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Tend to agree Ulver.
By the amount of ribbons on the tree, it looks to be important to pagans. Pagans would be more upset about this than likely to commit the act.
Atheists would do this because?

The ribbons aren't daft btw
It is a very old custom, a bit like Buddhist prayer flags

Ulver is correct. I said that pages ago. Its the chavs man!

It happens everywhere. There was a piece on South Today last night about chavs who had vandalised a memorial to the Titanic's wireless operator, cracking a fountain, tearing up paving bricks etc. Caused about £8000 of mindless damage. Sad really.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:The ribbons aren't daft btw
It is a very old custom, a bit like Buddhist prayer flags

Yeah I know* I was just being flippant.



*I know they're not daft, I didn't know owt about the custom

In future please give appropriate flippant warnings

sebster wrote:
You know what, I seriously don't fething get this line of argument. Are you claiming that if you didn't believe in God and divine punishment, you'd be going around killing people for the change in their pockets, whenever you felt you could get away with it? Seriously?

Because I am an atheist, but I still have empathy, I still know that when I do bad things other people suffer, and whether or not there is a God to punish me, I still consider the welfare of other people when I take my actions.

And you have two choices when it comes to why you have that empathy. Do we criticize the monkey when he beats up and kills the other monkey with a stick? No we say it is acting naturally. Do we criticize a lion for killing and eating a beautiful zebra? No, we say the zebra is acting naturally. If athiessim was consistent and really believed that we are just a higher form of animal, brought about by natural processes, running off of preprogrammed gene impulses. Then it is entirely inconsistent to criticize mankind for performing evil acts. If we are just animals acing naturally, why does it all of a sudden become "evil" to act like animals?

I prefer the other option, and that is that we are not animals, and are acting out of the sin nature within us.We have empathy because God gave us that empathy. We have a battle going on inside of us. Paul the apostle pointed this out in the epistle to the Romans chapter 7.

Rom-7:14-25(NIV)
14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

GG

generalgrog wrote:If we are just animals acing naturally, why does it all of a sudden become "evil" to act like animals?

Because we're using our natural tendency to reason to come to the conclusion that it's better for the survival of the species if we don't kill eachother and stop stealing things, but rather work together.

If we are using the bible as an authority can we also use the Bhagavad Gita as well? The Upanishads also had a few things to say about human nature, will you take those as facts as well GG?

If i could be arsed I could quote the Upanishads back at you GG.

Or the Origin of Species.

or Wind in the Willows

or Watership Down

but I can't.

Paul 33:19
For the Lord hath said that he that doth talk out of their buttocks in my name shall be eternally fricasseed in their own body fluids and sharp pointy things poked into their privvies.

generalgrog wrote: If athiessim was consistent and really believed that we are just a higher form of animal, brought about by natural processes, running off of preprogrammed gene impulses. Then it is entirely inconsistent to criticize mankind for performing evil acts. If we are just animals acing naturally, why does it all of a sudden become "evil" to act like animals?

I prefer the other option, and that is that we are not animals, and are acting out of the sin nature within us.We have empathy because God gave us that empathy. We have a battle going on inside of us. Paul the apostle pointed this out in the epistle to the Romans chapter 7.

We are not acting out our nature to sin. We evolved, became self aware and created language then invented morality to keep our petty differences in check such as jealousy and the desire to conquer in order to control more of what we perceive should be ours. That is what we see as sin. Our nature is to be more sociable, act in packs, pick our noses and reproduce. Sometimes both of the latter at the same time.

If we had not evolved we would still be in packs swinging through trees and being able to bite our own toe nails.

generalgrog wrote:

sebster wrote:
You know what, I seriously don't fething get this line of argument. Are you claiming that if you didn't believe in God and divine punishment, you'd be going around killing people for the change in their pockets, whenever you felt you could get away with it? Seriously?

Because I am an atheist, but I still have empathy, I still know that when I do bad things other people suffer, and whether or not there is a God to punish me, I still consider the welfare of other people when I take my actions.

And you have two choices when it comes to why you have that empathy. Do we criticize the monkey when he beats up and kills the other monkey with a stick? No we say it is acting naturally. Do we criticize a lion for killing and eating a beautiful zebra? No, we say the zebra is acting naturally. If athiessim was consistent and really believed that we are just a higher form of animal, brought about by natural processes, running off of preprogrammed gene impulses. Then it is entirely inconsistent to criticize mankind for performing evil acts. If we are just animals acing naturally, why does it all of a sudden become "evil" to act like animals?

