dream of not respectfully bowing my head and shutting up if someone at the table said a prayer (happend this year cos i was at my GFs aunt in CA for thanksgiving!) I still refer to myself as C of E when filling in medical docs or whatever, and i really dont see how my lack of belief in God affects my daily life and my relationship with other people.

Atheism is merely a different view of how the world/universe works, why does it have so many negative stereotypes surrounding it?

The only bit of good news here is that because the tree is not a single landmark, but a generrational landmark. Its loss and rgrowth/replacement is part of its story.

The Puritans ordered it destroyed, now Vandals have destroyed it. Renew it and give the vandals the finger.

Like many fake relics the tree's history is likely to have begun in the early medieval era. Perhaps the first seed or sapling was brought back from Outremer during the age of the crusades and its legend was quickly backdated. This could account for how the Glastonbury tree was where it was.

What I particularly dont like is that the crime will not be taken very seriously because its 'only a tree'. Frankly I find cultural rape (which is what this is) worse than raping people, and if the courts dont prosecute rapists then they need to have their gonads removed by members of the public with knives. But enough of empty wishes.

Might have been for other reasons...

Avon and Somerset police have begun an investigation but because there was no tree preservation order on the Holy Thorn, it means the vandals are unlikely to be prosecuted. The land on which the Holy Thorn stood is owned by Edward James, who was arrested this week in connection with an investigation into failed currency exchange firm Crown Currency Exchange, of which he is a director.

According to the administrator’s report, Crown Currency collapsed owing £16million with little more than £3million in the bank. Last night there was speculation that the attack on the Holy Thorn may have been part of a vendetta against him.

I don't know about that Matty, as the comedian once said:

"I've met Catholics, Jews, and Muslims. Some have been good, some have been bad. But why is it every atheist I've met has been a prick?"

I mean, almost all of us get baptised

Actually, IIRC something like only 20% of the population get baptised these days.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Might have been for other reasons...

Avon and Somerset police have begun an investigation but because there was no tree preservation order on the Holy Thorn, it means the vandals are unlikely to be prosecuted. The land on which the Holy Thorn stood is owned by Edward James, who was arrested this week in connection with an investigation into failed currency exchange firm Crown Currency Exchange, of which he is a director.

According to the administrator’s report, Crown Currency collapsed owing £16million with little more than £3million in the bank. Last night there was speculation that the attack on the Holy Thorn may have been part of a vendetta against him.

He owns the site of the tree, but does he generate money from people visiting? If not, I doubt that people that are owed millions would cut down a tree to 'Even the score'. I doubt it greatly.

Frazzled wrote:I don't know about that Matty, as the comedian once said:

"I've met Catholics, Jews, and Muslims. Some have been good, some have been bad. But why is it every atheist I've met has been a prick?"

Ive got to say, I agree with that.

mattyrm wrote:
Atheism is merely a different view of how the world/universe works, why does it have so many negative stereotypes surrounding it?

Because atheist dickheads spout offensive tripe like this?

mattyrm wrote:typical of brainwashed (almost always American) Christians who wish to demonise people that dont hold to their big book of desert fables.

mattyrm wrote:Orlanth, surely that is not the case because i always presumed that if you were a white UK citizen people just sorta presumed that you ARE a Christian?

Technically, as in christian based culture, which is what your describing. Funnily enough the ex-nominal Christian base are often the people I get the most grief from, not Jews or Moslems. Not once has an Islamic come up to me and said this or that because I was infidel. Actually most Islamics have a measure of backhanded respect for actual practicing Christians. The weakness they see in the west comes from the ideas of godlessness, loose living and leftist dogma etc.

mattyrm wrote:
And regards rose tinted glasses, could I not put the same to you mate, and just say that you have an unfairly negative view of Atheism?

I dont think so. I am fully aware that some 'Christians' go off the wall. I also know of plenty of decent minded atheists. Though the only formal atheism I see is via the Humanist society and on the odd occassion we meet i am yet to find one who hasd not treated me politely and respectfully.
The atheists who cause real trouble arent real atheists, and you can disown them no less than I can disown Westboro Baptists et al. They are just God-haters, which is a difference. The sad thing is there are actually a fair few of them, far more than the religious equivalent outside of dodgy mosques.

I wanted to challenge the idea that your definition of atheists as nice intellectuals and the opposite of chavs. Atheism is a broad based ideal and yes some are quiet intellectuals, others are something else. atheists can be educated, but atheist doesnt necessarily mean educated. People arent atheist because they understand the universe or are better educated, they may well be as individuals, but they are atheists because they choose to believe in no God. Not all do with the intellectual integrity you like to display, and others are downright nasty.