First off, your examples are flawed. Monkeys don't beat up and kill other monkeys with sticks. Some apes use tools (like sticks) however. But even apes don't do that randomly; they fight other tribes of apes in territorial disputes. There's a purpose to it.

Second off, your premise is flawed. The behavior we see as "evil" is not really the same as functional, adaptive animal behavior.

We criticise people for committing "evil" acts because they harm the community, and threaten (either directly or by extension) our own safety, security, and prosperity. Humankind is a larger "tribe" than a group of apes in the jungle. Thanks to our highly developed brains and abilities to communicate, we are all capable of working in harmony, more or less. Obviously we still have nations and other separations which encourage us to behave more competitively, but for the most part most nations DO work together and compete peacefully. This is all part and parcel of our superior natural & evolutionary gifts, which have allowed us to rule the earth over pretty much every other species. A person who steals and murders is acting against our and their own interests as a thinking, speaking, social animal. They are NOT acting like a healthy animal, which typically make good choices to their own benefit.

Sebster is doing you the honor of engaging you with his human reality, and acting you to recognize it. Atheists are perfectly capable of making moral choices and recognizing the right thing to do, even without a deity threatening them with eternal punishment or the promise of eternal reward.

I don't think that's the only justification given in Christianity, though; or at least I hope not. Jesus reiterated the old proverb about treating others as you wish to be treated (Matthew 7:12, Luke 6:31). As noted this was proverbial before Jesus. The Golden Rule is a concept strongly embodying how we work and prosper as social animals, and as might be expected, has been articulated all over the world for thousands of years, in many different cultures.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Rule

But what if they are...flying monkeys?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SESI19h4wDo

If you say that we have evolved a sense of morality because it benefits us, where is your proof of this? This sounds more like philosophy or a religious doctrine than anything else. See...... athiests do you use faith.

GG

We created a sense of morality once we started to become self aware and started to develop emotional links with actions. The proof? Really? Are you serious?

Elmodiddly wrote:We created a sense of morality once we started to become self aware and started to develop emotional links with actions. The proof? Really? Are you serious?

Precisely... where is your proof that us humans created this.

GG

generalgrog wrote:

Elmodiddly wrote:We created a sense of morality once we started to become self aware and started to develop emotional links with actions. The proof? Really? Are you serious?

Precisely... where is your proof that us humans created this.

GG

OK I give in, it was the dolphins.

generalgrog wrote:

Elmodiddly wrote:We created a sense of morality once we started to become self aware and started to develop emotional links with actions. The proof? Really? Are you serious?

Precisely... where is your proof that us humans created this.

GG

Mine's in the bath
It's waterproof

Elmodiddly wrote:

generalgrog wrote:

Elmodiddly wrote:We created a sense of morality once we started to become self aware and started to develop emotional links with actions. The proof? Really? Are you serious?

Precisely... where is your proof that us humans created this.

GG

OK I give in, it was the dolphins.

I'm being serious here..where's your proof that "We created a sense of morality once we started to become self aware and started to develop emotional links with actions"

That's a pretty loaded statement you made, and in a thread like this, you should have some back up evidence... or some thing... before entering the fray.

GG

Where is your evidence that way back in prehistory before the invention of a monotheistic diety there was no morality?

Do you seriously think there was no morality before Judaism?
Go read the Epic of Gilgamesh.

generalgrog wrote:

Elmodiddly wrote:

generalgrog wrote:

Elmodiddly wrote:We created a sense of morality once we started to become self aware and started to develop emotional links with actions. The proof? Really? Are you serious?

Precisely... where is your proof that us humans created this.

GG

OK I give in, it was the dolphins.

I'm being serious here..where's your proof that "We created a sense of morality once we started to become self aware and started to develop emotional links with actions"

That's a pretty loaded statement you made, and in a thread like this, you should have some back up evidence... or some thing... before entering the fray.

GG

Pot kettle black GG?

You entered the fray ages ago and there is not a single shred of evidence for your own personal God.

Which is more likely?

We all evolved a shared mentality because we are pack animals and have always been around other humans, which allows us to empathise with others, and that is why we feel guilty if we do terrible things. Also, we evolved under much harsher conditions, and in much much smaller nomadic groups. Therefore most people in your surrounds would be either related to you, or recognisable friends, who could reciprocate an act of kindness in the future. Some people however have neurological or psychological reasons for not having these feelings and as such have little or no empathy, but generally speaking people would not be happy commiting rape or shagging little kids.

OR.

Magic makes us good, and God puts a conscience into all of us with magic. But sometimes the magic fails, thats why we have rapists. Or God forgets to breathe the conscience into people because he cant be everywhere at once, i mean.. he is only God. He had to rest after 6 days work right? We all get pooped even if we are magic.

Or some people have the magic in them, but they rape anyway because they are "angry" with God, or don't believe in him, but ulitmately it all boils down to magic because it is "outside the realms" of Science, or it is "spiritual"

And everyone would be out raping everyone for fun, but they dont because God will do bad things to us. But we all would if it wasn't for that.


Science and evidence supports all of statement 1. And none of statements 2, 3 and 4.

And leaving all that aside, what do you think common sense tells you?

If i asked my 8 year old nephew i am pretty sure he would get the right answer, he has had a few Science lessons.

Again I am demonstrating your use of faith. Yes I have faith in the Bible, in God. You have faith in philosophical arguments and atheistic ideas. My argument isn't about "proving" the bible but about getting you to realize that you use faith in your belief system.

GG

If this is how you use the word faith, then it is again so broad as to be meaningless.

generalgrog wrote:

That's a pretty loaded statement you made, and in a thread like this, you should have some back up evidence... or some thing... before entering the fray.

GG

Obviously that was my mistake; thinking this was a battle to be had. You step up say "tosh, where's the proof" You might as well ask where is the proof that we invented language.

How's this; I give you a knife and say "That man there - kill him". Would you?

Elmodiddly wrote:How's this; I give you a knife and say "That man there - kill him". Would you?

PROTIP: Don't ask mattyrm that.

generalgrog wrote:If you say that we have evolved a sense of morality because it benefits us, where is your proof of this?

As I've repeatedly stated, there is a crapton of research out there into human and animal behavior, showing evidence of how it likely happened, and proving that one can explain WHY humans would develop morality, regardless of whether or not there is any deity out there. It's not my job to teach it all to you, I'm sorry. Take it up with your college professors. Or do some internet research and then go to the library.

One does not provide "proof" of a scientific theory; one provides evidence. You might as well demand proof of the Theory of Gravity. How about I ask you to prove to me that Gravity is what is holding me and the atmosphere on the Earth? For the sake of argument, I contend that it is the hands of the gods, holding each and every person and thing and molecule of atmosphere on the Earth. How will you prove Gravity?

generalgrog wrote:This sounds more like philosophy or a religious doctrine than anything else. See...... athiests do you use faith.

This is either a total lack of understanding of the scientific method, or just trolling.

And, I repeat, I'm not an atheist. My faith allows me to simultaneously believe that the gods inspire us, AND that we evolved and developed in a way comprehensible to the human mind.

Ahtman wrote:

Elmodiddly wrote:How's this; I give you a knife and say "That man there - kill him". Would you?

PROTIP: Don't ask mattyrm that.

Mattyrm would probably do it then do me because I'm a crab

Here's how much I love these threads:

Mannahnin wrote:

generalgrog wrote:If you say that we have evolved a sense of morality because it benefits us, where is your proof of this?

As I've repeatedly stated, there is a crapton of research out there into human and animal behavior, showing evidence of how it likely happened, and proving that one can explain WHY humans would develop morality, regardless of whether or not there is any deity out there. It's not my job to teach it all to you, I'm sorry. Take it up with your college professors. Or do some internet research and then go to the library.

One does not provide "proof" of a scientific theory; one provides evidence. You might as well demand proof of the Theory of Gravity. How about I ask you to prove to me that Gravity is what is holding me and the atmosphere on the Earth? For the sake of argument, I contend that it is the hands of the gods, holding each and every person and thing and molecule of atmosphere on the Earth. How will you prove Gravity?

generalgrog wrote:This sounds more like philosophy or a religious doctrine than anything else. See...... athiests do you use faith.

This is either a total lack of understanding of the scientific method, or just trolling.

And, I repeat, I'm not an atheist. My faith allows me to simultaneously believe that the gods inspire us, AND that we evolved and developed in a way comprehensible to the human mind.

You and athiests have faith in the scientific method. This crap ton of evidence you spout, is all based on faith. You keep giving me examples of evidence, and philosophy. All of your posts are proving my point. Thank you very much.

GG

generalgrog wrote:If you say that we have evolved a sense of morality because it benefits us, where is your proof of this? This sounds more like philosophy or a religious doctrine than anything else. See...... athiests do you use faith.

GG

It can be proved with mathematical models.